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Testimonial (00:00): I was like, I found it. I found it. This is what I’ve been looking for. I can honestly say it is genuinely changed the way I run my business. It’s changed the results that I’m seeing. It’s changed my engagement with clients. It’s changed my engagement with the team. I couldn’t be happier. Honestly. It’s the best investment I ever made.

(00:50): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Seth Godin, teacher, author, and entrepreneur. With over three decades of experience inspiring people to level up and make a difference. He’s published 20 bestselling books translated into nearly 40 languages, including most recently, the Song of Significance, the Practice, and this is Marketing. Today we’re going to talk about a new book called This is Strategy, make Better Plans. It comes out dependent upon when you’re listening to this in mid-October of 2024, October 22nd, to be specific, he is a inducted into the Gorilla Marketing Hall of Fame, direct Marketing Hall of Fame, the Marketing Hall of Fame. And today I’m going to officially induct him into the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast Hall of Fame as well. So Seth, welcome to the show,

Seth Godin (01:47): John, like the actual duct tape, your podcast is really useful and it lasts. And last, thank you for having me once again.

John Jantsch (01:56): You bet. Been doing this for a while and I think that I’ve lost track, but this is at least your sixth appearance and I always enjoy it. Always look forward to it. Me too. So if I were to gather a panel of 10 people to put them in a room and ask them what is strategy? I know for experience, I would get 10 different answers. Maybe 12. Maybe 12. You’re right. And some of them would be nuanced. Some of them would just be flatrock. So I wonder if you could, at least for a baseline, what is your definit?

Seth Godin (02:29): Right. So that’s why I had to write a book and why it’s called This is Strategy. I want to answer that question. It’s not tactics, it’s not follow all the steps in the plan and then you’ll get your result. We need that. But that’s not strategy. Strategy is a philosophy of becoming. It is our awareness of the systems around us and our decisions that we make to use those systems to help us Cause the change we seek to make, it is an assertion about the future and it gets better if we talk about it.

John Jantsch (03:06): Sometimes I talk about how everybody has different notions of it and a lot of the confusion, I think people come by honestly. I mean Google the term marketing strategy and you will get said lists of tactics from what is supposed to be an authority. So I really get it. But your definition, a philosophy of becoming. Do you find that, while I think that is an amazing definition, do you find that people struggle with Can’t get my arms around that idea. I need something more tangible.

Seth Godin (03:38): For sure. That’s why it’s a book and not a blog post that people who have a strategy that is working look like they’re smarter than everybody else the same way. Good waves make a surfer seem better than they are. And our blindness to the available strategies is the main reason why we get stuck. And so there are countless examples and questions that we can go through to help us see what we couldn’t see before, and that once we learn to bring empathy to our work, everything about it gets easier.

John Jantsch (04:20): Yeah. So you jumped ahead of me. I was going to challenge you on the empathy word because quite frankly, I think a lot of times when people think about strategy, all they think about is how are we’re going to compete? And sometimes that doesn’t have a whole lot of empathy in it. So how should we be thinking rather than that limited view?

Seth Godin (04:40): Okay, so there is kindness and empathy, but I’m not making a kindness argument here. What I am saying is you might want to be the king of the world in charge of everything, but you are not

(04:53): That other individuals and organizations have agency, they can make a choice. And so when you wrote your breakthrough book about marketing, you wrote it in English that showed empathy for the reader you were seeking to serve because if you had written it in Czech, they wouldn’t have been able to read it no matter how much you insisted they do. So what we have to do is acknowledge that the people we are seeking to do business with, we are here to serve them. And they don’t know what we know. They don’t see what we see. And that’s okay. If we don’t go to where they are, they’re definitely not going to come to where we are. And that has to be built into our understanding of the choices and the systems and the decisions and the time as we compete because you don’t have to have pity for your competitors, but it really helps to have empathy for anyone who has agency.

John Jantsch (05:51): So again, in my world, probably to some extent in your world, although yours is a little broader, more diverse maybe in some cases, audiences, I talked to a lot of marketers and so when they think strategy, it’s a business strategy for gaining more customers or something along those lines. Would you also say, well no, this is something every individual needs to be thinking about. I mean, we all need people strategies.

Seth Godin (06:16): Well, from a very practical point of view, let’s start with the 17-year-old who lived down the street who I helped get into college, and he just made the most expensive financial decision of his life. It’s going to put him a quarter of a million dollars in debt. And he did it without a strategy. He decided to go to a place that isn’t worth the money and isn’t going to pay off because he was judging it on what did it feel like to visit the college campus and how will that window sticker make him feel? Well, if he had said out loud before he started, that was his goal. It would be coherent, but he didn’t say it out loud. It was intuitive. He didn’t really have a strategy. He was just stumbling in the dark. So we easily become the victim of a credit card company, the victim of someone in our life, in our family who isn’t engaging with us in a way that’s productive with our boss if we don’t have a strategy.

(07:19): So when I got out of business school, my strategy was super simple. I want to get a job at the fastest growing company that will hire me. I don’t care what they make because if it’s the fast growing company, I’m more likely to find a smart boss and I’m more likely to get exposed to interesting problems. And that two years will set me up for the next thing I want to do. And the person sitting next to me in class, their strategy was, business school is really expensive. I’m going to go work for the most prestigious, highest paying job I can get. And time demonstrated that I probably had a better strategy because the trajectory of my career over time was different. And so when we invest in time as we make these choices, whether it’s understanding what the admissions office wants or understanding what our partner wants or understanding what the customers for our locksmith company want, it’s all the same thing. It’s do we see the game? Do we see time? Do we see systems? And what moves are we going to make?

John Jantsch (08:27): So you mentioned system, so I was definitely going to go there as well. You talk about systems delivering value. I’ve gone as far as saying the system for many business is the strategy

Seth Godin (08:41): You’re using system I think a little differently than me. Tell me what you mean by system.

John Jantsch (08:45): When I created Duct Tape Marketing, I actually decided people needed a marketing system. And that if I could at least come in and say, look, here’s something we can do and we could repeat for a lot of folks and we’re going to install a system, which people were like, why didn’t I think of a system for marketing? That’s how I’m using it. And that’s been my body of work

Seth Godin (09:06): And that’s super important. But the reason you need one is you are trying to make a change in a system outside of your company and having a persistent tool inside your company is the only way to do it. So what are the systems we’re talking about an example I like to share how much should a wedding cost? And the answer is exactly what my best friend spent plus $20. And that’s why weddings cost a hundred thousand dollars. Now, the wedding industrial complex is a system, all these people in the system making decisions that if the system didn’t exist would seem absurd, right? But they’re not absurd because they are part of something. The healthcare system in the United States does not make health. It makes treatments. And there are all these, well-meaning people in the system, but they make decisions that don’t make any sense outside the system, but inside the system make perfect sense. So if we’re going to dance with any existing system, we need an internal system. So we can repeatedly do our work, but we better be able to see what the system in the outside world does in order to be able to make a change there.

John Jantsch (10:24): You make what I still, I’ve actually said this in various ways for many years, ports that you actually as a business get to choose your customers. And you have said that, and I think a lot of people are like, that’s completely wrong. That’s not how it works. The customer is always right. I just have to find enough people to give me money and whatever they want I need to create. And this notion of choosing your own customers to some people seems a little elitist almost is when it comes to business. But boy, is it a much more enjoyable way to do business.

Seth Godin (10:56): Yeah, well, this is a breakthrough and of course it’s elitist. You deserve that. You deserve to spend your days offering this thing. You’re offering to the people who will appreciate it and engage with you in a way that’s helpful. When you take anyone off the street, you have sacrificed your agency and vision for randomness. So David Chang’s a famous chef and he’s been in the news for many years. Before he was famous, he had a tiny restaurant in New York City called Momo Fuco and it hadn’t been reviewed yet. It only had 40 seats and you could sit at the counter. I don’t know how I stumbled on it is where my kids were younger, the four of us, my wife and kids would get in the electric car drive to Manhattan and go there for lunch on Saturday. And we would sit at the counter and I haven’t had meat in 40 years and I would say, I would like the Brussels sprouts.

(11:53): Please leave out the bacon that benefits both of us. You don’t have to waste the bacon and I can eat them. And the first three weeks we went, I loved it. And the fourth week, the guy behind the counter, I’m pretty sure it was David said, there’s a vegetarian restaurant a few doors down. I think going forward, you guys would be happier there. We put this on the menu, we like bacon, thanks for coming, but don’t come back. And that was the day in my book, he became David Chang because he said, I’m going to build a restaurant not for people who are hungry. There are countless restaurants for people who are hungry. I’m going to build a restaurant for people who want to see what David Chang wants to make. And you can do that in any line of work or you can be a commodity. Those are your two choices. If you want to be a commodity, you got to put up with whoever’s going to give you the money. But if you pick your customers, you can pick your future.

John Jantsch (12:52): I’m not sure if there’s the flip side or if this is actually to me an advancement of that same idea. You also talk about choosing your competition. And I think that one is in some ways even more brilliant because I don’t think anybody thinks about that idea. It’s like, no, this is who I compete with as opposed to, oh, this is the category I’m going to actually claim.

Seth Godin (13:13): Yeah, right. So a lot of your customers, John, actually want a job without a boss. There’s nothing shameful in that they’re freelancers at scale. They’re not entrepreneurs who are claiming an unfolding future. And so they find a category where they can put out a sign and wait for the customers to come. They’ve already determined who their competitors are. They intuitively picked. But if you decide that you are going to compete with scammers and spammers and people who are always fast talking and racing to the bottom, you’re either going to do that or you’re going to fail, right? You pick them that when you decide to be a plastic surgeon in Columbus, Ohio and there’s only one other plastic surgeon, your practice is going to be different than if you’re a plastic surgeon in Park Avenue in New York. You pick your competitors and then you pick the standards that your customers are going to measure you by.

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Seth Godin (15:38): Exactly. That’s exactly right. Positioning is a generous model. It is not differentiation. It is saying to your customers, if you are looking for this is what I have. If you’re looking for that, let me give you the fun number of those people.

(15:54): And there’s a story, it may be apocryphal, I don’t think it is, of several of companies. Were trying to build big financial institutions, people like Fidelity, et cetera. And one of them did some research and discovered that 80% of their customer service calls were coming from 5% of their customers. And that these customers tended to have low balances. So they decided to write all of these people a very respectful letter saying, we don’t think we’re the place for you. We are having trouble serving this. Here are the phone numbers of three of our competitors. Please find someone who’s a better fit. Well, when you move those customers away, you freed up your entire customer service team and you’ve established your position in the marketplace, which is we are here for people of a certain kind of resource and a certain kind of question. And those people over there, that’s where you should go if you’re a different kind of customer.

John Jantsch (16:49): So when it really comes down to it, people who read books, love tools, they love like, oh, this philosophy of becoming is great, but what are the 40 questions that I need to ask in order to develop my own strategy? You happen to actually have that for us. So how did you decide on what that very curated list should be?

Seth Godin (17:11): Well, it’s not that curated because I could have had 40 different questions. It’s designed to prompt you down the path. And the way I did it was after I wrote the first draft of the book, I made 45 videos to become a Udemy course, which is in the world now. And then I had 350 people inside the purple.space community. I gave them access to the course for free and watched them do the course. And it was very cool to be able to watch other people have interactions about it. I could see where they were getting stuck and instead of me diving in and clarifying, I just clarified it in the book. And what I have found is it asking simple questions. Who’s it for? What’s it for? What is the change I seek to make? Who else has done this before me? What assets do I need?

(18:05): What do I need to learn? These are very straightforward questions that we avoid every day. And I know this because I spend time talking to friends about their projects. And when I bring up any of these questions, they get slightly anxious because left unsaid, you’re off the hook, left unsaid. Well, whoever needs it. But if you have to say it, then if it doesn’t come true, you’ve made a claim that you’re responsible for. But if you’re going to spend your limited days on this project, please say it to just two or three people. Say it to claude.ai, own it and see what other people say back.

John Jantsch (18:49): It’s funny, I work with a lot of organizations and I’m sure you have as well. You take one look at me, you’re like, well, it’s obvious what you need to do. And yet they have really brilliant people inside the organization that are like, oh my God, that’s brilliant. Why didn’t somebody tell us that? Why is it so hard for people that are in it every day to see strategy or even rather than just like, here’s what we do, phone’s still ringing. Keep churning.

Seth Godin (19:18): Yeah, well, so there are many differences between you and me. You are way more patient than I am.

(19:23): And that’s one of the reasons why I have never done a day of consulting in my life. Because in person, when someone hires a consultant, they often want them to solve their problem. And what you have the patience to understand is only they can solve their problem and your job is to create the conditions for them to see how to do that. But I have sat with people running for president. I’ve sat with people who are billionaires, people who run giant organizations, friends, and they have no clue what their strategy is. And if you point out what a possible strategy might be, you can watch their eyes light up and they realize someone just showed them a path when they thought they had to go through the woods. And then inevitably they get off the path and they go back to the woods because it’s hard to say no in the short run. So you can say yes in the long run, it’s easier to say yes to the urgency of right now and then have to dig your way out of a hole later. You have no choice. And so strategy is this affirmative action, this decision-making to say, I have the internal discipline to turn that down so I can do that instead.

John Jantsch (20:38): Yeah, that’s one of the brilliant things about having a clear view of what your strategy is. It actually helps tell you what not to do. Does it?

Seth Godin (20:48): Yeah. That’s actually the hardest part.

John Jantsch (20:50): And I think that’s what people are struggling, especially entrepreneurs are struggling with the most. There’s so many things they can do and there’s no filter for what they should do.

Seth Godin (20:59): So they end up doing mediocre this, mediocre this, but at least they did everything. So in my case, when Twitter showed up, I was early, could have had quite a big following on Twitter. And I said, but if I say yes to that, what am I going to do less of? Am I willing to become a mediocre blogger to become a pretty good twitterer? And I was like, no, that’s not my choice to be there. It’s my choice to be here. Let me focus on the thing that fuels my strategy as opposed to serving somebody who’s decided I would make them happier if I did that instead.

John Jantsch (21:37): Yeah. And as it turns out, you were so good, you ended up having a big follow on Twitter anyway without even participating there. It was amazing. No, brilliant. So would you say that one of the things that holds people back, call it mistake, call it a choice, is that generally speaking, especially a going entity, there is going to be some pain before there is gain to actually adopt a clear strategy because you’re going to have to invest. And it’s not a short-term effect.

Seth Godin (22:09): I think there’s already pain and you’ve justified the pain because doing your work and there’s going to be a shift for sure, there’s going to be taking a deep breath and saying, we’re not going to do that anymore. So there’s a lot of things to criticize about Jack Welch, but one of the smart things that Jack Welch did was their strategy is if we can’t be number one or number two in a category, we’re not going to do it anymore. So that’s why General Electric stopped making toasters

John Jantsch (22:41): Because

Seth Godin (22:42): They said, we can make a pretty good toaster and an okay return, but let’s just sell this toaster division and focus on someplace where we can win. That was painful, but it ended up, at least for a while, being a really smart move because being a meaningful specific is better than being a wandering generality that can fuel many strategy choices.

John Jantsch (23:05): So the last, I’ll end up here with a timing question. The last decade at least, I mean, I’ve been doing this 30 years. We didn’t have the internet in marketing when I started, right? I, so we can talk about how much has changed, but the last decade, I feel like as every coming decade, it just feels like the speed of change accelerates. So how big is a lot of times when people make a great strategic decision, it was just good time. So is there an element of luck to this? Because who knows what the next quarter’s going to bring?

Seth Godin (23:42): There’s a huge amount of luck. What we’re trying to figure out is how can you make the deck as stacked as you can before you have to pick a card? And the thing about change is this systems change when they have to, not when they want to. And what forces the system to change is a shift in communications information or technology because systems depend on those things to maintain their status quo. Well, guess what? The biggest systems change in history is happening right this second. And when systems confront the combination of climate and ai, they are going to be transformed. If you show up when a system is in flux and embrace what the system is about to become, it’s like being a surfer who gets a perfect wave, that learning to use the systems when they’re shifting to help the system get what it’s wanted all along, that two hours of work will pay off in 2000 hours of benefit. And this is the moment to do that.

John Jantsch (24:53): I said that was my last question, but then you opened up the whole box on what you’re doing on climate. We could do a whole show, I’m sure you have done entire shows. Can you give sort of a one minute invitation to people to find out more about the work you’re doing?

Seth Godin (25:08): So I volunteered for a year and a half full time and built the Carbon Almanac with 1900 other people. It’s at the carbon almanac.org and it is a judgment free book, 97,000 words, footnoted fact-check illustrated with cartoons. And you can look up anything that’s in it, and if you don’t agree, but you need to know, you need see and understand what is actually going on. Carbon in the air is invisible, but easily measured, and it doesn’t match the way we grew up in the world to imagine that the weather is just something that shifts back and forth. The climate is not, the weather and the climate is changing in a way that’s going to create 15 million refugees without homes in the next five years. It’s going to put American cities completely underwater. You don’t have to like it, but it’s happening. So the question is, what will we all do about it? And it’s going to be really hard to make that decision in 20 years, but if you know now what’s coming, it represents not just an urgency, but an enormous opportunity.

John Jantsch (26:20): Well, and if you think the wars over oil have been bad, which we see the wars over water.

Seth Godin (26:25): Yeah,

John Jantsch (26:26): We actually need water. We don’t really need oil. That’s going to be, I’m not sure what it’s going to be anyway, Seth, as always, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop on Duct Tape Marketing podcast. And I know people can find your books anywhere, but there any place you’d want to invite people to find out more about this as stretch?

Seth Godin (26:48): I built a page at Seth’s blog slash tis, and there’s some videos and links and other things there. We made this really fun deck that has 5 million combinations of prompts in it. Add a collectible chocolate bar, my first one ever with a trading card and everything inside. Very fun.

John Jantsch (27:05): Well again, appreciate you taking a moment to stop by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days again, out there on the road.

Mobile vs. Desktop: Where Do You Convert?

Mobile vs. Desktop: Where Do You Convert? written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Steve Oriola

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Steve Oriola, CEO of Unbounce. Steve Oriola is a tenured CEO with over two decades of experience scaling dynamic B2B SaaS platforms, including Act!, Constant Contact, Pipedrive, and Julius. He recently led Unbounce through the acquisition of Insightly CRM, in which the two companies effectively merged.

We discuss the findings of a recent benchmark report on CONVERSION RATES. That’s right—we tried to get rid of email, but it looks like it has entered the chat again.

Our conversation covers the importance of simplified copy, the enduring effectiveness of email marketing, the dynamics of mobile versus desktop conversions, and the rise of Instagram as a leading platform for conversions. We also cover the significance of writing at (if you can believe it) a lower grade level for better engagement, the nuances of industry-specific language, and the role of conversion-rate optimization in marketing strategies.

Key Takeaways:

Complex copy is significantly hurting conversion rates. Although industry-specific language complexity can vary, simplified language resonates better with audiences today.
Email remains the highest converting channel despite the rise of other platforms.
Mobile traffic is high, but desktop conversions are still more substantial.
Instagram is outperforming Facebook in terms of conversion effectiveness.
Adopting a mobile-first design strategy is crucial for success.
Benchmark reports can provide valuable insights for businesses.
Testing multiple variants is essential for optimizing conversion rates.

Chapters

[00:00] Introduction to Unbounce and Steve Oriola
[03:58] Email’s Enduring Effectiveness in Conversion
[05:59] Mobile vs. Desktop: Conversion Insights
[09:32] Writing at a Fifth to Seventh-Grade Level
[11:43] Industry-Specific Language Complexity in Conversion
[13:59] Using Benchmark Reports for Industry Insights
[16:32] Integrating Insightly with Unbounce
[18:58] Capturing and Retaining Attention in Marketing

More About Steve Oriola

Check out Steve Oriola‘s Website
Follow Steve Oriola on LinkedIn
Check out the Conversion Benchmark Report

This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by:

Try ActiveCampaign free for 14 days with our special offer. Exclusive to new customers—upgrade and grow your business with ActiveCampaign today!

Duct Tape Transcript

Testimonial (00:00): I was like, I found it. I found it. This is what I’ve been looking for. I can honestly say it has genuinely changed the way I run my business. It’s changed the results that I’m seeing. It’s changed my engagement with clients. It’s changed my engagement with the team. I couldn’t be happier. Honestly. It’s the best investment I ever made.

(01:04): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Steve Oriola. He is the CEO of Unbounce. He is a tenured CEO with more than two decades of experience scaling Dynamic B2B SaaS platforms, including Act! Boy, World Slash SThere’s an oldie constant contact, Pipedrive and Julius. He recently led Unbounce through the acquisition of Insightly CRM, where the two companies effectively merged. But we’re going to talk today about a benchmark report, some new research that Unbounce did on conversion. So Steve, welcome to the show.

Steve Oriola (01:43): Great, thanks for having me, John. Appreciate it.

John Jantsch (01:45): So I mentioned ACT is Act still around. That was the first CRMI ever used 25 years ago.

Steve Oriola (01:52): Act is still around, has a portion of their business desktop and a smaller portion that is SaaS. So yeah, they’re still delivering.

John Jantsch (02:01): Wow, that’s great. Alright, so probably let’s just not bury the lead, right? The big thing that you guys have been promoting about your findings is that complex copy is herding conversion rate. So let’s start there. Tell me about that.

Steve Oriola (02:15): Sure, yeah. What we’re finding is that, and this is just a difference between 2020 and 2024, really over just three or four years. The actual copy that resonates in lands is now fifth to seventh grade level copy as opposed to a little bit more like ninth and 10th grade or eighth and ninth. And people aren’t getting dumber. We believe the noise is increasing and you have less of an opportunity to land a message and get attention. And that’s what we believe the dynamic is. And we think during Covid, people may have had a little bit more time to read possibly, but the noise is intense now and we find the difference between fifth to seventh grade language and professional language is like two X in terms of conversion. So it’s a significant difference.

John Jantsch (03:08): And I imagine some of it’s the filter, right? I mean, like you said, people aren’t getting dumber, they just are willing to invest less time. And so it’s like give it to me very quickly. Don’t make me dance around and get the plot. And I suspect that’s probably what’s going on as much as anything, right?

Steve Oriola (03:23): Yeah, there is, but if you read the report, there’s a lot of nuance in there, right? A statement like that, you go into a particular vertical and it stands on its head. So we are talking about industry wide and that’s really the power of the report is to drill down into a particular vertical and see what the impact really is.

John Jantsch (03:43): So people have been trying to kill out email, kill off email for many years.

Steve Oriola (03:48): The

John Jantsch (03:48): Report shows that email is still the highest converting channel. Why do you suppose so many people want email to die? Is it just because we are sick of getting it, but we also buy stuff?

Steve Oriola (04:00): No, I think it’s because we now have so many other forms of communication. People think, well, email is the old one that’s going to die. Email is, you have to keep in mind email is an effective store and forward mechanism. So if you think about use cases and storing forward is preferable, sometimes it’s there. You don’t have to read it right away. And the other thing that might make email seem more effective is it’s a bit of a lower funnel tactic and comparing it to higher in the funnel tactics for conversion, not really fair. Those higher in the funnel channels and tactics are very important, yet you might not act on them until you’re in an email and have something in your

John Jantsch (04:41): Yeah, so it’s an attribution issue as much as anything probably.

Steve Oriola (04:46): I think it’s a bit of an, and we say that in the report, we caution people, we say, look, email is a much more effective conversion mechanism, but it might not be the first stop. That’s

John Jantsch (04:57): Way. So along those same lines of conversion mobile versus desktop increasing, my clients are seeing 50, 60, 70% mobile visits, but this report found that, but that’s not where people are pushing by.

Steve Oriola (05:13): Well, they are. I think they’re converting on mobile, they’re just converting higher on desktop. But if mobile makes up 70% of your traffic, you got to look at it in real numbers too.

(05:24): And it’s probably worth grinding on that mobile conversion rate in your tactics, but understand that desktop does convert higher. I think there is, and this isn’t in the report, this is sort of me, there is sort of an assumption that maybe on mobile you’re not seeing everything. And in fact, that is a bit true. You do design your responsive mobile to not have everything because dealing with constraints on the device. And I think people just sort of have an understanding of that. And if they’re really going to make a decision about signing up for something, they may want to be on the desktop and feel like they have access to all the information.

John Jantsch (06:07): And I think going back to our attribution thing, I think if we were able to follow journeys as thoroughly as they happen, I mean we would find a lot of people doing research, finding stuff, and then going, oh, I’m going to go to the desktop now. Right?

Steve Oriola (06:19): Exactly. Yes. That’s a good point is yeah, you’re sitting on the couch and there’s a commercial on during the football game and you’re on your phone researching a landing page vendor or something.

John Jantsch (06:30): Yeah. So Unbounce clearly sees lots of landing pages built and sees the effectiveness of those. Where do you, and maybe the research directs some of this, but where do you counsel people when it comes to this idea of mobile first? That everything needs to be designed there first and work there and be optimized there first.

Steve Oriola (06:53): We believe in that. I mean, certainly deal with the hardest constraints upfront when you’re designing, and then you could probably loosen up as you get to desktop. And the reason people do that is if you start with desktop, you may not think about the constraints of mobile and then you’re designing for that and it’s really difficult. So just flat out in general, mobile first is the right strategy. I think from a conversion mechanism like a landing page, I think you, yes, mobile first, but I think you really need to consider the industry you’re in. If you’re in financial services, people will do research on mobile, but they’re going to make decisions when they’re in front of their computer at home. So I think it’s industry specific as well. So I recommend people comb through the data in here to get that kind of guidance.

John Jantsch (07:40): One of the highlights in the report, I guess maybe I don’t pay enough attention because maybe this wasn’t a surprise to you all, but it was a little bit surprise to me that Instagram is outperforming Facebook in terms of being a paid, converting paid social channel. Was that surprising?

Steve Oriola (07:59): Not for me and probably not for people in their twenties. I think what’s changing over time is we have different platforms by demographics being sort of dragged into adulthood in the business world. And I’m sure my daughter is more likely to do something on Instagram than Facebook for

John Jantsch (08:18): Sure.

Steve Oriola (08:19): So that certainly could be part of it. I also think Instagram just is a mobile first channel and application. And as you see mobile take over more and more of the traffic, that’s probably part of the dynamic as well.

John Jantsch (08:37): It’s my pleasure to welcome a new sponsor to the podcast. Our friends at ActiveCampaign. ActiveCampaign helps small teams power big businesses with the must have platform for intelligent marketing automation. We’ve been using ActiveCampaign for years here at Duct Tape Marketing to power our subscription forms, email newsletters and sales funnel drip campaigns. ActiveCampaign is that rare platform that’s affordable, easy to use, and capable of handling even the most complex marketing automation needs. And they make it easy to switch. They provide every new customer with one-on-one personal training and free migrations from your current marketing automation or email marketing provider. You can try ActiveCampaign for free for 14 days and there’s no credit card required. Just visit activecampaign.com/duct tape. That’s right. Duct Tape marketing podcast listeners who sign up via that link. We’ll also receive 15% off an annual plan. That’s activecampaign.com/duct tape. Now this offer is limited to new active campaign customers only. So what are you waiting for? Fuel your growth, boost revenue and save precious time by upgrading to ActiveCampaign. Today. I want to circle back to this writing level. If somebody decides, oh, I’m in an industry where that probably is very valid, how does somebody decide to write in a fifth, seventh grade level? I suspect the world out there writes probably not much higher than seventh grade necessarily, but if I’m an engineer and I’m thinking, oh, I need my content to read fifth or seventh grade level, I mean, is that an AI tool?

Steve Oriola (10:17): I’m sure there are AI tools out there. We wrote our own model to score grade level

(10:23): That is not available as an external service, but I’m sure there are those out there. And our methodology was to look at a whole variety of tools or methodologies to grade level people’s writing and reading and chat. GPT can help you simplify, but one of the things that’s in the report is the kinds of words that will make it more complex. And the number of three syllable or greater words in your should be a below 15%. So that’s all laid out in the report, and you can easily do that yourself by looking at the content. And again, gen AI can summarize and simplify and you can even ask it to, I think if you write in there, dumb it down, it will literally dumb it down for you. So there are ways to do

John Jantsch (11:18): It. Yeah, I’m terrible at writing run on sentences and I’m certain that probably gets in the way, right. Shorter sentences, probably better

Steve Oriola (11:27): Then don’t be a copywriter.

John Jantsch (11:29): That’s what editors are for. That’s right,

Steve Oriola (11:31): That’s right.

John Jantsch (11:31): So there are things in here. There were a couple of things that surprised me as I’ve mentioned. Were there things in here that surprised you all, especially since you’ve done this research before?

Steve Oriola (11:41): I think some of the spreads in conversion rates in some of the verticals were significant. I believe it’s health and I think financial services as well with regards to the complexity. The language, financial services actually benefits from a little more depth of language and a little more complexity of language. I think there’s an assumption there that if you’re pursuing financial products, that’s real impact on your life and you want to understand it a little bit more. So those kinds of departures from the median as we measured, most things were a little surprising in some of the verticals. Just the level of nuance once you get down into the verticals was surprising.

John Jantsch (12:23): I’m going to come back to the verticals, but I wonder if, I mean, you’re analyzing a lot of copy that is, I don’t know, top of funnel for a better word, that you’re getting attention, right? With landing pages in some cases or getting people to move to a next stage in a journey. Would you agree that potentially simpler language is better there because we don’t have a relationship as we get deeper and I’m starting to analyze, can you actually solve my problem? Do I want perhaps a more complex language or at least deeper language because I’m going to spend the time?

Steve Oriola (12:55): Well, landing pages are not only top of funnel. So landing pages,

John Jantsch (12:58): I knew you were going to say that

Steve Oriola (13:00): Landing pages would come into play further down the funnel, even in retargeting, even in customer marketing to your own customer base. So the closer you get to that, the more complex the language can be and probably the more information people are looking for. So I think that plays a role for sure.

John Jantsch (13:20): Yeah. So you talked a couple times about industry specific benchmarks. Would you suggest that somebody who’s thinking, oh, I’m going to read this thing and see what my industry is doing, would then actually be able to draw the conclusion of, oh, okay, we’re doing really well or we’re doing better than people in our industry, or we need to up our game. I mean, do you feel like they can use the tool that way?

Steve Oriola (13:42): That’s really the purpose of the tool.

John Jantsch (13:44): Yeah,

Steve Oriola (13:44): Exactly that. And we didn’t release all of the verticals yet. We’re still crunching data to write this report. We crunched a year’s worth of data, 57 million conversions, over 41,000 landing pages. And the verticals that didn’t show up as statistically significant. And those kinds of numbers aren’t in here, so it’s not going to cover everyone. I think if your vertical’s not in here, you could still look at verticals, you could look at the data overall, so it will work for everyone. But if your vertical’s in here, it’s a benchmark,

John Jantsch (14:18): Roughly how many verticals you think covers, it’s going to be tough for a specific,

Steve Oriola (14:23): Yeah, sorry, I think we did seven or eight and maybe we have that or more coming.

John Jantsch (14:27): Okay. Okay. Alright. Conversion rate optimization is obviously a huge part of landing pages of marketing in general of webpage of pretty much everything. How can we make this better, right? I think there are actually probably c-suite titles given to that function

Steve Oriola (14:46): Director level. I’ve seen VPs of CRO. Yep.

John Jantsch (14:50): So you talk about in this report something called simple CRO, and I think a lot of people feel like, no, it’s terribly complex. So explain how that differs.

Steve Oriola (15:01): We can give a lot of capabilities. Our platform is not just for building landing pages, we have an AB testing solution and it’s more than A and B, it’s sort of we can create multiple variants and pick the best copy and even prior to statistical relevance, that’s just a math problem. We can help and we can also maintain those variants and direct traffic to the variant that makes the most sense for you. And we’re taking signals in order to make those determinations. So it’s way more than a landing page platform. And I think that’s an important consideration because we were designing and building a CRO platform and that’s what it’s about. So we would call that pretty simple because the tools are there if you want to go further beyond what our tools let you do. We have a third of our customers, I’ll call them customers or agencies, and they serve well beyond our customer base. And a lot of those agencies are performance based and go quite a bit further and start optimizing for revenue and other things beyond the conversion where they have that data and usually it’s their MarTech stack that we’re integrated into. So there are ways to go much further beyond. We make CR os simple, but we also want our more advanced customers to be able to go further.

John Jantsch (16:31): How is Insightly the CRM showing up in the unbalanced product?

Steve Oriola (16:36): Sure. Well, it isn’t yet. We’ve been one company since July. We are integrating the platforms and you’re likely to see the landing page solution be an upsell for marketing automation, right? Insightly has both a CRM and a marketing automation platform. The data science team that we built to turn our platform into a CRO platform is now very dialed into the CR ad Insightly. So you’ll see the kinds of things that we can do and have done. We’ll start doing on CRM and in marketing automation. We also have an attribution solution, a company that we bought a couple of years ago called Leads rx. So we have all the makings of a pretty rich, dynamic, exciting marketing solution

John Jantsch (17:28): You take on Salesforce pretty soon, right?

Steve Oriola (17:30): There you go. Well, we know our market and we know where we’re going. We hope not to always be running into Salesforce.

John Jantsch (17:41): So I think in the report, I think this is where I grabbed this, you talk about attention spans being obviously part of the issue, and I think you identified 47 seconds. I’m not sure if that came right out of the report or not. So you see a lot of marketers read that and they’re like, how do we get attention fast? How do we do gimmicky things? So what are some of the best ways to capture first, I guess, and then retain attention if people are only going to give us so many seconds?

Steve Oriola (18:08): Yeah, I think it comes down to clarity, which is usually simplification in this context. It usually means simpler words, not four or five syllable words and shorter copy and test generate multiple variants and test. That’s really the only answer. And we give you a platform to do that.

John Jantsch (18:32): It truly is the only answer. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve thought, oh no, that’s the winner. That’s the winner for sure. And you’re like, what? Yeah,

Steve Oriola (18:39): No, that’s right. And some of the things, and as you comb through different verticals, some of the things are a little counterintuitive. So yeah, you got to look for that.

John Jantsch (18:47): Yeah, it turns out clarity is much harder than complexity, isn’t it? It’s speaking of counterintuitive, Steve, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by. Where would you invite people to connect, either with you or clearly those interested in getting the full report? Where would you send

Steve Oriola (19:02): That? Oh, go to unbound.com and you’ll get directed there from the homepage. Something will probably pop up and nudge you there too. So that’s where I’d start. And yeah, it’s a pretty good report, so it’s getting a lot of play.

John Jantsch (19:18): Again, appreciate you stopping by and taking a few moments. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Franchise Secrets to Leading Effectively

Franchise Secrets to Leading Effectively written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Ducttape Marketing Podcast with Tiffany Slowinski

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Tiffany Slowinski, an entrepreneur and co-owner of three successful franchises. Tiffany shares her journey in the franchise industry, insights on using the Culture Index to improve team dynamics, and the importance of self-awareness in leadership. She discusses how data-driven information can transform business communication and productivity while addressing common misconceptions about leadership tools. Tiffany Slowinski emphasizes the need for buy-in from leadership and the role of self-awareness in effective team management.

Key Takeaways:

Transforming team dynamics can lead to increased revenue.
Communication styles can be adjusted based on team data.
Data can help identify potential leaders early on.
Misconceptions about leadership tools can hinder progress.
Self-awareness is key to effective leadership.
Leadership buy-in is crucial for implementing change.

Chapters

[00:00] Introduction to Tiffany Slawinski
[01:34] Franchise Journey and Insights
[03:11] The Power of Culture Index
[05:01] Transforming Team Dynamics
[08:50] Addressing Executive Skepticism
[10:46] Common Misconceptions in Leadership
[12:31] Utilizing Data for Effective Leadership
[17:11] Working with Spouses in Business
[19:57] Self-Awareness in Leadership

More About Tiffany Slowinski

Check out Tiffany Slowinski’s Website
Follow Tiffany Slowinski on LinkedIn

This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by:

Try ActiveCampaign free for 14 days with our special offer. Exclusive to new customers—upgrade and grow your business with ActiveCampaign today!

Duct Tape Transcript

(01:03): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Tiffany Slowinski. She’s an entrepreneur and co-owner of three successful franchises with her husband. Jake is a mother of four. She draws inspiration from both her family and career through Team Spark Advisors. She uses data-driven insights to help businesses improve communication, productivity, and employee satisfaction. She holds a master’s in psychology from Columbia University, enhancing her experience in leadership and team dynamics. So Tiffany, welcome to the show.

Tiffany Slowinski (01:38): Thanks for having me, John.

John Jantsch (01:40): So did I read somewhere it says you have four kids. Do you have four girls? Did I

Tiffany Slowinski (01:44): Read that? Yes.

John Jantsch (01:46): So do I.

Tiffany Slowinski (01:47): Oh, that never happens.

John Jantsch (01:50): Mine are grown and having babies of their own now, but it was fundraising for girls, especially as a dad. I would always get questions like, oh, is that really hard on you? And truthfully, they were way harder on their mother than me.

Tiffany Slowinski (02:03): People are always like, wow, your poor husband. I’m like, I dunno what you want me to do about this right now.

John Jantsch (02:10): I got tired of it. But any rate, so you have and your husband have a lot of history in the franchise industry. In fact, you actually worked corporately for a franchise before getting, tell me a little bit about your franchise background. It seems like you’re very drawn to that model, so you must think it’s a positive model.

Tiffany Slowinski (02:30): Yeah, well, with franchises it’s like just do what you’re supposed to and it takes some of the guesswork out of it. Going into franchises was kind of the opposite of most people in that I opened our franchises with my husband. They’re magazines that we own and most people leave corporate America to open a franchise. I opened my franchise and our franchisor asked me to come work for them. So I went backwards and that was during the pandemic. And we had just recently opened our first franchise that year and we’re having a lot of early success. We were rookies of the year, fastest growing publication the company had seen up to that point. And so they wanted me to come to the corporate level and help do for everybody else what we’ve been able to do with ours, which unsurprisingly is not exactly how that works. You can’t just get everybody else to do what you do.

John Jantsch (03:37): So the Team Spark Advisors is primarily, you primarily use the Culture Index survey to work with folks. There are, I’m familiar with at least eight. There’s probably a hundred of those types of surveys out there. I’ve taken Strength Finders and Colby and some of the other ones that are out there. Is there something about Culture Index that you think makes it particularly effective for business?

Tiffany Slowinski (04:01): My original background with it was in my time working for our corporate franchise, we were clients of Culture Index. I was the end user and I had done all sorts of surveys, like you mentioned, our CEO was really big on that and I, psych background, I always found them somewhat interesting, but I was never so drawn to something as I was Culture Index. And for me it was kind of for a few reasons. One, it just pegged me and everybody around me that I worked with so accurately I’d never seen anything like it. Some of these other surveys we took, there’d be like half of us in the room would be like, oh, we have the same letters or we’re the same. But I’d be like, I don’t understand it. I don’t see it. I don’t think we’re similar, but this paper is saying it.

(04:50): This with Culture Index had a lot more depth to it. There were a lot more possibilities. It wasn’t just your detailed or your social, there was degrees of things and how those traits played together. The other piece is really what’s the differentiating factor? I talked to a lot of businesses. You were like, I’ve done a million of these things until I start talking to them and they’re like, oh, that’s different. I’m really a walk alongside you model. I’m a consultant. I’m not selling you a batch of surveys and saying, Hey, here’s information on your team. Good luck with that. I’ve trained you for an hour. I’m there every step of the way because you’ve got to learn how to actually put it into practice. Otherwise it’s not worth anything.

John Jantsch (05:30): I’ll put you on the spot a little bit. Hopefully you have one that you can pull up quickly. But do you have a business, a case study that you’ve actually worked with a business and they’ve gone through the work and done the work and listened to you and it’s completely changed the team dynamics?

Tiffany Slowinski (05:45): It changes beyond even team dynamics. It changes their revenue. It changes a lot of things because when you don’t have the right people in the right seats that can really drag down progress, can drag down everything. So when I work with a company, first thing I’m doing is going in and getting a baseline on the current employees because a lot of times it’s this whole like, okay, we think we’re good over there, just help us with the new people until you start working with them. And then it’s, oh, maybe we’re not as good here as we thought. And I wound up spending actually more time working with them on their existing teams than the new employees. They always think about the new employees is what they want, but the actuality is it’s really helping them define their existing teams. And I’ve seen this one company I’m working with, they moved people around a little bit. They made some changes that you would’ve thought, are people going to really accept what could feel like a demotion or when they’re going to work basically exploding in their brain every day and it’s not working. Nobody likes to go to work and fail. And that’s what it feels like sometimes for people to be in the wrong seats. John, the old adage, you take your best salesperson and you make ’em sales manager

(07:04): And they’re lousy

John Jantsch (07:05): And they fail.

Tiffany Slowinski (07:07): And that happens a lot. We take our best person and we’re like, okay, since they’re really good at doing the work, let’s make them the leader. And that is a completely different skillset. And you’re taking a person who’s really good at what they were doing and now are they kind of setting them up to fail?

John Jantsch (07:24): Yeah, I often find that there are definitely people that are good at doing the work, so to speak. I am a marketing agency so that do the execution really in a lot of cases don’t like to lead. People don’t like to delegate. They love the doing. And then there are people that they want to delegate everything. They want to have a team doing the things. And sometimes it’s very difficult because there’s work to be done, right? It is like, no, you do this and you do this and you do that. So is there any sort of, I don’t know the right trait or term for this. If somebody takes the culture index or one of these index type of tools, I mean, can you start to say, oh, you’re going to be better as a leader, you’re going to be better as X, or is that actually a mistake to maybe make those assumptions?

Tiffany Slowinski (08:14): It’s not a mistake. It’s helping putting people into the right roles. So I get it. You can’t necessarily take a person with no work experience at all their first job out of college and say, oh, you’re going to be the CEO O because you have the right traits. They still need experience.

(08:33): But if you are seeing early signs of we’ve got data here that supports this person will be good in leadership at some point you can help identify that early. And it doesn’t mean they get to skip all the steps, but it’s letting them know, Hey, we see potential in you. Hang tight. Yes, you have to learn the role. And I know that might kill you a little bit in the meantime, but if you work with us and do a good job, we could fast track you. So showing them the possibility of what the future could look like

John Jantsch (09:00): When you’re out there pitching this sometimes, and I’m sure you run up against some executives that are like, yeah, this is something we’re supposed to do, but it’s like the feel good stuff. Go ahead. What are some skeptical executives? I mean, how do you convince them the value of using a tool like this for both alignment and recruitment?

Tiffany Slowinski (09:22): So it’s really about aligning with the right partners. For me, there are visionary profiles and that’s kind of the fun of sometimes having the data people before I talk to them in that I don’t really have to pitch or convince them of anything. They realize there’s a problem and they’re proactive and they want to solve it. They know there’s people issues. I’ve yet to come across a company that says we’re 10 for 10 on every employee. It doesn’t happen.

Tiffany Slowinski (09:48): We

Tiffany Slowinski (09:48): Like to think we’re good at this, but let’s be honest, it’s really hard because people will present themselves a certain way in an interview process. Social people are four times more likely to be hired. Why they interview? Well, they have those skills. So a skeptic, I’m really not going to come into you. And then we’re probably not a good fit because unfortunately a skeptic at the frontline will sometimes continue to be a skeptic through the process and it winds up hindering things. We don’t get anywhere unless you come in with an open mind. I ask leadership, come in and come in with an open mind that we’re all going to hear things about ourselves we don’t like. There’s no perfect person. I’ve had to swallow some of my own pills about who I am and when you can embrace that and say, I’ve got these gifts and I’m going to work to those, rather than spending all my time worrying about like, oh, I’m low detail, I’m a disaster at organizing things, I knew that, right? So I can have an admin that does those things for me and not beat myself up with a fact. That’s not a strength of mine.

John Jantsch (10:55): Alright, so let’s throw the skeptical ones out because they’re too hard to work with, but there probably are some misconceptions that leaders have. What are some of the common ones that you encounter where people are either not seeing how to use this or seeing it as less than talk about some of the misconceptions that you encounter?

Tiffany Slowinski (11:15): So sometimes there’s a bit of an attitude of I just want to pay for something to fix this.

Tiffany Slowinski (11:21): Yeah.

Tiffany Slowinski (11:22): And I don’t want to have human involvement just go deal with the HR director and let them do this and it’s not going to work. I could take your money, but I’m going to tell you right now, a year from now, you’re going to say, that didn’t work and I’m not going to continue working with you because this is top down. If there’s not buy-in at the leadership level and there’s some work to be done

Tiffany Slowinski (11:47): At

Tiffany Slowinski (11:47): The leadership level, and these are busy people who have other things they need to do, but if they invest little bit of time upfront, this starts to become something that’s incorporated down. If we try to start this at a lower level, it’ll never infiltrate up. It’s too easy to go back to our ways. It’s too easy to say, well, this person has this great resume. I like them. They came from our biggest competitor. Just hire them and you will take my data and you will throw it in the garbage can because it doesn’t say what you want it to say. And so if you haven’t worked on this with me, you’re not going to have a belief in the product and you’re kind of wasting your money at that point.

John Jantsch (12:26): It’s my pleasure to welcome a new sponsor to the podcast. Our friends at ActiveCampaign. ActiveCampaign helps small teams power big businesses with the must have platform for intelligent marketing automation. We’ve been using ActiveCampaign for years here at Duct Tape Marketing to power our subscription forms, email newsletters and sales funnel drip campaigns. ActiveCampaign is that rare platform that’s affordable, easy to use, and capable of handling even the most complex marketing automation needs. And they make it easy to switch. They provide every new customer with one-on-one personal training and free migrations from your current marketing automation or email marketing provider. You can try Active Campaign for free for 14 days and there’s no credit card required. Just visit activecampaign.com/duct tape. That’s right. Duct Tape Marketing podcast listeners who sign up via that link. We’ll also receive 15% off an annual plan. That’s active campaign.com/duct tape. Now this offer is limited to new active campaign customers only.

(13:31): So what are you waiting for? Fuel your growth. Boost revenue and save precious time by upgrading to active campaign today. Alright, let’s say an example internally, a team, a leader says, I’m going to have all my people take this. Even if they’re not trying to solve a problem, they just feel like, Hey, I’d like to understand each personality better. How would somebody, and again, I know you’re not looking at results, but how would somebody use the fact that they have that information now to adjust how they communicate, adjust how they lead, adjust how they delegate, even what have you seen people that really embrace this do?

Tiffany Slowinski (14:11): Yeah. So knowing who is working with them, that’s why it’s important to involve leadership of multiple levels because the CEO is not necessarily spending any amount of time with certain people in the company. So I’ve got to work with different levels of leadership, but you know that somebody is less likely to take initiative or is going to move a little bit slower. You can set deadlines, you can send reminders. You can say, I’m over my dead body, I’m set a reminder, but I’ll have my admin do that or I’ll have this other person do that. I know myself is not going to do that. Right? So in understanding how people work, you can modify yourself to a degree. If these are people that you value and that are doing a good job, there’s a certain amount of modification to your behaviors that you’re going to want to make.

(15:05): If this person is not doing a good job is costing the company money, you’re trying to turn yourself inside out to be able to work with them. Maybe this is not the right spot for them to be in because you have to think about, as a leader, how much can I change myself before going crazy as well to accommodate you for the right person. It might be worth it for the wrong person. You’re not going to want to spend your time doing that. Simple things, communication styles, somebody who wants all the information and asks all the questions and can be very irritating to someone who’s a little bit of a quicker mover, lower detail, good enough to move on. And those two people understanding that, okay, let me at least have some compassion when this person’s bombarding me with questions and not flip out. And on the flip side, knowing that person’s not going to take to this, so maybe I should just send three bullet points in an email and they’re going to be more likely to respond than trying to send them something that’s like 17 pages long.

John Jantsch (16:05): How much do you advise people to use this data? For example, we have everybody. We happen to use strength finders, and so we have everybody actually take it, but then we also have them share it with the entire team with the idea that, hey, here’s what really irritates me. Here’s how I like to work, that we get some of that stuff off. How important do you think it is that people are consistently reinforcing and sharing the styles of how I like to work and really making sure that hopefully uses that in a positive way. But do you find that by reinforcing it, bringing up all the time, sharing it actually makes it more useful? Or is it, do people feel more vulnerable doing that?

Tiffany Slowinski (16:53): So the important thing to note, there’s no wrong people. Anything that could be a positive, your greatest strength could also be your biggest weakness, right? It’s cliche, but it’s true. So there’s no person I’ve yet to come across him that has it all. They could be more equipped for certain roles that they’re going to be very ideal, but there’s no person who’s literally good at everything. So I do think that communication and keeping this front of mind is important because again, if you look at it once, oh, that’s so cool. John’s just like this. We have this in common, but in this way we’re different. You’re going to forget about it. And where does this really come up is when there’s a dispute or things aren’t getting done or falling through the cracks or you bringing in a new person to train and you’re realizing they’re getting trained the wrong way by constantly having this information out there and being reinforced and talking about it.

(17:48): There’s different logic is one that I look at, and that could be really hard for somebody to say, I’m lower logic. Nobody wants to think that about them. But they’re also some of the most passionate people who could be amazing presenters and cheerleaders in an organization. I mean, there’s a lot of good that comes from being emotional like that, but if you’ve got a low logic and a high logic person in an argument, they could be basically speaking a different language. They can’t relate to why are you so upset right now? And why are you so calm? That’s suspect, what do you just not care? And that can cause arguments. So you just even be able to understand their high logic. They’re going to be a little bit colder. That’s not a reflection on me that says something about them and not me. You can reason with them better and have a more productive conversation.

John Jantsch (18:41): You are in a unique position where you work with their spouse, so spouse and coworker. And there certainly are a lot of folks out there that are in that. And there are also a lot of entrepreneurs where one is very entrepreneurial, one is not at all, maybe stay at home or work in a corporate job. How often do you find that actually having couples participate in using a tool like this generates some interesting insights?

Tiffany Slowinski (19:09): Just about every company I’m with within a day of meeting me, they are surveying their spouse and their children because all of a sudden it’s like, my wife, I really want to learn more about that, or My kids are driving me nuts. Let’s see what’s going on there. So it’s so common that even if you don’t necessarily work together, you work through life

(19:34): Together. And those roles can look a little different in a household than a business. But in my case, with my husband, some of this was so obvious, I’m super social. Off the charts, social, top 1% of humans walking the earth, he is low social. This will come of no surprise to either of us. We both know this about each other, but now when I’m dragging him to the 19th event of the weekend, he can look at me and he’ll say, Tiffany, I’m low social and this is draining my battery right now and I can’t just tell him to shut up anymore because the data says it. He’s right. So it is helped me to be, even though I always knew that I don’t think I ever understood the toll that me dragging him around would take. And so I’ve become much more cognizant of, okay, you can’t skip Christmas, but there’s certain things that maybe I don’t really need you by my side, it’s doing you no good. Let me let you sit this out because he’ll be a much happier human and he’ll be more productive at work on Monday if I let him skip out some barbecue on a Sunday afternoon that he doesn’t feel like being on. Anyway.

John Jantsch (20:46): So sort of along those lines, do you ever find that people either try successfully or unsuccessfully, so they go through this and somebody’s in a certain role and they’re really great at the role, but there’s an aspect of it that they’re going to need in order to progress and it’s just not there and the data shows it. Can you use a tool or would you even advise using a tool to help somebody improve in an area that is maybe not joyful to them, but important?

Tiffany Slowinski (21:16): Yeah. So it’s not to say that we can’t modify ourselves at all we can. And so through training, education, experience, wisdom, self-awareness, when I have people who are self-aware, they can more easily say, okay, I’m not exactly showing leadership traits here. In some ways, what can I do to work on that? I can see now exactly where that’s needed. But if they can’t acknowledge that in themselves, then you’re just banging your head against a wall. So there’s absolutely ways we can all improve. It just goes to ask how far, I had a business owner recently hopped on a call with him, and I was somewhat surprised, but he said to me, Tiffany, do you think I should keep running my own business?

(22:13): And it’s sort of unusual. I looked at his profile, I said, this scares the crap out of you every single day, doesn’t it? He’s like, yeah, I’m like, you don’t like this? He’s like, no. I’m like, yeah, you’re a really risk averse person. This is really uncomfortable for you. So he’s acknowledging that in himself, and if he’s even asked me that, okay, so some people could take my information and go, oh, this just says I’m a bad leader. I’m not going to pay attention to that. Or they could look at that information and go, okay, now what can I do about it? Who else is he going to bring into his company? Are there people who can help co-lead with him to take some of that pressure off so he could do what he’s good at, but still have other people there?

John Jantsch (22:51): It’s interesting. I have done well, I’ve done thousands of interviews, but I’ve done hundreds. That leadership is a big part of the conversation. And it’s amazing how often the idea of self-awareness comes up as being really, you can’t pass go and be a leader if you don’t have some level of self-awareness. I’m sure you have discovered that as well.

Tiffany Slowinski (23:15): Yeah. It’s integral, right? You can, again, have great traits, but if you don’t realize how you come off to others, that can be really challenging. I’m an extraordinarily low patience person, and so understanding now that I think before I speak, I’m a quick mover that there’s times I can come across as angry

(23:43): And I’m not really angry. I’m being direct and trying to get something done, but realizing the experience of the person on the other side is she’s mad at me. And it’s like, oh, I’ve had employees say that to me. You’re a little scary sometimes. I’m like me, right? But with experiences come, wow, that could be perceived as scary, and I don’t like hearing that about myself. And it’s very easy, again, to just say, I’m not scary. You’re crazy. But if people are telling me that, then I need to behave differently because my quest to get things done quickly can’t come at the cost of other people, feel like they can’t keep up, and that’s really what’s at play there. I just move very fast and seeing this data points and realizing they’re never going to move at my speed. Me expecting that it’s driving too hard, it’s creating too much friction. So I purposely modify myself to become more patient. Am I always perfect at it? No. But it’s only through awareness that I even try to put that in place.

John Jantsch (24:46): Absolutely. Well, Tiffany, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast to share a little bit. Is there someplace you might want to invite people to connect with you and find out more about your work?

Tiffany Slowinski (24:55): Absolutely. You can connect with me on LinkedIn, Tiffany Slosky, or you could go to my website, team spark advisors.com.

John Jantsch (25:03): Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by, and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Why Working Less is the Secret to Earning More With Alyson Caffrey

Why Working Less is the Secret to Earning More With Alyson Caffrey written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Alyson Caffrey

Coming in at number four of your favorite episodes lately: In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Alyson Caffrey, the founder of Operations Agency and the co-creator of the operations simplified framework, which is aimed at streamlining the backend operations for digital and creative agencies. She also authorizes The Sabbatical Method: How to Leverage Rest and Grow Your Business. With a wealth of experience in helping agency owners find a balance between their work and rest, Alyson sheds light on how the Sabbatical Method can revolutionize how marketing systems are handled.

Key Takeaway:

Working less to achieve more is a paradigm shift in the traditional hustle culture, especially among agency owners in the marketing realm. Alyson Caffrey joins me in elucidating how the Sabbatical Method is transforming the marketing systems landscape. We delve into the concept of “systematic rest,” an innovative approach to interspersing work with adequate rest to prevent burnout and enhance productivity and creativity significantly. By embracing the Sabbatical Method, agency owners are discovering a potent strategy to scale their business while reducing the hours they traditionally grind away, making the notion of working less to achieve more a reality.

Questions I ask Alyson Caffrey:

[00:45] How does rest contribute to business growth?
[02:31] Can you explain the framework you mentioned?
[03:43] Is a long sabbatical the goal of your method?
[05:44] How does your 90-day method alter established work habits?
[08:28] Do founders grasp your concepts both logically and emotionally?
[11:10] Can you explain the operation simplified hierarchy?
[14:37] What daily habits do you recommend for gradual improvement?
[18:54] How can one develop discipline in creating effective systems?
[21:54] How should these changes be planned in quarterly planning?
[24:37] Where can listeners connect with you or learn more?

More About Alyson Caffrey

Get Alyson’s book – The Sabbatical Method: How to Leverage Rest and Grow Your Business
Find out more about the Operations Agency
Connect with Alyson Caffrey on LinkedIn

Get Your Free AI Prompts To Build A Marketing Strategy:

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Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

Connect with John Jantsch on LinkedIn

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:08): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Alison Caffery. She streamlines the backend operations for digital and creative agencies, and she’s the founder of Operations Agency and the co-creator of the Operations Simplified Framework. We’re going to talk about her most recent book, the Sabbatical Method, how to Leverage Rest and Grow Your Business. Allison’s also the host of the Growing Pains podcast, so welcome to the show, Allison.

Alyson Caffrey (00:43): Thanks for having me, John. Appreciate it.

John Jantsch (00:46): Okay. I’m probably not the first person to say this, but REST is not often associated with growing a business, so tell me why it should be.

Alyson Caffrey (00:55): Yeah, that’s an awesome way to frame that question honestly. So I started thinking about the function of rest after I went on maternity leave with my first son. My business was three years old and it still needed me a lot. And I remember it being a really confronting experience because I thought to myself, well, how can I actually take some time off and also simultaneously grow my business? And I started just considering that growing a business is a high performance effort. We need to be able to put out a high performing output and we need to be able to be really consistent. We need to be really clear. We need to do the specific activities that are going to bring us the highest level result. And one of those activities actually is rest. If you think about someone summiting Everest or training for a marathon or doing anything in the physical high performing nature, rest is woven into every single training plan out there that exists. But for some reason, we as small business owners think that momentum and hustle and grinding and are going to be the answers to a lot of our problems, when in fact implementing rest actually can preserve the longevity of your business and really prevent against burnout, which has unfortunately become such a commonplace in the entrepreneurial spirit,

John Jantsch (02:15): Unfortunately. And I do think that there, unfortunately for good or bad, there are bad examples of everything. I think there’s a lot of bad examples of just what you talked about. The whole hustle and grind thing became kind of badge of honor for some people. I do think we’re going the other direction. Fortunately we’re going to get into the specifics, but maybe since we’re calling this a framework or a method, let’s kind of big picture, what is it in a nutshell?

Alyson Caffrey (02:42): Yeah, so the sabbatical method is kind of like hard 75 for business owners. It’s really supposed to serve two main purposes. First is to give you a hard stop and kind of a reset. If you’ve been really needing to take a rest from the business, if you feel like you’re at the edge of yourself, if you’re grinding and at full speed, this is supposed to be your permission because Alison Caffrey says there’s a return on investment for rest. This is your permission to take that time. Second is it’s a lifestyle. So after you finish hard 75, you’re not supposed to just start snacking on the Cheetos right away. You’re supposed to consider what can I take from this really challenging disciplined time and how can I weave it into my overall health and wellness in my personal life? And that’s what I want you to consider operationally in your business. How can I weave rest into the way that my business performs so that I can see more return on investment and more longevity overall? So that’s what the sabbatical method is in a nutshell.

John Jantsch (03:43): Alright, so the end goal then is to, I mean people think of a sabbatical, people leave the country, leave their business for three, six months. I mean, is that really the ultimate goal? However you define that?

Alyson Caffrey (03:57): It’s interesting. I get asked that all the time and the short answer is no, it’s not a traditional sabbatical. Sabbatical to me is just as simple as closing your computer at 6:00 PM if that’s what you’ve been struggling to do. Everybody needs to begin where they are. And just again, in any physical training plan, we don’t go out to run 26.2 miles on day one of our marathon training. We run one mile and then we get nice and rested, then we go out for maybe a two mile run the next day.

(04:26): That’s the same position I take with sabbatical planning. A lot of us think that sabbaticals are this Parisian six month, three month time off. And a lot of it feels really inaccessible to business owners and transparently, if you tried to do that at this point in some of our businesses, our business would just fall apart if we just kind of decided to go take this super long vacation. So what I tried to reposition the term of sabbatical is consistent and appropriate rest at different levels of the business. So that might mean closing the computer at 6:00 PM making sure that you’re not answering emails or doing specific client projects over the weekends. Making sure that you block in sometimes in your monthly cadence to review your overall goals and consider what are the systems I have in place for the business and how am I systematically going after what I want to achieve and how am I achieving results for clients? So those are kind of the different types of things I would consider as implementing rest into the business. And of course you can leverage these exact tools to build up to a three month sabbatical. That’s what I personally did to take my maternity leaves with my sons and I was able to take some really meaningful time off that really did shift the direction and clarify the purpose of a lot of the things we were doing in operations agency.

John Jantsch (05:44): So one of the book’s Promises is somewhere buried in there is that we’re going to do this in 90 days, right? We’re going to correct a lot of bad habits in 90 days. A lot of business owners, the way they work has taken them 20 years to get there. So how do you get the mindset shift? And maybe it’s just people, they get burned out enough, they’re like, I got to do something, and that alone is enough to make ’em create a difference. But what do you say to those people that really just kind of established this way to work for many years maybe?

Alyson Caffrey (06:16): Yeah. There’s kind of two things I think John that you’ve asked that are relevant to unpack here. First is that I know a lot of digital agency owners who really struggle to get themselves out of the day-to-Day operations of their business because they have a lot of industry expertise and a specific formula that lives right up here in the brain that they use to approach their client projects and really get some of the best results on projects. One of the things that I position in the book is really being dialed into that over a 90 day period is to understand what am I doing that is actually systematic things that I do day in and day out for every single project? And then what is maybe that 80 20 rule that we can identify that 80% is repeatable and about 20% of my involvement is actually custom.

(07:02): So I think that mindset first and foremost is one of the most challenging to overcome because it forces us to reconcile with the fact that although we do have about 20% of the secret sauce, a lot of what we’re doing actually is repeatable and actually can be delegated. So if you want to grow the business and you want to be disciplined about removing yourself, those two things are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they pair really well together. And the second really big thing that I think folks need to understand about running a business at large, I learned this actually from just my very recent years of becoming a mom. My oldest is three. And I think to myself, sometimes I say, look, I can outsource specific aspects of my parenting. I can outsource my child’s education to a teacher. I can outsource childcare to a daycare.

(07:48): I can outsource their physical education or fitness to a specific sports team or to a community of folks who could get that outcome. But at the end of the day, it relies on me to be the parent to raise a capable adult in that way. And I think a lot of us as business owners hear this zone of genius and stay in your specialties and all these things, but we forget that businesses actually need a really full spectrum and rich amount of skills that we actually need to develop if we want to see its success. So a lot of owners will say, well, I’m not a systems person. And I’m like, well, that’s what your business needs you to be right now that need you to be systematic if you want to grow it to the point that you desire.

John Jantsch (08:28): Well, you were certainly singing my tune. I mean, I’ve spent the last 20 years actually licensing my agency methodology to hundreds of agencies. And I will tell you that it is so freeing when people realize, oh, I can scope this and I don’t have to be the one doing all the work. But probably the biggest challenge for a lot of people is mindset. They actually draw their energy from doing the work or being the savior or being the one who can have the answer. And I think sometimes I think logically everybody gets what you’re just saying. I think sometimes emotionally it’s actually harder.

Alyson Caffrey (09:08): And it’s interesting, a lot of the things I focus on in the book and even with my team, actually just before I hopped on, we were crystallizing our quarterly plan for Q4. And one of the things I do actually to wrap that exercise, wait a minute, Q4

John Jantsch (09:21): Already started and you’re just now finally finishing your plan.

Alyson Caffrey (09:24): I’m finalizing it literally today. I was out with my mastermind planning last week, and it’s interesting because what we do is we finalize and put the bow on everything with a daily habit tracker.

(09:38): And the reason why I love habit trackers and focusing on activities inside of the business is because it does a great job of removing that emotional element to doing the work that is important to drive you forward. I think all of us can get pulled in to, how do I feel about this? Or I just don’t feel like it today, or You know what, it’s easier for me to just go back into web work because that’s where I’m comfortable and excited to contribute. But at the end of the day, if your business needs you to be in a different seat and it needs you to be doing different activities, identifying those at 30,000 feet inside of your quarterly plan and then really deciding every day to say, listen, I’m going to show up to this activity with no emotion as much as I possibly can come in and do the work. And if I really feel like I’m doing something that isn’t bringing me joy and bringing the business value, then we can reassess how that’s going. But if it’s driving the business forward in the way the direction that you’re wanting, that’s one of the quickest, most easily implementable things I have found that remove kind of that mindset, emotional element from approaching your daily work.

John Jantsch (10:51): So we’ve gotten halfway through the episode here, and I haven’t really brought up the hierarchy, which is really the foundation obviously of the book. The big idea is of course the sabbatical, but how you get there in stages, and again, I don’t know how you want to address that, if you just want to start riffing on that, but unpack the operation simplified hierarchy.

Alyson Caffrey (11:14): So the hierarchy really was birthed by really just considering operationally, what does a business need to survive and thrive? And I rooted it in Maslow’s hierarchy of needs because just like any human being, we’ve got some of the basic stuff that needs to happen like process creation and quarterly planning, really hitting those metrics, the habits, like I just said, that’s kind of the big foundation of how we want to operate. The next is really just defining a home and considering that if we’re going to invite team members to collaborate on key projects, what do those projects look like and how can I create repeatable, profitable projects at my agency? The third is really driven on metrics. So what measurables do we have in place to tell us what decisions we need to make next? And then how can we scale this thing? How do we invite a community and grow our reach and our impact and really scream from the rooftops now that we have this incredible backend well of procedures, what are our front end procedures for the growth side of the business in sales and marketing? And then finally, profit and prosper is kind of the tip of the pyramid there, which I actually say is custom. We want to be consistently putting profit back into the pockets of the owner and its key stakeholders, but we also want to help our clients and the people that are involved with our business really prosper in whatever way that we’ve outlined for them. And that looks different, right?

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Alyson Caffrey (13:42): I have some agency owners who really love to work the six months on, six months off schedule. They really love to be at home and working on their business and then take six months in Mexico, so that looks different. Their operations look a little bit different than somebody who really wants to create a strong full stack agency team. That’s just a very different model. So I consider those as kind of the foundational elements. Now, something really important that I did also really focus on inside of the book is that first and foremost, these aren’t achieved in sequence. I know so many business owners who have the sales and marketing stuff dialed in, they’ve got really incredible reach and impact and all of that in the marketplace, but then they actually super lack some of that repeatable project and profitability stuff. So it doesn’t mean that you need to focus on it in sequence. I do in the book because I feel like each and everyone builds on one another. And the second thing I will also mention is that it’s never done right. We’re always going to be doing this work just like your physical fitness. You don’t work to get a six pack and then eat Cheetos on day 31. It’s something that we are consistently working on and refining as the business is growing and as it’s breaking the processes that we currently have.

John Jantsch (14:59): And I think that’s a key point. Once you get safe fulfillment dialed in, then you have maybe more capacity. So that creates another problem. And so then you have to go revisit sales and marketing. I mean these levels, you’re just coming back to ’em. I mean, you’re revisiting ’em even once, as you say, you’ve got ’em dialed in. But I think there is a little bit of just Maslow talks about, I mean, you can’t even begin to think about profits if you don’t have the basics, right? I mean, there is some order of things that you have to get certain things done, but you’re right. I mean, nobody shows up in any perfect stage. We’re all one foot in each stage, I suppose, at some point.

Alyson Caffrey (15:40): Yeah, absolutely.

John Jantsch (15:42): You mentioned it already, but I had it on the list here to talk about because I do think that it’s crucial to making any of this happen and it’s habits, isn’t it? And so talk a little bit about the daily habits that you talk about, your daily five, I think it is habits, but then just what are some of the things that you’ve seen have really helped move people along because they’re doing 1% better each day kind of thing?

Alyson Caffrey (16:08): And I have to give a shout out to Atomic Habits by James Clear. That is one of my favorite books of all time. And if anybody listening has not read it, it’s worth a read and a reread perhaps every single year because as you grow as a professional and a human being, hearing that information again is just astronomically more valuable every single time you read it. So that’s definitely number one. A lot of my thinking around habits is formed from the expertise of James Clear and that specific book. I think one of the big things that I love to focus on when generating habits first and foremost, is understanding the difference between leading and lagging indicators. So habits really apply to the former, what habits can I keep that really will help me be the person or have the business or have whatever it is that I really want?

(16:54): That those lagging indicators are the outcomes. And I think a lot of folks think that habits are for people who are organized and systematic and have schedules and all of those things, but I’d like to kind of challenge how we think about habits because habits exist. They just do, and we need to reconcile sometimes the first step is really understanding that we do keep habits, but they might actually not be pushing us toward the things that we want, the people we want to be, the businesses we want to have, the lives we want to create.

John Jantsch (17:25): Bad habits are habits, right?

Alyson Caffrey (17:27): Exactly. But I think a lot of folks think habits and then they’re like, oh, you’re going to tell me some system or some hack about your calendar or whatever else. And really habits just are, they’re good, they’re bad, they’re whatever. And I can’t really get any more clear on that. I think a lot of folks need to begin with, okay, what are my habits currently and are they pushing me toward the thing I want? And I think taking a stock of those. So first and foremost, foundational habit kind of creation is to consider what do I literally want? And is every single habit that I keep in my day driving me toward that specific thing? And a lot of that is eliminating some of those things that one of my coaches actually calls it time assassins, and he says it’s like drinking alcohol, watching television, eating refined sugars, personal social media.

(18:15): Exactly. Things that literally just rip your time away. And I think a lot of us, as we start to consider, well, I don’t have enough time in the day to let’s just say serve 50 clients versus 20 clients who don’t have the time, the question then becomes is, am I not disciplined enough in developing the systems? Am I not disciplined enough in removing the things that aren’t serving me? And so I think starting there with really just being critical and assessing how you’re spending your time is wonderful. And then really, again, planning those habits at your quarterly planning. So just saying, Hey, listen, if I’m putting on this side of the equals sign the business, I want the life, I want the health level that I’d love to achieve the family life that I love, what does that look like? And then what habits do I need to keep daily?

(18:57): I was actually just doing this exercise with a client of mine, and he was telling me that he wanted 300 new leads into his pipeline every single month. And I told him, I said, well, with your current strategy on doing lots of one-to-one, I was like, you’re going to probably need to do about 900 reach outs every single month. And I was like, here’s what it literally looks like in your calendar and here are the habits you’d need to keep. I was like, do you think that this is sustainable? And he first immediately was like, no. And I was like, so this is actually why we don’t hit quarterly goals is because we set the goals and then we don’t literally create the habits day to day and ask ourselves, is this a life that I would want to live and get excited every single day to wake up and do? And if the answer is no, then we need to start to work backwards from there.

John Jantsch (19:46): Yeah, actually, somebody inadvertently showed me their calendar this week. That was the most scariest thing I’ve ever seen. Just they from about seven in the morning to seven at night had something every 15 minutes growth. I think it’s stage four maybe growth a lot of times happens to people and maybe people you’ve worked with, they’ve gotten some of this other clutter out of the way. And so growth happens and then another problem shows up, quality starts to fade. I mean, how do you constantly juggle those two things that are sometimes in opposition?

Alyson Caffrey (20:17): It’s interesting, I have an entire section in the book about this because that is by far with agency work. The biggest thing I’ve seen. So the chapter is called Classic Coca-Cola Quality. And I tell this story about how Coca-Cola launched this thing called New Coke, and it just failed. Epically failed. They tested it, they asked the market, they did all these things around launching this new product, and it was terrible. Folks actually started stocking up on Coca-Cola Classic because they petrified that it was going to go away. Then it’s either, I was joking about it, I was like, this is either the best marketing scheme ever, or it was just the biggest classic face plant for Coca-Cola to launch this new thing. And really what it came down to was the quality, right? It came down to, well, people preferred this over that and they thought that they were going in the direction of what people wanted, but ultimately they needed to listen to their people.

(21:13): And so what they did was they launched Coca-Cola Classic. So first and foremost, if you’re in a growth stage, keep asking your people for their feedback 100%. That is the best way that you will know and understand and just open up the conversation that, Hey, listen, we’re going through a growth period right now and I still really value your feedback and I want to make sure that you continue to get results, even if there are several missteps in your fulfillment process and you’re still working out some stuff because you’ve opened up that loop with your clients and because they know that it’s important to you that you hear from them, they’re going to be a little bit more understanding if there are a couple of missteps. So that’s number one. Just open up that and listen to your clients. Second thing is to make sure that we’re defining two types of quality.

(21:57): First is production quality. So that’s the timeline through which things are delivered. And the second is outcome, quality. So that’s ad spend. That’s specific outcomes that you are getting for your clients and quality levels there. So defining those metrics are going to be absolutely instrumental. And then just again, do that little equation, right? Consider to yourself, we have 20 clients right now where we can ship websites in about three weeks time at this level of quality, measurable. If we had 50, here’s what that would look like. The clearer you can get on those metrics, the easier it is to run possible resourcing scenarios, and you can kind of hedge these growth points and these friction points a little bit simpler.

John Jantsch (22:42): This is a scary idea for some people, but I’m always telling you have capacity ahead of demand, because that’s where I see people really get in trouble is like, oh crap, we just sold a whole bunch of more work. Let’s go fix it somehow, as opposed to, oh, we’ve got the capacity and our normal systems to deliver. Okay, last question. Last idea is profits and prosper. I dunno about you, but I’m just amazed at the businesses I’ve come across over the years. Were profits in particular just aren’t even part of the equation. It’s like, I want to get paid a job. And the idea of working profits into it, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Mike Al’s work profits first. That idea is just so foreign to people.

Alyson Caffrey (23:24): Yeah, I love Profit First and I think being disciplined in prioritizing profit, either in distribution to owner and key stakeholders or in early growth years, reinvesting into the business and the professional development of the leaders or both, right? If we’ve got the margins and they’re really is critical. I think it’s John Maxwell does Leader Lid. It’s like a really famous concept and he talks about that the leader or the organization will only grow to the capacity that the leader has professionally and personally developed. And I think if we leave out profits, not only are we doing our business a disservice because businesses exist to be profitable, we exist to make money and reinvest that money into growth and reinvest that money into our communities and into our families and all those things. Understanding that economically, it’s our job to be profitable, I think is first. Second is that we are going to do our business and our community and our teammates a disservice by not reinvesting our profits into our professional development, especially in those early years.

(24:28): And then creating a professional development budget as things start to get a little bit more sophisticated. I mean, hands down has been the absolute leader in why operations agency has been able to grow to the point that it is. And why I’ve been able to confidently lead and be able to get folks unstuck with their operations is because of the level of professional development that I’ve done over the years. And I think a lot of folks forget about that and they think, well, I’m just going to discount my prices and tough seasons and I’m just going to take this project or what have you. But being disciplined and saying, Nope, this is our pricing because this is our scoping and this is our profit margin, I promise. Well, sorry, I can’t make any financial promises probably on a podcast, but I will say that it has been my experience that the more I say no to projects that are hefty discounts or things that perhaps I’m not excited about or don’t fit into our model specifically, I have been rewarded tenfold on the other side with projects that are exactly in our wheelhouse, exactly in our scope, and exactly within the profits that we desire.

John Jantsch (25:29): And had you taken those less than desirable projects, that opportunity may not have come your way. I see that all the time. It’s like, I’m busy doing this work over here, so I can’t see the real thing, the opportunity that’s in front of me. So Alison, you want to tell people or invite people where they might connect with you, find out more about your work, obviously find out about how they can acquire the book.

Alyson Caffrey (25:50): Yeah, of course. Well, the book is on Amazon. I’m most active on Instagram, so you can follow us at Operations agency and if you DM me Duct Tape, I’ll send you my five best agency SOPs, absolutely no opt-in absolutely free. So that I think will be the really best way for folks to just see what the power of having really clear standard operating procedures looks like in your agency. And I have been totally victim in the past to not being able to actually see the results of something before I get a tiny taste. So I think that’ll be a great place to start.

John Jantsch (26:22): Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, and hopefully we’ll run into you only these days out there on the road.

Alyson Caffrey (26:30): Thanks, John.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by:

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Fractional CMOs As Strategy Architects with Angelo Ponzi

Fractional CMOs As Strategy Architects with Angelo Ponzi written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Ducttape Marketing Podcast with Angelo Ponzi

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview(ed) Angelo Ponzi. This week, we´re going to be re-gifting you your favorite episodes! Angelo Ponzi is a marketing and branding strategist who works with small to middle-market companies as their Fractional CMO. His company, Craft, focuses on three strategic pillars for success: Insights, Brand, and Plan. These pillars are to develop effective and efficient programs for building enduring brands and sustainable business growth.

Key Takeaway:

Fractional CMOs, besides being a flexible and cost-effective solution for businesses, contribute to long-term growth through strategy development, messaging refinement, and navigating marketing challenges. Angelo highlights the importance of balancing new business endeavors with client service when operating one’s agency. Staying actively engaged in networking and marketing efforts is essential to remain present in the fractional CMO arena and seize potential opportunities.

Questions I ask Angelo Ponzi:

[01:12] How do you define the term Fractional CMO?
[02:02] What kind of business and what kind of challenges are they facing that you think makes an ideal fit for a fractional strategic marketing hire?
[03:34] If somebody hires a CMO, do they feel like they’re also hiring an implement mentor, or are they strictly separate functions?
[04:57] Are there ever some turf wars, even though you’re brought in to help them orchestrate better?
[06:25] Besides the cost component, what other things might you suggest about the fractional CMO model being a good idea for businesses?
[09:52] Are you finding much more recognition of the concept and the term, particularly for midsize business owners?
[11:04] What hard lessons have you learned as a Fractional CMO?
[13:05] How do you scale this model?
[18:03] Do you focus on the same thing frequently?

More About Angelo Ponzi:

Connect with Angelo on LinkedIn.
Angelo’s website.

If you enjoyed this episode, check out the Ultimate Guide to Scaling a Fractional CMO Business.

Duct Tape Transcript

(00:30): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Angelo Ponzi. He’s a marketing and branding strategist that works with small to mid-market companies as their fractional chief marketing officer, fractional CMO. His company Craft focuses on three strategic pillars for success, insights brand and plan to develop effective and efficient programs for building enduring brands and sustainable business growth. So Angela, welcome to the show,

Angelo Ponzi (01:03): John. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

John Jantsch (01:05): So I still think there’s a lot of confusion around it, like a lot of terms in marketing. So I’m just going to go ahead and say, if somebody says you, you’re a fractional CMO, what is that? How do you describe that? How do you define that term?

Angelo Ponzi (01:17): Yeah. Well, I think simply it’s a part-time outsource contract situation. So for me, fractional being that it’s not a short-term contract, it’s a long-term engagement where I’m going into the organization or depending on my remote client, where I’m engaged on a weekly basis, sometimes daily basis with them. And so think of me as the guy down the hallway, not the guy across the country. Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:48): So I mean, would you describe a business that you think is a typical great fit for that? I mean, most people are familiar with the C-Suite roles, a chief marketing officer inside of an organization, but what kind of business or what kind of challenge are they facing that you think makes an ideal fit for a fractional strategic marketing hire?

Angelo Ponzi (02:10): Sure. In most of the companies that I’ve dealt with, they have some kind of a marketing manager or a team in there. Typically, they tend to be a little more transactional in nature, just tactically oriented. And so I hear things like, our sales aren’t growing, our messaging is not correct. Our competition is eating our lunch. And so looking at those kinds of issues, so they can’t get to that next level with someone who’s more of a tactical transactional person. So they may start to think of a strategic person, however, a full-time CMO doesn’t necessarily come cheap. And so they wrestle with how do I get a senior person without having to have all that expense? And that’s typically what get engaged or when they’ll call me, because again, depending on the client, how much time I’m engaged, but I sit in that C-suite level and helping develop strategies and directions and messaging and competitive differentiators, and then drive those down into the people that actually execute.

John Jantsch (03:21): Do you get yourself in engagements where they’re like, Angelo, this is great, but who’s going to do all this? I mean, is there ever an expectation that you are going to do the work or that any strategic, if somebody hires A CMO, do they feel like they’re also hiring an implement mentor, or is it strictly separate functions?

Angelo Ponzi (03:43): Yeah, well, that’s always the dilemma for me. It’s my nature to tend to go across the line and start facilitating and doing, but I’m pretty clear upfront is what my purpose is. If someone calls me and says, look it, I need a website, I need a social media or digital campaign, my reaction is let’s talk about your messaging, your strategies, and if that’s not correct, I have to start to the left, right? I got to talk to your customers that look at the competition, examine the marketplace and work our way towards execution. So I like to refer to myself sometimes as an architect, I’m building that foundational strategy. And then once the plans are in place, then I will sometimes call myself a general contractor and therefore I’ll bring in outside people to execute or work with the internal teams. But I do cross the fence, but a lot of times they’re like, I’m not going to pay you to frankly write a blog. It’s too expensive.

John Jantsch (04:44): Yeah. So do you find internal teams, I hear this a lot. Do you find that sometimes there’s some turf? Like, wait a minute, I thought that’s what we did. Why are we bringing in this outside person doesn’t know our business? Is there ever some turf wars sometimes, even though you’re brought in maybe to help them orchestrate better?

Angelo Ponzi (05:03): I can honestly say, actually, I can honestly say it’s only happened maybe once or twice where I’ll spend, I’m thinking of a technology company. A couple of years ago they brought me in, the marketing person was out of college for a couple of years. He had his own vision. They brought me in, I revamped everything, redid all their messaging, their plans, and then here’s the plan to implement. And within three months, he was back doing what he wanted to do because they didn’t know how to really manage him. But I would say in most situations, I’m very collaborative, so it’s not my way or the highway. So I find that even after I leave, they’re implementing. I have a company in the streaming space that I helped them when they launched. That was five years ago. When I see him constantly, he’ll be the first to say, I’m still working on the strategies you gave us five years ago. And so that’s really rewarding. But yeah, that is always a challenge, right? Because not invented here, somebody wants to put their own mark on it.

John Jantsch (06:08): Yeah. I’m sure there are some cases, I’m going to assume there’s some cases you’ve run into where they’re considering hiring you versus considering hiring a full-time strategic hire. If you were trying to help somebody work through the pros and cons, besides the cost component, which is obviously a huge selling point on the fractional approach, what are some other things that you might suggest that why the fractional CMO model is a good idea for them?

Angelo Ponzi (06:39): Well, partially too. It’s really what does that strategic leader need to do and what is the long-term play with that leader? Are you going to have somebody who’s who can totally stay engaged throughout the time and do all the things that you need ’em to do, otherwise they start to gravitate into the tactical and then you don’t really need that. I have a current client where we’re looking, I’m filling the strategic leader role, and at the end of the day, they don’t need a full-time me, but they need more worker bees, if you will. And so my recommendation is keep me engaged. Of course, that’s what I would like, but instead of hiring someone like me full-time, take that money and then let’s invest in more people at the real marketing level that the tactical level that needed to get things done. I was brought in last year with a consumer products company that had a CMO.

(07:35): They let him go, and he called me and said, Hey, I’m thinking about hiring. I think I need a fractional. And then about three weeks later, he called me and said, no, you know what? I decided to go. And then three months later, he called me and said, I haven’t found anybody. I think my original idea was great, come in for 90 days, help me. And I was there for eight months before we brought in. I helped bring in my own replacement at that point in time. They really needed somebody there. And there was a situation where I was there three days a week, so I literally was in the office and spending the majority of my time working for that organization.

John Jantsch (08:12): Do you find that to me, one of the benefits I think too, is a lot of times you bring in that CMO, well, they’re going to say, we need to build a team internally. And so they start kind of down the traditional path of hiring, whereas I’m assuming that in many cases you kind of look at this and say, no, we just need this expertise to do this one thing, and then we can rent this to do this one thing. And I mean, you’re really able to put together a much more affordable approach for exactly what they need, aren’t you?

Angelo Ponzi (08:41): Yeah, no, absolutely. It’s current client, they had a digital firm primarily writing blogs, and I analyzed it, and every blog had to be rewritten. And after eight, nine months, you would’ve thought that they understood the business. So I tried to engage with them, and ultimately we ended up parting ways. But instead of hiring another firm just like them, I went out and found a content writer that for a fraction of the cost, I could have twice as many blogs for literally a third of the money that I was paying them already. And so that is one of the things I look at. To me, I always look at any client I work with is my business. I was fortunate to, over the years, I grew a couple of businesses, I was fortunate to sell them, and I understand that a dollar is a dollar, and if I have to watch it for me, I have to watch it for you. So it’s really about maximizing the talent and the dollars that we have.

John Jantsch (09:42): I have been doing this approach probably for 15 years, but didn’t use the term fractional CMO because it didn’t mean anything to a small mid-size business at the time. Are you finding there’s a much more recognition of the concept and the term when you go out and talk to particularly mid-size business owners?

Angelo Ponzi (10:00): Yeah, absolutely. And I’ll go back. I mean, I’m heading into my 10th year, and in those first three or four years, it was like, I don’t understand what a fractional is. Are you contract? Are you outsourced? What are you, right? So there was different terms floating around. I haven’t had anybody really recently say they don’t understand it. I just say, you’re renting my time basically during the course of the week. So I think it’s better understood. I’d even think some of the value of having someone like myself that clients find now versus because it’s a tough decision, do you spend that kind of money? I had a client the other day that, again, looking at bringing in more workers than strategic leaders, and he said to me, well, what if we could hire you? And I suppose my answer was, you can’t. It’s not what I want to do because I knew I would eventually, I would just be pulling my hair out because they don’t need someone full-time like me.

John Jantsch (11:00): So as you’ve grown this and scaled it yourself, are there some hard lessons learned that you might share to say these are some of the landmines that you might look for?

Angelo Ponzi (11:14): Well, I think first of all, for me, and unfortunately it was a very hard lesson. I had an opportunity back in maybe 17, I think it was, to go in as a fractional, but it was like an eight month contract. And I was like, this is great. The money was great. I was excited, and when the contract was over, I was sitting there. I have no business. I wasn’t doing any marketing, I wasn’t keeping the pipeline. So anybody out there listening, if you’re doing what I do or something even similar, having your own agency, I mean, it is a constant balance of doing new business while you’re servicing the clients. I personally now, I would say in the course of the week, I spend a full day throughout the week, but networking, doing my own marketing, doing stuff like this and just making sure that I’m staying ever present, because you just never know.

(12:09): I mean, I have one prospect that I pitched in February. He literally said, you’re hired, but there’s no contract yet. Now it’s August. I still think you’ll come around, but I’m on his time. He’s not on my time. So that’s probably the biggest lesson that I’ve learned and making sure that you have a point of view and you put yourself out there. I mean, I have a blogging program, a newsletter program. I do emails, I do LinkedIn, I do public speaking. I just want to be able to have content. It’s all content to me to refer

John Jantsch (12:44): People too. Absolutely. Yeah. We actually teach people how to start this model, and I tell them, especially when they’re just getting started, I said, the thing nobody tells you is about 50% of this job is selling, but that’s true of really any business. When you start it, that kind of leads to one of the challenges I see a lot of people, how do you scale this model? I mean, in the traditional sense, somebody’s A CMO, they jump out on their own. They go, I’m going to be a fractional CMO, and they end up selling a fourth of their time and basically saying, I’m fully employed. I’m getting paid well for my time, but I can’t really scale a business. Have you run into that? Have you addressed that?

Angelo Ponzi (13:25): Yeah, it’s a really interesting challenge. So before I formed my agency, for example, this was many years ago, I actually, they didn’t call it fractional, but I broke off as a consultant. And so I left an agency, decided to be a strategic planner for agencies, and then eventually I came to the conclusion after about three years, why am I doing this for you? Why don’t I do it for myself? And so I kind of scaled that. So in this particular model for me, I have identified other CMOs, fractional CMOs or VP leaders, if you will, that are out on their own that I can partner with. One of my biggest clients last year is actually a competitor, but I have a background in research. So they don’t do research. They don’t do really branding and messaging and positioning. They’re more kind of internal management. And so we compliment each other.

(14:28): So one of the things that I did to scale is I identified in my trading area who my competitors are. I’ve literally met with every one of ’em trying to figure out are we really competitors or can we work together? And I would say the majority of ’em I can work with. And so I’ve also identified in some of the other key areas. So I have a business analyst that works with me that I pretty much dominate. I have a data scientist that works with me. I have a brand strategist that actually I worked with for years, even in my own agency that happened to, I lost their job during covid and now works for me as kind of a behind the scenes. So I’ve been scaling by putting other people in place, frankly, to do some of the work that allows me to continue to devote some of my time to networking and building the business, but also when I have to be in front of a client,

John Jantsch (15:23): The mistake I see some people make is just like, you get 25% of my time, what do you want? And it’s like they’re dictating. There’s no scope in agencies. We’d scope things out. And I see a lot of people when they do these consulting things, they don’t do that. And so they’re sort of at the whim of a client who doesn’t really know what they need. And I think that’s a key change that I think can allow people to scale this.

Angelo Ponzi (15:51): Yeah, well, one of the things I did to get around that is I created an assessment that I give at the beginning of every engagement just to really try to understand where they think they are, where they really are, where they think they are, but also among the team, I look for alignment, internal alignment. And so that has allowed me to actually through the analysis to say, okay, here’s where we’ve got some real issues and some problems you want to be, I’m just going through this with a client now where when I joined them back in February, they had a $5 million goal for this year increase in revenue. Well, as I started to dig into the data, it’s like, where’d that number come from? Your average growth is only 8% over the last three years. How do you go from 8% frankly to a 37% increase?

(16:39): I don’t see how you’re getting there. So some number was picked out of the air. So trying to bring, creating strategies, now that’s giving me guidance as opposed to, what do you think? If I would’ve just said, okay, I’m going to support a 37% increase, which I did originally, and then eventually I’ve swung them back to say, okay, how are we going to get, maybe it’s 15%, not the eight, but the 15. And I literally just said this to one of my marketing managers today. There’s an endless amount of things to do in marketing. You’ve got a plan and you always go back to the plan and just if you got, you are unsure of your messaging or somebody in sales is pushing back on you, try to understand what’s happening with them. Go talk to them, go listen to a call. So I find that sometimes in that marketing manager role, they tend to go, oh, well, that was my assignment. I did it and now what do I do?

John Jantsch (17:34): Yeah. It’s interesting. I find that we spend as much time, especially early on telling people what not to do as opposed to what to do, because always this temptation to say, oh, there’s a new thing out there. We have to do it. As opposed to doing any of them, right?

Angelo Ponzi (17:51): Yeah, exactly.

John Jantsch (17:52): And that’s what I was going to ask you kind of halfway answered it anyway, but let’s say we get through the assessment. Obviously the assessment’s going to tell you maybe some direction, but do you typically focus on, do you find that you end up focusing on the same thing pretty frequently? What to fix first, so to speak?

Angelo Ponzi (18:10): Actually, no, because they have, it’s like our sales aren’t growing or we’re not achieving, or we think we have an issue. And I have found that if I can execute my assessment in the process that I do, I can uncover things that they’re not thinking about. Good case in point, this was last year working with a manufacturing rep organization, been around for 70 plus years. And so in talking to them and say, our clients love us, they’re mechanical engineers, they know us. We’ve been, we’re a focus. We’re always included, but I got them to agree to let me talk to their customers. Originally it was like, wow, I don’t waste your time. What we found is that they were right. Everybody knows them, everybody includes them. However, their primary customers were about ready to retire. The new generation of engineers had no idea who they were or knew them, but they were now thinking about environmental products and sustainability products, not the gas guzzlers, if you will, that are being put out. And so all of a sudden we identified a potential opportunity that they would’ve never seen until it happened. So now they were able to get ahead of it. So it’s that kind of stuff that we get to uncover, but that wasn’t one, that wasn’t something they told me to go do. That was just something that came, cream of the cop came rising up and we able to tackle it.

John Jantsch (19:41): Yeah, I have had so many insights over the years by talking to people’s customers. I mean, they know very little about why their customers buy from them sometimes. It’s pretty amazing, isn’t it? Or they make assumptions that are wrong

Angelo Ponzi (19:53): Or what the salespeople tell ’em. Right? Right. There’s a question I always like to ask is I ask the clients, do you think your clients are buying, are aware of all the products and services you sell? And almost always they say no. And to me it’s like, well then what are you doing to educate them? You could be leaving a lot of money on the table if they just knew more. And then we find out I asked those questions on the flip side, and almost across the board, the client will say, now I don’t really understand all the stuff they sell. I only know this. So right there, there’s a gap, right. So anyway,

John Jantsch (20:30): It’s fine. Yeah, that’s actually some easy money sometimes, isn’t it? Well, Angela, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by. You want to invite people to connect with you anywhere or find out more about your work.

Angelo Ponzi (20:39): Sure. That would be great. The best place, of course, is to go to LinkedIn. You can connect with me there. That’s the easiest. Also, all my contact info is there. As far as my website, I actually encourage people to sign up. I do publish a newsletter through LinkedIn every couple of weeks, and so do that. And that’s the best way to find out more about me.

John Jantsch (20:59): Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you taking a few moments out of your day, and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Angelo Ponzi (21:05): Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity.

How to Translate Your Passion Into Your Purpose with Liz Elting

How to Translate Your Passion Into Your Purpose with Liz Elting written by Tosin Jerugba read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Ducttape Marketing Podcast with Liz Elting

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview(ed) Liz Elting. This week, we´re going to be re-gifting you your favorite episodes! Liz is the co-founder and CEO of the award-winning TransPerfect. TransPerfect is the world’s largest provider of language and business solutions, boasting over $1.1 billion in revenue and offices in over 100 cities around the globe. Additionally, she founded the Elizabeth Elting Foundation, a non-profit organization created to break down systemic barriers and foster systemic change for women and other underserved communities.

She has been named one of Forbes’ Richest Self-Made Women every year since the list’s inception. She is the author of the upcoming book DREAM BIG AND WIN: Translating Passion into Purpose and Creating a Billion-Dollar Business and a contributor at Forbes and SWAAY. Relisten and Enjoy!

Key Takeaway:

Almost any dream can become a reality with the right mindset and strategies. Learn how setting goals with deadlines, embracing constant innovation, and empowering women can lead to billion-dollar success. Liz’s journey from starting TransPerfect to her philanthropic endeavors is an inspiring roadmap for aspiring entrepreneurs and leaders. Dream big, take action, and win!

Questions I ask Liz Elting:

(01:12): What motivated you to establish TransPerfect, and how does that tie into why you wrote your book?
(04:05): What were some of the most challenging lessons you had to learn as you grew your company?
(08:17): How would someone take it beyond just the dream into reality?
(10:20): How do you balance or weigh the importance of taking risks?
(11:26): What advice do you have for those aspiring to launch the next Google? Where can they find big ideas?
(12:50): How have you adapted TransPerfect to meet changing global trends? How can others do this?
(15:03): Was philanthropy a goal or a happy side effect of your success?
(17:40): Do you see being a woman in your field as an advantage or disadvantage? How has it shaped your experience?

More About Liz Elting:

Liz’s book: DREAM BIG AND WIN: Translating Passion Into Purpose and Creating a Billion-Dollar Business
More about the Elizabeth Elting Foundation
Liz’s website
Connect with Liz on LinkedIn

Get Your Free AI Prompts To Build A Marketing Strategy:

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Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

Duct Tape Transcript

(00:29): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Liz Elting. She’s the founder and c e o of the Elizabeth Elting Foundation is an entrepreneur, business leader. I didn’t know they threw this word in there for me. Lingo, file, philanthropist and feminist. Liz is the founder of TransPerfect World’s largest language solution company with over $1 billion in revenue and offices in more than 100 cities worldwide. We’re going to talk about her latest book, dream Big and Win, translating Passion Into Purpose and Creating a Billion Dollar Business. So Liz, welcome to the show.

Liz (01:08): Thank you so much, John. I’m so excited to be here.

John (01:12): So we’re going to get into the book, but I want to go back in time a little bit because it’s relevant, I think, to you writing the book. What led you to start TransPerfect?

Liz (01:21): Well, I had always loved language. I mean the English language and then languages. I had the opportunity to live in a number of foreign countries, Portugal when I was little, then Canada when I was 10 until college, and then I did my junior year in Spain and I worked in Venezuela, and I was able to study four languages, so Portuguese, Spanish, French, and Latin loved languages. Went to school, decided to major in languages and didn’t know what on earth I would do with it. That was the concern because I was very practical. But I ended up getting a job shortly after my internship in Venezuela, which was shortly after graduating from college. But I got a job at a translation company in the late eighties, and it at the time was the world’s largest. It was about 90 people, and I realized, wow, what a beautiful way to combine language and business and what a perfect way to do.

(02:13): So I was there for three years. First I was in production, and then I moved over to sales, and I thought, what a wonderful industry and what a necessary industry, but I think it can be done better. I saw a real gap between what clients needed and what was available in the industry. So went back to school, got my M B A from N Y U and had a very brief stint in finance. Felt like I had to try out finance just because I had my M B A from N Y U, and that’s what people from Y U did. 70% of majors went into were finance majors, and I tried it, tried it out. So briefly after six weeks I left and I thought, wow, I loved the translation industry, and I had a thought on how it could be done better and this finance is not for me. So with that, that’s kind of the moment I decided, okay, I’m going to start TransPerfect. And really with the goal being to build the world’s largest language solutions company. At the time, there were about 10,000 other companies. That’s what I did. But they were tiny. They were mom and pop.

John (03:15): Well, I was going to ask you that. You halfway answered it anyway, so I’ll let you really tee it up, but did you really started thinking, I can do this big giant thing, or was it just like, Hey, I can do this better?

Liz (03:26): Yeah, no, it is a great question because you never know how big you can make it. But I think what I thought was, as I said, there were 10,000 translation companies out there in 1992 when we started, but they were really companies that were started and run by translators who were enormously talented, but they were busy doing the translation work, so they couldn’t scale their companies. So I thought, if I’m going to do this, I want it to be different and better. And the biggest, I just figured if I’m going to not use that M B A and take the risk, I’m going to go for broke. And so that was certainly the goal.

John (04:05): I always love to ask entrepreneurs this question. A lot of times it’s because they can look in the rear view mirror now to answer this, but what were some of the hardest lessons that you learned or had to learn in growing? Obviously many people don’t get past a million dollars, let alone another zero on there. What were some of the hardest lessons?

Liz (04:23): So learned a lot of things. Did many, many things wrong. In the early days. We worked so hard on selling and just realized we had to sell. We needed to bring in revenue as quickly as possible. We didn’t have funding. So to some degree we were able to do that, and that was wonderful. We brought in business, so we needed to hire quickly, and we brought in some people who were excellent, and actually some who were amazing, and then some who weren’t so good. But what happened was we were working so hard on selling that we had too much work because we could only find people so quickly. Back then, in the early nineties or even the mid nineties, people didn’t want to work for a startup. We didn’t have the big name. We were this tiny company with a lot of work, crazy hours, and we were asking a lot of people and we thought, okay, well, we’ll just pay them a bonus.

(05:12): We’ll just pay them more money and they’ll pull that all nighter. But we had a lot of turnover in those days. We lost a lot of people because you can’t do that to people no matter how much you pay them. They need their life. And we learned quickly that we needed to scale carefully, make sure we were trying to grow, but we also needed to make sure we brought in the right people and then we gave them a reasonable situation. So we learned from that to basically set up shifts. We had what we called T one, T two and T three different shifts so that people were not working through the night. We also opened other offices in different time zones, and we had those time zones cover for the other time zone, and then finally comp days. But we found ways around it, but we had a lot of turnover in the early days because of the situation.

John (06:03): I think most businesses, especially if you grow rapidly, I mean you had never run a company of that size mean, so you were learning on the job. And I think that that’s an area that sinks a lot of businesses. I mean, the people management part is probably the hardest part when you grow rapidly, isn’t it?

Liz (06:20): Yeah. And I think it’s the hardest part no matter what, right? I mean, yes, when you grow rapidly, because in the end, I mean, we grew pretty quickly, but we did this for 26 years, or actually, I did this for 26. It didn’t feel so rapid at the time, but we couldn’t bring in good people. We couldn’t bring in people quickly enough who, and we didn’t figure out how to manage their hours. But you’re right. You’re right. When you’re growing quickly, it’s hard. But I think finding, developing and retaining great people is the hardest part of every business. I’m sure you hear that and you know that we hear it all the time. That is the hardest.

John (07:00): Well, and you were kind of pre-internet, a pre global economy mean, so you needed people all over the world, and they were not as easy to find as they are today. You didn’t have the marketplaces where you could find ’em. I’m curious, Wiley is your publisher on this book, right? Is that right? They

Liz (07:15): Are. Did

John (07:15): I remember? Yeah. So was there any wrestling over the title? And the reason I ask that is there’s some people that the thought of creating a billion dollar business just doesn’t even seem on the table. Did you have any, I’m just curious if you had any discussion with your editor on that title?

Liz (07:33): Yes, we did. Because I think you’re right. A lot of people think, well, that’s just out of the realm of possibility. Why would I even bother? And this book, certainly it’s for everybody. It’s for people who want to create million companies and 5 million companies and 10 million companies. So we did, but I think we put it on there ultimately because we wanted to show, you can do this. You can dream big, and I mean, dream very big, and you can create a billion dollar company. And I tried to share lessons I learned from what I did and the many things I did wrong, and you can get there. And it was to inspire people to realize they can reach for the stars and they could well make it. So that

John (08:17): Was idea, dream big and win and maybe make more money than you’re making today is probably not as inspirational, right? Right. So there are a lot of books that talk about dreaming big. I think one of the things I really like about your book is so few of them have the and win component because to some extent, it’s easy to dream big, isn’t it? So how do you take it beyond just the dream?

Liz (08:43): Right? And I’m so glad you said that because some people feel like they don’t want to talk about winning. Winning is a bad word, but for a lot of us, we’re very competitive, and if we’re doing it, we’re playing to win, and that’s who this is for. But the answer is it’s easy to dream. A dream without goals, with deadlines is just a wish, right? I mean, it’s all about goals with deadlines. And I talk a lot about that in the book about the daily goals. We had things like make 300 phone calls a day and send out 300 letters, and maybe now it would be emails, but every day and not letting the day pass without doing those things for an extended period of time. And I did it when I started the company and we had all of our salespeople doing it and held them to it.

(09:34): So that’s an example of goals with deadlines that we really had to adhere to. Another example is when we thought, okay, we’ve got to scale this to the next level. Basically we set out quarterly goals for when we’re going to open offices, and we said, okay, Q one, San Francisco, Q two Atlanta, Q three, Washington, DC Q four Chicago. And then we forced ourselves to do it. We didn’t give ourselves an out. And that sounds like that might be actually quite difficult, especially without funding, but we basically hired one person at a time. They needed to achieve certain sales goals, and then they could add a person and so on. But yes, I think goals with deadlines is the key, and that’s what a lot of people don’t want to do. But if you do that, I think it’s so key.

John (10:20): I think there’s a misconception out there with people who aren’t entrepreneurs that every entrepreneur is just this massive risk taker. I’d make the case that it’s actually riskier staying in a nine to five job for somebody. But talk a little bit about, I mean, because you took some big risks, talk a little bit about what you think the role or the balance or the importance of risk is.

Liz (10:43): Yes. No, you’re right. And I agree with you. It can be more of a risk if you’re working for someone else, because then you’re at their mercy. That’s right. Which boss you’re going to get. You don’t know what the boss is going to ask of you. You don’t know what’s going to happen going to happen to the company. Plenty of companies go out of business, they lay people off, whatever it is. So yes, whereas you can control your own destiny if you take what some people might consider the risk, and I agree with you, it’s not a risk. If by chance it doesn’t work out, you learned a lot along the way and then you can go start something new. Or if you really don’t want to, you can go back to corporate life. But I agree with you. I think it’s more of a risk not to.

John (11:26): I’m sure people that will read this book will say, okay, I should dream big, but what do I need to start the next Google? Or where do I find the idea for my big?

Liz (11:37): Yeah. And I love that question or that, yes, because I feel like you should not confuse being an inventor with being an entrepreneur or being an entrepreneur with being an inventor. Basically, you can be wildly successful creating something entirely new. And certainly that was what we did. As I mentioned, 10,000 other companies were already doing it, but the idea was to do it better and differently. And there are all kinds of ways to do that, whether it’s with more urgency slash faster, whether it’s with more of a service orientation, really spoiling the client, whether it’s with having a global presence, whether it’s creating a one-stop shop. I mean, there’s so many ways to do it. And I always think about how Steve Jobs did it with the iPhone. It was originally the Blackberry, which had some issues. The screen wasn’t too big. I mean, there were a number of issues, and he wanted it to be able to do a lot more than just have its email usage. So the point is, yes, I think it’s the better way to go because there’s so many things out there that are being done, but they’re not being done as well as they could. And it’s finding that hole, finding that problem to solve.

John (12:50): So every new wave of technology potentially presents challenges for established businesses. I would venture to say that the translation business is going through a bit of an evolution because of ai. So how would you advise people, in some cases, it’s going to gut their profit. In other cases, it’s going to make them have to pivot altogether. I mean, how did you look at that kind of changing world to pivot or think about how you had to change the company?

Liz (13:25): Just to mean, and you probably know this, but I did sell five years ago, but still,

John (13:31): Yeah, I was using that as an example. Oh,

Liz (13:33): Yes. No, no, absolutely. Because machine translation became a part of things during my time in the industry, and you’re absolutely right. So what we did is we tried to incorporate it in any way that it could be helpful. And it was whether it was machine translation, cat tools, and now it’s ai, and I’m sure they’re using it to their advantage and making it so that it is helpful. But the other piece of it that we did, and I recommend doing it, is constantly innovating. And sure, we did it with starting as a company that had almost no technology because in 1992, you could barely mode something. I mean, there was no technology. It was crazy. But then along the way, we really incorporated technology. But as far as other things, we started a litigation solutions division. We started a staffing solutions division. We created technology solutions.

(14:27): And I think the point there is you get the client base and you work with these big companies and you see what else they need, and then you see what the needs are out there as time goes on, and you just keep innovating for your client base. So we kept working with the same clients. I mean huge global companies, but they needed other things. And it’s anticipating the client’s needs before they know they have them. It’s constant innovation. And I think that’s what we did during those 26 years that I was with the company. But I think I’m sure that’s what they’re doing now and what every great entrepreneur and every great C e O is doing.

John (15:03): Yeah, I mean, no question. Easier to sell more to people who already trust you than to go out and find new companies or new business. Absolutely. As people might’ve noted in the intro, in your intro, the first part talks about your foundation. So was philanthropy always a hope, a goal or kind of a happy side effect of what happened in your mind?

Liz (15:26): I think it always was a goal. I learned early on that I wanted to help people. I liked helping people. I mean, I did volunteer work, a lot of us did. But during my years as an entrepreneur, I didn’t have time like any entrepreneur that you barely have time for your company and your family, and that’s it. So I did figure eventually when I had more time, I would focus on the issues and I saw issues. I saw issues with women and how they were treated, how marginalized populations were treated, or people from marginalized communities were treated, and then all kinds of other issues. And the longer I’ve been doing it, the more issues I’m seeing everything from heart disease to cancer to hunger to gun safety. So now I did think, okay, I had a plan early on, and I’ll tell you partly why I had a plan.

(16:22): One thing that happened to me when I was 14, it was kind of the big event of my life. It was life changing. I was hit by a car. I was walking across the street in Vermont, and I flipped over, had a fractured skull, was unconscious for three days. My parents didn’t think I was going to wake up. And then they were thinking, okay, well if she wakes up, she’s probably going to have severe brain damage. Not being able to be able to talk or not be able to walk or something or both. Anyway, after three days, I was fortunate I did come out of this coma, but there was someone else with the exact same injury. So I realized, oh my gosh, I’m the lucky one. I need to do something important here. I could have just as easily lost my life. And then of course, I was lucky with having parents who encouraged education and supported me through it, and being able to be an entrepreneur who hired amazing people. I mean, we in the end had an amazing team that really built our company. So I was one of the lucky ones. So now here I am trying to help people who don’t come from situations where they can get the education. So work a lot on financial aid or try to encourage people to be entrepreneurs or I’m trying to help in all the areas that I just am more good fortune with, and some people don’t have it. So that’s the idea.

John (17:40): So talk a little bit about, you started to mention this a little bit, but did you see being a woman doing what you did as an advantage or a disadvantage?

Liz (17:51): I think

John (17:51): I have four daughters, so that’s maybe why I posed the question that way, because I’d love your take. No,

Liz (17:57): Absolutely. I think the reason actually what prompted me to start the company that I left out, I was trying to move along my answer. I know people don’t have all day, but when I was at the other company, shortly after getting my M B A where I was trying out finance, I was the only woman. And first thing that happened is whenever the phone rang, all the guys would yell Liz phone, because I was the woman. And I quickly realized, okay, that atmosphere was not for me. It felt sexist there, it did. Now, that was many years ago, going through the years as an entrepreneur and as a C E O or Co c e O, yeah, it was tough in a lot of ways, being a woman, people assumed that my partner was the c e o when they first met us, when we just walked in, and I was his assistant because I was the woman.

(18:48): And then I felt like as we grew the company, I think it can be harder for women because when women are tough, they’re considered mean. Whereas when men are tough, they’re considered great leaders. I definitely felt some of that. And then I guess the other issue I saw is not so much that it affected me over time because I was in that leadership role, but other women that I saw at other companies, sometimes in our company, I think they weren’t always treated the way they should be. So I thought, okay, when I’m finished with this, I’m going to help them and support them because in many companies and in many parts of the world and in politics and throughout, it can be tougher for women. And so that’s why I’m focusing on it. And the wonderful thing for your daughters is this. In the nineties, we didn’t have a lot of groups, women’s group support.

(19:40): Now at companies, we ultimately had a women’s group at our company, we started one. There are so many amazing networking groups outside where women are supporting women and some wonderful men are supporting women too. And it’s much better, but we still have a ways to go. And I think as far as your daughters, one last thing is obviously they may find a terrific situation. There are wonderful companies out there, but I also think it’s great when women go and start their own companies and they can create their dream environment. And so I’m a huge proponent of that as well.

John (20:11): Well, I’ll brag a little bit. One of them has started and sold a company already, and then the other one is, one of my other ones is actually runs my company. So Oh

Liz (20:20): My gosh. Oh wow. So they’re entrepreneurs already

John (20:24): And very

Liz (20:24): Successful ones.

John (20:26): I love that

Liz (20:27): They don’t have to deal with these issues, or

John (20:30): Hopefully not, but Liz,

Liz (20:32): Wow, thank you. I said you had kids. I wasn’t imagining they were old enough to do that. You’re much two young

John (20:38): For them. I’ve got seven grandkids, so Oh my gosh.

Liz (20:41): You’ve accomplished a lot. Pretty more than I have.

John (20:43): Well, I wouldn’t go there, but, well, Liz, I appreciate you stopping by the show today. You want to tell people where they can maybe connect with you or find out more about your work, especially the foundation, and then clearly pick up a copy of Dream Big and Win.

Liz (20:57): Oh, thank you. Thank you so much, John. Yes, so my website is https://lizelting.com/, and my website is https://www.elizabetheltingfoundation.org . And then the book, dream Big and Win can be bought on Amazon. So dream Big and Win. Liz Elting, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, or whatever your preferred retailer is. But yes, thank you so much, John. This was wonderful.

John (21:21): Well, I appreciate you taking a moment, and hopefully we’ll run into one of these days out there on the road.

Liz (21:26): Oh, that would be amazing. So great talking to you. And so great talking to everybody.

Gain Client’s Trust by ensuring Cybersecurity

Gain Client’s Trust by ensuring Cybersecurity written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Zach Kromkowski

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Zach Kromkowski, co-founder of Sention, about the importance of cybersecurity for small businesses and marketing firms.

Zach’s cybersecurity journey began with a passion for problem-solving and a talent for turning ideas into reality. Blending intelligence, tenacity, and a love for community education, he simplifies cybersecurity through webinars, workshops, and consultations, helping MSPs and enterprises easily enhance their security.

We discuss best practices for system hardening, managing security in a distributed workforce, and the significance of password management and compliance standards. The conversation also touches on the risks AI poses in cybersecurity and the necessity of implementing two-factor authentication and VPNs. Zach emphasizes that adequate security doesn’t require a large budget and offers practical steps businesses can take to enhance their security posture.

Key Takeaways

Cybersecurity is crucial for marketing firms and small businesses.
System hardening can be done without a large budget.
Managing security in a distributed workforce requires clear policies.
Google Workspace users should regularly review linked accounts.
Password managers are essential for secure password storage.
Two-factor authentication (2FA) is a must for all software.
SOC 2 compliance is a common standard for businesses.
AI poses unique risks in cybersecurity that need to be addressed.
Adding layers of security can deter potential attacks.
Educating employees about security risks builds trust.

Chapters

[00:00] Introduction to Cybersecurity and Marketing

[02:00] Best Practices for Small Businesses

[04:59] Managing Security in a Distributed Workforce

[07:59] Enhancing Security with Google Workspace

[10:58] Password Management Best Practices

[13:58] The Role of VPNs in Security

[16:59] Understanding Compliance Standards

[18:10] AI Risks in Cybersecurity

[21:52] Conclusion and Resources

More About Zach Kromkowski:

Add Zach Kromkowski on LinkedIn
Check out his Website
Subscribe to his YouTube channel

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by:

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Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00): I was like, I found it. I found it. This is what I’ve been looking for. I can honestly say it has genuinely changed the way I run my business. It’s changed the results that I’m seeing. It’s changed my engagement with clients. It’s changed my engagement with the team. I couldn’t be happier. Honestly. It’s the best investment I ever made.

(00:16): What you just heard was a testimonial from a recent graduate of the Duct Tape Marketing certification intensive program for fractional CMOs marketing agencies and consultants just like them. You could choose our system to move from vendor to trusted advisor, attract only ideal clients, and confidently present your strategies to build monthly recurring revenue. Visit DTM world slash scale to book your free advisory call and learn more. It’s time to transform your approach. Book your call today, DTM world slash scale. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Zach Kromkowski. I was so worried about the last name that I’ve messed up. You

Zack Kromkowski (01:15): Overthought the last name and you got the first name. No worries.

John Jantsch (01:19): Kromkowski. Here we go. He is a force in cybersecurity driven to make system hardening both effective and accessible. Co-founder of Ion, he and his team developed an innovative platform that automates hardening for workstation servers and browsers to CIS standards, streamlining compliance and security. So we’re going to talk about security cybersecurity, I suppose more specifically. So this is a topic that is not necessarily marketing very related to what we do as marketers, very related to what we do as business owners. So Zach, welcome to the show.

Zack Kromkowski (01:54): Yeah, thank you for having me on. And I mean, you kicked off right there, John. Why is this relatable to marketing firms and owners? I mean, our little pre-session banter, it’s like us marketing firms, and when we work with clients, they’re telling us a lot of their ip. They’re telling us their brand, their image. All of these details is how bad actors might be able to create a more targeted phishing email or a more targeted, more persuasive email that isn’t real. So even though we’re talking about security on a marketing podcast, it’s all related. So I really appreciate the pre-show banter we had, John.

John Jantsch (02:30): Yeah, well, and not to mention, I mean, we have clients that their cousin’s, ex-boyfriend set up all of their passwords on things and they just have ’em on a spreadsheet and they give ’em to us. And as a marketing agency, in some ways that makes life easier because I’ve got all the keys, right? But it’s also should be very scary to anybody that is taking that data. So let’s kind of back up and can you give us some best practices on the typical small business we can get into? The agency maybe is a little different, but the typical small business, what are some of the things they need to be doing as just routine practices? Not because the sky’s falling, just but because lots of things happen, right? You’ve got bad actors, but you’ve also got disgruntled employees. Maybe you’ve got lots of things that can happen in the world because stuff happens. So let’s kind of start there. What are the basics?

Zack Kromkowski (03:26): Yeah, I mean, there’s risk to anything. Again, in that pre-show we talked about as Duct Tape Marketing, you have your own third party vendors. What can I do to protect myself? And you shared a little bit about that. So

(03:37): Talking to those basics, there’s a misconception with security that you have to invest hundreds, thousands of dollars just to have security. And I’ll be the first vendor to admit, you don’t need to spend a ton of money on security. There are things you can do specifically called system hardening. So this is one of the first things, in my opinion, any business owner, any SMB can really focus on. This is a concept of understanding. Where are your assets? Where are your computers? Where is your server? Maybe you have one, maybe you don’t. Where are your computers? And the next step of saying how are they configured? What software is installed on this computer? How can I configure that new software to be more secure? So talking about some of these easy examples, something every small business owner I talk to always and my parents, right? My family, for example, they want to save their passwords to the browser. This is universally just accepted. This is what everyone does. But the browser, the Google, the Microsoft Edge, these are not security first browser password storage methods. There are literally companies that dedicate their entire business model just to saving the password. So that’s like bit warden LastPass.

John Jantsch (04:58): And

Zack Kromkowski (04:58): When I talk about hardening, you can’t write a policy and say, Hey employees, I don’t want any of you to save your password to the browser and expect them to do that. When I talk about hardening, we literally remove the ability to save a password to the browser. That way that policy is enforced and happens by nature. There’s no way around it. So that’s one aspect of hardening, John.

John Jantsch (05:22): Yeah. Awesome. So what about, I guess, outstanding on that same topic. What about the fact that in my particular case, there is no server, there is no central office. In a lot of cases, people are using their own devices to connect to many of the assets. So how does somebody who has a distributed workforce, is that going to be different or are we really just going to run a much higher risk?

Zack Kromkowski (05:50): So this is another good follow up. It’s this concept of risk and being able to communicate this as a marketing or that owner is really important because if you can educate and talk towards your risk, it’s going to build more trust. And this trust, if I’m outsourcing my marketing as cion, I have to trust the person that I want to work with. So let’s say there is a distributor distributed network, BYOD devices. It’s my personal computer and my work computer. What can we do? One of the things, and I’ll stay on the topic of browsers, browser security, browser hardening is very important. You can write a policy to say, Hey, for work, you have to use the Google Chrome browser for personal use. The other one, the Edge, the Firefox. Or if you want to set up a Google workspace, if you have a little bit of budget to invest, you can create a Google Chrome profile and you configure the profile to have company standards and then the personal one they manage on their own. There is a level of risk to that decision because they still have access to the other profile. Worst case scenario, that profile is compromised and they find a way to get to the other one. But you at least have that segmentation to add an additional barrier to that bad actor. So when I talk about hardening, again, the key thing is here not to have default settings. If your settings are in defaults, a bad actor will know what the settings are before they get there.

(07:25): So if we can change some of those settings and create even the smallest barrier for that bad actor to have to invest 10 minutes instead of 30 seconds, they might just bypass you and go to the next target. They may not even try to hack you anymore.

John Jantsch (07:40): Yeah, a great example of that, not necessarily on a server, but many of our clients are on WordPress.

Zack Kromkowski (07:45): And

John Jantsch (07:47): Just a simple thing like changing the page name of the admin login does that same thing because they’re out there knowing that 90% of the sites out there, it’s admin, wpa, admin. And so if they’re not going to find that in the one second bot search, they’re probably going to move on. So

Zack Kromkowski (08:05): That is a really good example. And we talk about WordPress, but we can also talk about Microsoft in the same respect. So there’s also an administrator account on the workstation, on the laptop itself, and that admin account, I mean, we could talk about Fortinet firewalls, right? The password and newsrooms, if we just take that five minutes to change these default choices, it adds an extra layer of effort. And this is by most intensive purposes, the most important takeaway from the show is by adding layers of difficulty, even just one layer makes you a target that they probably won’t want to hit.

John Jantsch (08:42): Because you see a lot of these things are obviously being done by bots in a lot of cases. So the bots just told, ping this and so it’ll move on.

Zack Kromkowski (08:51): Exactly. That’s exactly right, John. That is a perfect way to say it.

John Jantsch (08:55): So what about many people? I don’t know what the percentages are these days, but a lot of, especially virtual companies have turned to Google Workspace as really a lot of their internal storage, their email, their calendars. What are some best practices for that? I know super admins have some security things they can set up. So what are some best practices to make sure that even if it’s not the most secure thing, you can make it more secure?

Zack Kromkowski (09:24): Absolutely. So this is going to go into more piss. You’re a Google House, you want to use single sign on, you just want to click sign on with Google, that’s great. But we do that so often. We’re just signing up for this free trial of that. It builds up so much. So my recommendation here would be one, look at Google had a recent update. My CISO is extremely excited, but you can actually see now all of the accounts that are linked to your single sign-on,

John Jantsch (09:54): And

Zack Kromkowski (09:54): You can easily remove that from having access, because again, this is looking at the layers of security. If your single account is unfortunately compromised, now they have access to everything

John Jantsch (10:07): And

Zack Kromkowski (10:07): Even things you don’t use or don’t need anymore. So doing that asset inventory review allows you to reduce your tax surface and reduce the things that have access. And let’s talk about the flip side of that. If that third party company, the one you did use single sign on to sign on with, and you don’t even need it anymore, they get compromised now, they can leverage that to attack you because you still are authenticated. You still have the permissions because you never removed it. So that first most important best practice would be to review what you currently have available via that single sign on.

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Zack Kromkowski (12:05): This is a good one. So this goes towards disabled browser password manager. So that one example is the most relatable to everyone because everyone knows what a password is. Everyone knows how to save a password. I’ll go high level on this, but there’s an organization, it’s a free nonprofit. It’s called Center for Internet Security, CIS, and they have free downloadable PDFs on how to configure your Google Chrome, how to configure your Microsoft Edge. And that setting, I gave the example of with passwords, that’s about one setting out of a hundred some different settings.

(12:41): So another example is when executing a download, you have to explicitly say, download it to this folder, right? It makes you do one extra click because for that fish, without that in place, that fish, you click automatically done with the extra layer. Now the user says, okay, I’m going to click this. Oh, now it wants to trigger a download. That’s not behavior I expected. And it allows your employee, it allows your clients, it allows you to take an extra second to say, is this what I thought would happen? And maybe that extra second prevents the worst from happening.

John Jantsch (13:21): A little bit about password management as it relates to certainly to Google, but then you also mentioned some of the password managers out there. Are there best practices for password management in general?

Zack Kromkowski (13:31): Yeah, so this one’s good. So two FA, I’ll say this on every single episode I go on. For any field password managers are critical. Save your passwords there, but let’s talk about getting into the password manager. This has to be the most unique password because you can’t put it in their password manager. You can’t, if you don’t know this password, you can’t sign into it to figure out what it is, right? So you need to know that password, and that is something you should treat like your social security number, whether you have it written down and put into a safe, or you just have it memorized, which memorizes, of course, the best practice. But making sure this has at least 20 different characters. And when I say characters, I’m referring to letters, numbers, and symbols. Those are the things that make a strong password. And because this is a password you use nowhere else, it’s a single password. This is actually not something I would recommend to rotate or change. This is just your forever password

John Jantsch (14:29): Until

Zack Kromkowski (14:30): Your safe gets broken into, until you get an alert saying possible password compromise. You never have to rotate this password. This is your single source of truth to get into your password manager. And yeah, on top of that, I’ll say it one more time. The two FA, every piece of software, everything that you have access to always go through and just see, Hey, in the setting section or the security and option section, do they have a two a option available? Do you want me to go a little bit deeper into why that’s important, John?

John Jantsch (15:01): No, but I do want to explain, not everybody knows the acronym two FA. So two factor authentication. So we’ve all got some, all the financial folks have gone to almost forcing that. So you log in and then it says, all right, we’re not sure this is you. We’re going to text you a code, or you need to use an authenticator or something. So basically it’s just a second hoop, if you will, to somebody could have your phone, they can have your password, so they could authenticate it, but it just adds an extra hoop for somebody that’s out there in some far away island that’s trying to hack into your stuff.

Zack Kromkowski (15:38): And I think that’s a great point, and I’m glad you called me out for that. I do my best to speak all of my acronyms. It’s alphabet soup in the security world. But

(15:48): This is a cool thing, and relating it again, back to the marketing departments and marketing teams and doing sales, right? If you were trying to sell ION or a security company, Hey, I want to do your marketing. I need all of this brand information, I need all of your value props, I need whatever, to build the perfect messaging. If one question I would probably ask, Hey, how are you storing this? Right? So marketing departments may want to take half a step into enabling their sales team to say, Hey, if it ever makes sense, feel free to let the prospect know, Hey, we secure our data this way. We have managed browsers, we do use two FA. If a marketing firm said that to me and leaned into MySpace as a security vendor, I’d be impressed. I’d be like, Hey, maybe they’re not experts, but they took that half a step to at least try to appeal to what I care about, and that would mean a lot to me.

John Jantsch (16:42): So here’s my other topic. I’m going to throw this one in here. This might just mix up the soup a little bit, but where do you stand on VPNs? So again, since we’re all over the world and all doing, we’re all logging into Google to do X, should we all be using virtual private networks that mask our ips?

Zack Kromkowski (17:01): Yeah, I mean, this again, goes towards that BYOD. If you are an enterprise who can only access certain things via the on-premise domain, you have to be connected. You have to be onsite in order to obtain certain information, you’re going to be inherently required to have A VPN. Now, the debate kind of comes in, okay, we can only access the data onsite. We have no one remote. Do we really need a VPN? In that case, you probably don’t. I mean, more is always better, but in that case, it’s probably overkill. If everyone is already working on site, the computers never leave the business, everything has to be done there. There’s not a lot of value because the data’s never leaving that secure built environment. Now, to your point, a lot of people are B-O-I-O-D. We’re all remote nowadays. So yeah, they really do become that backbone to say, if I don’t lock out some of that business data and require A VPN in order to reach it, anyone can reach it,

John Jantsch (18:08): Right?

Zack Kromkowski (18:09): So it’s going to depend on your business model, your business setup. But yeah, VPNs are critical for those remote environments. But if you are on site, probably not necessary.

John Jantsch (18:21): So you talked about if somebody was wanting to do your marketing, if I went to a company and they were asking, in fact, we’ve had this happen before where people have an IT company that they work with and they’re like, Hey, here’s our checklist of security standards. Do you meet them? So is there kind of a, I wouldn’t call it the gold standard, but maybe even a minimum standard that if I went to them and just said, oh yeah, we are BXYC compliant. Is there one sort of compliance level that say a small business should strive towards?

Zack Kromkowski (18:54): So there’s an easy answer that comes to mind here, and that’s going to be SOC two compliance, which is maybe what you’re leaning towards.

John Jantsch (19:00): And

Zack Kromkowski (19:00): It’s definitely one of the most common and most understood compliances to me. And it would mean something to me. It would definitely say, well, they at least did that. That means they care about it To some extent, the follow-up question. And if you do take the approach of getting a SOC two, which yes, that’s a good approach. ION has one, right? We’re doing all this, but be able to say, not only do we have one, this is what we got it for. So that’s the very unique thing with SOC two. I can get a SOC two on the ION website, but the ION solution itself has no security certification. So if you intend to take the approach of leading or injecting at some point during the sales conversation as a marketing firm, hey, we have our SOC two, be sure to be ready for that follow-up question and say, what’s your SOC two for?

John Jantsch (19:52): Because

Zack Kromkowski (19:52): That is something that we would ask if anyone ever said that to us.

John Jantsch (19:56): And I believe that’s SOC two, right? It is,

Zack Kromkowski (19:59): Yep. And I think it’s the Roman numerals two is usually how it’s, yep.

John Jantsch (20:03): Alright, if people want to look that up. We’re 18 minutes and 38 seconds into this recording. Let’s talk about ai. Oh boy. So does ai, where are the risks, I suppose, posed by AI that we need to at least be thinking about?

Zack Kromkowski (20:19): So risk especially in the relation to marketing and the business field that you cater to. John, you are a goldmine to a bad actor. Why? We talked about this a little bit at the start, but you have multiple companies, brand multiple companies, points of context, multiple companies, just image if an ai, if you were to be compromised, and I already heard you have your layers of security, so kudos to you on being able to talk towards that very good conversation. But let’s talk about if worst case scenario you were compromised that AI can now ingest hundreds of companies, unique branding, colors, branding, verbiage, branding, everything, and it takes that data and then can target the next business your customer. You have a similar risk profile to a managed service provider. So a managed service provider will typically manage the IT and security and has more access. So they can be a direct point of breach, they can take advantage of things, but you’re the next layer. You’re the layer still hugely valuable to an ai because that AI now is tailoring, its messaging, becoming you talking to that end client. And it’s going to be hard to tell the difference, John. I mean, that’s the end of the day. Our AI are becoming so trained and so tailored. If we inject it with the appropriate information, which marketing firms already have, how are your clients going to know the difference?

John Jantsch (21:51): I actually saw somebody post, and again, there are definitely a lot of people out there trying to lead with the fear factor, but some of it’s real. And they were suggesting that if you got a phone call from somebody and your boss, your spouse, and they were asking you for something that you thought was a little odd, but it sure sounded like them, that level of fake is going to be out there and that people were actually talking about having your own sort of password with each other.

Zack Kromkowski (22:22): I love the stories. So when we call partners and sometimes they don’t always have our number saved, and a lot of, I mean just you guys, we’re all in marketing here, right? We’ve done the cold calls, we’ve done the customer calls, and they may not recognize the number. Some security companies will take an edgier take to this and have a little AI recording or AI interface to almost annoy the person on the other line. They simply pretend to be a real person, but you’re actually talking to a computer the whole time, and that’s just one piece of ai. Now, you take that kind of a comedy scenario that satire like, oh, it was just used for goofy, but you actually allow it to now make outgoing calls, make those outgoing fakes. Having that key password phrase makes a difference. I think my biggest point here is, Hey, can you remind me what, so-and-so’s story was right? Doing something personal that an AI probably doesn’t know. And I’m going to be honest, I’ve had to do that. Hey, this conversation has been going for 45 seconds. I haven’t felt anything real out of it. I’m going to put a very personal question here to see how it responds, and sure enough, it couldn’t, it just went back to the replay loop.

John Jantsch (23:37): Yeah. Wow. So Zach, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. We obviously a wide range of topics. It probably just stirred up more questions than answers. Happy to come back, but you want to invite people where they might want to connect with you and maybe find out more about some of the things we talked about if they have some concerns.

Zack Kromkowski (23:58): Yeah. So my name again, Zach Kowski. I’m very active on LinkedIn. You can find that at security, Zach as the profile name. But the big thing I want to shout out here is you don’t need a security budget to do security activities. The things I talked about today is knowing what software you have, knowing what hardware you have, and then changing settings. If you’re overwhelmed and don’t know what these settings do, we have free documentation across YouTube and our resource hub to say, this setting does that. This setting does that. And you can take advantage of this a hundred percent free offering to do some of these steps without paying anything. Now, if you do want to do this at a mass scale, ion automates all of this. That’s the plug. But there’s a lot of free steps you can do without even investing a dollar.

John Jantsch (24:46): Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Picture This! Marketing in [just] three Elements

Picture This! Marketing in [just] three Elements written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode, I discuss my framework for creating a one-page marketing strategy called the Duct Tape Marketing Snapshot. The framework is divided into 3 core elements: brand strategy, growth strategy, and customer strategy. Within each component, I ADRE, such as mission, vision, values, ideal client definition, unique value proposition, marketing channels, lead capture, lead nurture, trust-building, lead conversion, customer onboarding, customer experience, customer retention, customer expansion, customer referrals, and partner referrals.

Key Takeaways

The Duct Tape Marketing Snapshot is a one-page framework for creating a marketing strategy.
The framework is divided into three core elements: brand strategy, growth strategy, and customer strategy.
Each element has several components that must be addressed to create a comprehensive marketing strategy.
The framework helps businesses simplify and organize their marketing strategy.

Chapters

[00:00] Introduction to the Duct Tape Marketing Snapshot
[02:24] The Three Core Elements of a Marketing Strategy
[03:15] Addressing the Key Components of Brand Strategy
[05:36] Building a Growth Strategy: From Awareness to Lead Conversion
[09:48] Mapping the Customer Journey in the Customer Strategy

This episode was brought to you by:

This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by:

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Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:16): What you just heard was a testimonial from a recent graduate of the Duct Tape Marketing certification intensive program for fractional CMOs marketing agencies and consultants just like them. You could choose our system to move from vendor to trusted advisor, attract only ideal clients, and confidently present your strategies to build monthly recurring revenue. Visit DTM world slash scale to book your free advisory call and learn more. It’s time to transform your approach. Book your call today, DTM world slash scale. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John janz and no guest today. I’m doing a solo show. I want to talk about something that I’ve been working on maybe for 15 years, but I finally got around to actually creating a framework that I would call as my version of taking marketing strategy and putting it onto one page.

(01:25): One page that really gives you the ability to capture all the essential elements of your marketing strategy. So certainly to use as an internal document, but I think it’s a great tool to also use as a creative brief or as a way to explain to somebody your business that you’re maybe trying to get to do some marketing work for you. Now, there’s a lot of research that goes into the various elements of this, but a lot of times we do marketing strategy and we spend days, months, weeks developing it, putting it into a document, and then that document goes into a drawer somewhere because it’s 40 pages or something. And so what I wanted to do was create something that could be something that you would come back and it would be the overview, if you will, that one-on-one page that you could share with people.

(02:12): You could print out, you could hang up, you could do lots of things with, I call it the Duct Tape Marketing Snapshot. And I want to go over the various elements in that. And I’ll also invite you, if you would like us to do this with you, go through an exercise with you. If you’d like to just see a copy of it, you can always reach me, reach out to me at john@ducttapemarketing.com and just put in the subject line marketing snapshot and I’ll send it out or we’ll discuss how this might apply to your business. But essentially what the snapshot does is it is broken up into, and those of you that are watching the video version of this in places like YouTube, we’ll see a graphic right now, which is the actual form itself that we created called the Marketing Snapshot. Those of you that I said will actually have it there if you want to go to the show notes as well, those of you that are just listening, otherwise, I will do my best to describe it as visually as possible.

(03:07): So essentially it’s broken up into three core elements, which are really the three core elements that I think a marketing strategy has to address. And that is your brand strategy, your growth strategy, and then your customer strategy. And this is really following the customer journey, if you will. It’s how people become aware of your brand. It’s certainly how you grow and turn them into customers and then what you do after they become customers. So it is a way for us to really address all the key areas and make sure that we’re not leaving something out. And I think that’s one of the things that’s the hardest about talking about marketing strategy to folks, is that it’s very confusing what it is. So I’ve tried to simplify it. I think marketers make marketing overly complex. So I’ve tried to simplify marketing strategy into those three buckets.

(03:53): Brand strategy, growth strategy and customer strategy. Alright. And then within those, there’s a total of 16 elements that we want to address. And these are things that they’re not going to be new to you necessarily, but I think that organizing them, I should say in this fashion, hopefully will give new light to how they apply to your business. So under the brand strategy, I mean we’re going to make considerations like mission, vision, values there. What’s the brand personality? I mean, how do you want to be perceived by your ideal clients by the market? What are some ways that you’re going to ensure consistency and messaging and visuals and customer interactions really across all the channels? Those are things that have to be part of your brand strategy, but clearly defining who your ideal client is. Certainly a component of it, and not just the demographics, but really what they believe, what they fear, the value that they’re looking for, how they like to buy, where they find their information.

(04:50): Those are all parts of that definition. I lean very heavily on this concept of core message. That is another key component of this idea and that is not the message that says who you are or what you do, but the message that clearly defines your unique value proposition, the promise to solve your ideal client’s greatest, greatest problem. That’s what we want to see in a core message. It is certainly useful to write down your mission, your why, really defining the underlying purpose of the values that are driving your business. I think that belongs in brand strategy certainly, and that belongs in something that any tool that you’re going to use to communicate your business and what it stands for. Certainly being able to share that publicly is great. And then the last piece I put in brand strategy is a consideration of what are the primary marketing channels that we are going to use to reach our ideal client?

(05:47): And I believe that this belongs in brand strategy because a lot of our reaching there is going to be just to create awareness, is going to be to build trust, and we want to make sure that we’re at least making a consideration about what are the most important channels for us to pursue and by comparison, what are the ones we should be leaving out of the mix? And I think that’s just having that consideration can be very helpful. Alright, now we move to the next category or the next big row or section in this, and that’s growth strategy. This is essentially how you plan to scale and grow your business. We’ve got the brand locked down. We know who we’re targeting. We know the message that we’re going to use to attract them and where we’re going to use that message. So now we need to say, okay, how do we create awareness for the brand?

(06:38): How do we attract new prospects? How do we get people to know about us? You’ll see in this tool that I heavily sprinkle in our concept of the customer journey called the marketing Hourglass. And its seven stages of know, like, trust, try, buy, repeat and refer. Awareness is all about quite often getting people to know you and consequently, hopefully to what you’re doing or what they see. And then ultimately to get them to trust you enough to want to go deep enough to find out if you can actually solve their specific problems and challenges. So after awareness plan, we have lead captures. So once somebody finds out about you and they start coming and visiting and maybe you’ve invited them through your social channels to work with you or to get some new, to get a checklist or to get an ebook or to get some content, then what’s your lead capture plan?

(07:30): How are we going to actually start capturing those leads so that we can continue to market to them or maybe a better way continue to build trust so that they want to go deeper. We have something on there called the brand love plan, and this is really just an admission that we need to intentionally think in how we’re going to foster a deep connection between our brand and our customers. I mean, what are some of the things that we can do to create advocates to create exceptional value, to create exceptional experiences? Having a thought about, wow, how are we going to wow people when they start to come in and surprise them and delight them? AI might be the most important new computer technology ever. It’s storming every industry and literally billions of dollars are being invested. So buckle up. The problem is that AI needs a lot of speed and processing power.

(08:22): So how do you compete without cost spiraling out of control? It’s time to upgrade to the next generation of the cloud. Oracle Cloud infrastructure or O-C-I-O-C-I is a single platform for your infrastructure, database, application development and AI needs. OCI has four to eight times the bandwidth of other clouds offers one consistent price instead of a variable regional pricing. And of course, nobody does data better than Oracle. So now you can train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half of the cost of other. If you want to do more and spend less like Uber eight by eight and Databricks Mosaic, take a free test drive@ociatoracle.com slash duct tape. That’s oracle.com/duct tape oracle.com/duct tape. A lot of companies do it, some do it without thought, but I guarantee you those great experiences that you’ve had with a lot of organizations, a great deal of that was intentional.

(09:21): So let’s consider that for ourselves. The lead nurture plan is the next element on here under brand love and that’s really what are we going to do to build trust and relationships really with the leads until they’re ready to buy. I mean, it is a journey. A lot of times people talk about how much marketing has changed and granted it’s changed a lot, but the thing that’s really changed the most is how people can buy now, how they choose the options they have available to them. And so a great deal of building trust enough to charge a premium to be seen as the obvious go-to is a lot about what you do in nurturing. Then we intentionally have, I think for a lot of businesses, trust is probably the most important element. It’s often not looked at as an intentional one, but what are we going to do to establish even the credibility and trust with an audience enough for somebody who is now looking at us deeply to say, okay, I’m going to exchange my money with you.

(10:20): And to me, the trust category to a lot of points, a lot of businesses that actually charge a premium that if you’ve ever paid more to get something because you trusted the result would be there, you trusted the brand was going to be there. Many of us have done that. Many of us have paid more and are willing to pay more when we trust that we will get the result from who we’re working with. So what are the ways that we’re going to build trust? Testimonials, case studies guarantees, transparent business practices, even who we associate with social proof. I mean, those are all things that are part of really the overarching marketing plan. That’s why they show up here on the snapshot. So the last two pieces in, or the last piece I should say in the growth plan is then your lead conversion plan.

(11:06): I mean, how are we going to convert those nurtured leads into paying customers? We need to have an actual process that can be taught that’s certainly aligned with what the customer needs, but then also aligns with the core message that we’re communicating that creates the buying experience itself is often where referrals and repeat business happen because even if we get a result for somebody, but the experience of getting there was not that great, we’re going to lose a lot of trust. And so what is our lead conversion plan that not only results in us converting a higher number of leads, but it’s also something we can scale, that we can start teaching to others. I think that’s where a lot of businesses really struggle is when the founder has been really good at selling and they end up being trapped because they’re the only ones who can sell because they’re really not even sure how they do it or why they do it and why they’re so successful at it.

(12:01): So when it comes time to hiring a sales team, they really flounder because there is no real process. So great to have at least a process. It doesn’t have to be the most perfect one. You’re always going to be refining it, trying to make it better. But if you don’t start with at least here is our process or our plan for lead conversion, you’re going to struggle. Alright, now we’re going to go to the third stage, which is the customer strategy. So this is where we’re going to map out the journey of everything that’s going to happen or that we hope happen once somebody becomes a customer. So we’re going to start with new customer onboarding plan. What’s the way that we’re going to create the most positive first experience for a new customer? So these are onboarding orientation. It’s amazing how often people don’t give this some thought and every new customer is brought in, has different expectations, a different experience, and it really dilutes the brand.

(12:59): So we’re going to map out what’s going to happen when somebody says yes when they become a new customer. It’s obviously going to be different for every business, but having a plan allows you to again, delegate and scale because everybody learns the plan and how to deliver the same experience, but it also really creates consistency in working with your business. And I think that a lot of times customers really crave that consistency and that’s part of the experience. Knowing what to expect and having it delivered as promised is really a great part of the experience. Speaking of experience, that’s the next one. What is going to be our overarching customer experience plan? So how are we going to ensure a consistently positive experience throughout the journey? So really mapping out everything we want to do. But this is also the place where getting feedback from existing customers to look for ways to continuously approve, having SOPs as part of the experience.

(13:56): We talked about the new customer, but certainly the ongoing fulfillment as well. The next two components of really are kind of the repeat bucket and that is your customer retention plan. What are we going to do to keep customers engaged, keep them coming back, retain them, sell them more. Maybe sell them other products, maybe sell them on another tier or layer of products and services. So really having tactics in place that are going to focus on, certainly measure, but focus on customer retention and things like loyalty programs and check-ins and just ongoing continuing education. That should be part of your plan. Don’t just wait for customers to call you and say, I need something. You should have a way that keeps you top of mind, keeps them coming back, keeps you in front of them in a way that allows you to introduce how you discover frankly, and then introduce how you can do more with them.

(14:51): And then what’s your customer expansion plan? How can you take your existing customers and increase the lifetime value, increase what you’re doing for them? One of the things I’ve discovered over the years is that about 20% of my customers would, and I’m not saying I’ve nailed this, about 20% of my customers would do five, 10 times the business they’re currently doing with me. If I intentionally take the time to discover what else they need, discover how else I can add value, discover how else I can solve more problems, bigger problems for them, there won’t be your entire customer base, but we all know that it is much easier to do more business with somebody you’ve already established trust with than it is to really jump or make people jump through all the hoops to become a new customer. Alright, the last two elements, your customer referral plan.

(15:45): I wrote an entire book called the referral Engine on this topic. It’s one that I’m very passionate about turning satisfied customers into brand advocates. You essentially through a referral are borrowing trust. How many times you’ve done this yourself? Somebody you said, boy, I need to find somebody to do X. Somebody says, Hey, don’t look any further. They solved this problem for me, or here’s how they did it. They’re awesome. The end of the sales journey, we stop. We call ’em up and say, when can you start? So that borrowed trust, that removal of risk is what makes referrals such a potent, we all know this, right? You all know it is such a potent channel. So having a plan to intentionally generate referrals from customers is how you really amplify your referability. You’re not going to get referrals unless you deserve them, but certainly once you deserve them, you have to really amplify that.

(16:41): And then the last piece of this is, it’s another element of referrals, but what I call the partner referral plan. So these are strategic partners. These are non-competing businesses that also serve your ideal client, that you could actually add value to their client base, add value to their business, to their offerings by working together in some fashion. That really gives them an incentive to put you in front of their audience. The right customer might have two or three referrals that they could give you, which is awesome, but the right strategic partner might actually fill your pipeline because they’ve got hundreds of potential folks that they could put you in front of. All right, so that’s it. That is the marketing snapshot. You can find it in the show notes. Or if you want to just reach out to me at john@ducttapemarketing.com, I’m happy to talk to you about how we could do that for your business as part of the strategy first process.

(17:38): Or if you just want to see a copy of the Marketing snapshot yourself, we’re happy to make it available to you in one way, shape, or form or another. So that’s it. Thanks for tuning in today. We love those reviews. If you give ’em it to Spotify or Apple or Google or wherever it is you get your podcasts, I’d love to hear from you. So if you just want to say hi, it’s also just John at Duct Tape Marketing. All right, take care, and hopefully we’ll see you one of these days soon out there on the road.

Master the Family Business Dynamic: Proven Strategies for Growth and Harmony

Master the Family Business Dynamic: Proven Strategies for Growth and Harmony written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Michael Mirau

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Michael Mirau, a seasoned business coach and consultant specializing in family business coaching and business growth for middle-market companies and nonprofits. Mike shared insights from his newly released book, The Family Business Manifesto: A Roadmap to Peace in the Family and Prosperity in the Business.

During this conversation, Michael dives deep into the critical challenges that family businesses face, such as balancing personal relationships with professional responsibilities. He offers actionable strategies to ensure leadership transitions are smooth and provide a roadmap for long-term business growth.

Key Takeaways

Family dynamics add complexity to business operations, requiring clear boundaries between personal and professional roles.
Leadership transitions in family businesses need careful planning to avoid resentment and conflict.
Successful family businesses set clear expectations and treat family members equally to foster respect and accountability.
Healthy relationships are crucial for long-term success and business growth in family-owned enterprises.
Mike’s strategies focus on creating sustainable systems that promote both family harmony and business prosperity.

Chapters

[00:00] Who is Michael Mirau and what are Family Business Dynamics
[02:59] Challenges Unique to Family Businesses
[05:57] The Importance of Healthy Relationships especially for family business
[09:00] Navigating Leadership Transitions
[ 12:01 ] Example of How to Compete as a Service Business
[14:30] Intentional Succession Planning
[18:50] How to connect with Moreau and resources for family businesses

More About Michael Mirau:

Add Michael Mirau on LinkedIn and X
Check out Michael Mirau’s Website
Grab a copy of his book, The Family Business Manifesto: A Roadmap to Peace in the Family and Prosperity in the Business.

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by:

Try ActiveCampaign free for 14 days with our special offer. Exclusive to new customers—upgrade and grow your business with ActiveCampaign today!

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.128)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Mike Mirau. He is a business coach and consultant specializing in middle market companies and nonprofits. Through his proactive strategic excellence process, he has helped organizations become healthy, scalable, and focused on growth. Today we’re going to talk about Mike’s new book, The Family Business Manifesto, A Roadmap to Peace.

in the family and prosperity in the business. It’s just been released and you’re going to be able to get it wherever you buy your books. So Mike, welcome to the show.

Michael Mirau (00:36.13)

Great, thank you John, it’s pleasure to be here.

John Jantsch (00:38.888)

So are there a category of differences between a family business and, I don’t know, let’s call it a regular business? I mean, are there certain things that are inherently different about a family business?

Michael Mirau (00:50.68)

There are actually, and what’s really interesting is when we started our research, we actually started researching for this book about four years ago. And through a series of interviews with family business owners, we identified some very clear differences between a normal business and a family business. And, you know, some of them are kind of, yeah, right. Duh. Yeah. They’re, definitely different, but the, the,

dynamics of a business dramatically change when you have family involved. And so what we found when we did the research was that they, they experienced the same challenges that a normal business has. Like, how do we grow? How do we be more efficient? How do we be more effective? How do we hire and retain top tier talent? All of those, all those issues are the same, but when you add a family member,

You add a relationship dynamic. I mean, literally John, I just got an email from a client whose husband is a husband and wife that working in this company and the husband just resigned because he and the wife could work together. That’s it. That’s it. And, it’s so, it’s so interesting. And he was a key member of the leadership team.

John Jantsch (02:05.972)

I’m either going to resign or we’re going to get a divorce, right?

Michael Mirau (02:17.132)

You know, he carried a lot of the administrative responsibility of the organization and you know, we’re sitting here trying to schedule our next meeting and he doesn’t want to participate. And I’m like, okay, he declined the meeting. And then I get the email saying he’s resigned from the leadership team. And I’m like, my gosh, what’s going on over there? So that’s an example of the kind of stuff that you encounter when you have the family dynamic. You said it well, do we work together or do we get a divorce?

You know, so sometimes people in families, the, the, the relationship carries into the business and it has an impact and you’re, you’ve got a family business. You, know, exactly what I’m talking about.

John Jantsch (02:59.806)

Yeah. I do. I do. do. don’t think I started it as such. You know, a lot of people really do. mean, my, my daughter essentially runs our company, but, you know, it was a surprise to me, that she even had any interest. You know, I didn’t, I didn’t kind of lay awake thinking, you know, my legacy is through, you know, another generation. but I absolutely love having her in the business.

Michael Mirau (03:17.281)

Right.

Michael Mirau (03:25.494)

Yeah. Well, I own a small printing company, that is a specialty printing company has a very distinct niche. And we talk a little bit about this in the book, my daughter and son -in -law run that company. Okay. I am very much on the peripheral. help when I, when I need to, but it’s their business, so to speak, but yet I’m still actively involved. And, and so.

John Jantsch (03:44.691)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:48.116)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Mirau (03:53.506)

There are certain things you can talk about with family and you don’t talk about with family. And what’s really funny is when we get together with my daughter and son -in -law, the very first thing my wife says is don’t talk business. You know, let’s, let’s talk about family stuff, not business stuff. And that’s the challenge that you run into is, is everything kind of the whole universe kind of evolves around the business. And that’s one of the challenges that we found in our research is, is.

John Jantsch (04:06.184)

Yeah, right, right, right, right, yeah.

John Jantsch (04:12.104)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:21.618)

Yeah, there’s no off.

Michael Mirau (04:22.802)

It’s hard to turn the business off and deal with the family stuff. So it’s really interesting, the dynamics and there’s all kinds of stories in the book about situations that don’t go well and situations that do go well. So it’s not a doom, doom book. You know, if you’ve got a family business, you’re, you’re in trouble. It’s actually, it should give people confidence that if you can figure out how to navigate some of those dynamics.

John Jantsch (04:25.384)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:37.736)

Mm -hmm.

John Jantsch (04:42.844)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Michael Mirau (04:52.78)

You can have the peace and the family that we talk about.

John Jantsch (04:55.762)

Yeah. I wonder how important, and I suppose every relationship’s different, but I wonder how important, know, people that, that, you know, sometimes people don’t have the healthiest relationships, as a family. but yet, you know, it’s like, no, you’re going to work here and whether you want to or not, you know, maybe in some cases. So I wonder how important it is. Like, like my daughter and I have a great relationship outside or at least I like to think so outside of the business. and so I feel like we work together.

Well, inside the business, but do you think that that’s crucial?

Michael Mirau (05:29.1)

I think it is. and, you know, it all comes down to trust and how much we ascribe motive to what people do. And what’s really interesting family, just family dynamics. I tell people this all the time. If you looked up the term dysfunctional, you could put my family tree and my wife’s family tree right there. And you would see dysfunction all the way through on both sides.

John Jantsch (05:30.707)

Yes.

Michael Mirau (05:57.73)

And, and so we’ve had to deal with that. You know, both of our parents divorced, some of our siblings have divorced and we’ve seen the dynamics and the impact of that on the kids, on the extended family and things like that. And when you bring in dysfunction that already exists in a family, gets multiplied in the business. It’s almost like it’s shines a spotlight on it and says,

John Jantsch (06:24.264)

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Mirau (06:27.704)

Let’s blow this up. And it plays out in behavior. You see that. so it all comes back to the relationship. I think you said it right. And what are we doing to nurture and develop that relationship? And we try to put some, in the book, we try to put some boundaries around that and say, you know, one of the very first keys, we talk about five keys to having a successful family business. Key number one is you check the relationship at the door.

John Jantsch (06:29.448)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:58.152)

Right. Right. Right.

Michael Mirau (06:58.186)

Okay. When we’re at work, it’s not father daughter. It’s not father son or husband wife. It’s who’s in charge and who’s doing what. Okay. You do your job. I’ll do my job. And if I’m the boss, if I’m in charge, then you have to respect me as the boss. Okay. And you know, having a daughter, I don’t know about your daughter, but my daughter went through this period of time where

John Jantsch (07:08.68)

Right. Yeah.

Michael Mirau (07:26.028)

You know, dad was just an old guy, didn’t know anything. And then, then all of a sudden she realized, Hey, I’m maybe do know a little bit about some things. And she was more open to some of the conversations we were having, but every once in a while that, kind of rebellious daughter kicks in, dad, that won’t work here. We can’t do that. Well, we, rarely ever have to play the authority card, but sometimes you have to.

John Jantsch (07:51.218)

Yeah. It’s interesting you say that because I mean, I think probably one of the mistakes people make is that they don’t do your best practices that you do in any kind of business. Right. mean, just like you said, leadership is leadership and you know, delegation is delegation and reporting and accountability are, you know, parts, right. And, and to actually just say, no, I know them, I trust them. They’ll get the work done, but everybody else is held to, you know, a report card. So, so really that’s probably one of the big mistakes, isn’t

Michael Mirau (08:01.175)

Yeah.

Michael Mirau (08:10.051)

Yeah.

Michael Mirau (08:14.958)

Sure.

Michael Mirau (08:20.888)

Assumptions are one of the biggest challenges that we find is that, I just assumed they would come in and work hard for the family business. Yeah. Good luck. Good luck with that. we, mean, there, and there’s some stories in there about, and you know, the thing is, especially when you’re a parent and your, your child, comes into the business, you know, we love our kids and there’s nothing we wouldn’t do for our children.

John Jantsch (08:28.404)

Right,

Michael Mirau (08:50.344)

And, sometimes when we play parent at work, we let them get away with stuff that other employees would not get away with. that’s, but I guarantee you, and it just, we talk about this in the book, you know, the, the, the five keys are check the relationship of the door, have clear roles and responsibilities. Third one is treat everyone the same.

John Jantsch (09:00.44)

But they’re seeing, but they’re watching.

Michael Mirau (09:17.762)

You can’t have them coming in late and leaving early and skipping days work. Everybody else thinks, I can do that too. And they lose respect for the family member and that, that causes it. does, it does has a huge impact on the culture.

John Jantsch (09:25.374)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (09:29.904)

And kind of destroys the culture too, doesn’t it? Yeah. What about transitioning to leadership? I know that that’s, know, lot of times a family member will come in and, they’ll come in as the intern maybe even, as, as, you know, whatever role, but you know, probably there’s some hope that they’re going to rise up and learn to business and want to stay. is there, you know, I think for a lot of leaders actually transitioning out of the leadership, you know, is hard.

Michael Mirau (09:57.368)

John Jantsch (09:57.524)

Is it harder in a family business or are there certain things that you need to do to really make that a smoother transition?

Michael Mirau (10:05.432)

Yeah, first of all, starts with, they have a desire to do that? We can’t say, boy, it’d be good for you to take this over. Honestly, that’s where we’ve seen the success in the research was those families where the kids saw their future as part of the business as opposed to feeling like they have to work in the family business. Now I grew up in a family business.

John Jantsch (10:09.138)

Right, right, right, right, right.

John Jantsch (10:29.864)

Mm -hmm.

Michael Mirau (10:31.982)

Okay. My father, we ran a service station in farmersville, Texas. And so at the age of 12, dad said, get up, you’re going to work.

John Jantsch (10:40.724)

I’m envisioning the two pump station on the corner of a dusty dirt road, right?

Michael Mirau (10:46.254)

Texaco. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was a highway, but, it was, it was plenty dusty, no doubt. And, and it was, we had, we were a full service gas station. So we pumped gas, cleaned the windows, checked the oil, aired up the tires. mean, we did everything and it was really funny. One of the great lessons I learned from my father was number one, the work ethic. Okay. I got to watch how he worked.

And, and he was a brilliant man. mean, he could create anything out of, mean, he was MacGyver before MacGyver existed. I mean, he could come up with ways to do things, create tools, things along those lines, but it was really interesting. I saw one of the key lessons I learned from my dad was how to compete with other, other folks. was a Texaco station about three miles up the road from where we were.

And this was a time when full service stations were converting to self -service gas. Okay. And it hasn’t always been self -service. You know, the, the, generations, they’re, they’re not used to somebody coming out and pumping their gas and Oregon, Oregon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:01.672)

think there’s still a couple of states that do that though. it’s, yeah, Oregon and I want to say New Jersey maybe even that it’s actually mandatory. Yeah.

Michael Mirau (12:09.324)

Yeah, I got in trouble in Oregon at the airport because I was pumping my own gas and got come out. What are you doing? I’m putting gas in the car. But what happened was this station up the road decided to go self -service. My dad said, you know what? We’re going to lower our gas price to equal theirs, but we’re going to still deliver full service. We got all the gas business and all the mechanic business because of that. See, he figured out a way for us.

because we didn’t make money on gas. Gas is low margin, but where we made money was in putting tires and fixing flats and front end alignments and brake jobs and all that. And we got all of that because they were buying gas from us. And so it was really an interesting lesson of how can you position yourself and deliver more value so that you can beat the competition. That was one of the lessons I learned. And that’s one of the great things about

John Jantsch (12:40.147)

Yeah, the

John Jantsch (12:45.961)

John Jantsch (12:51.07)

Yeah.

Michael Mirau (13:07.395)

family members coming into the business is there’s no better way to learn how a business functions than from somebody who’s been doing it their whole life, who are the, as Michael Gerber calls in the E -myth, great technicians. Okay. And, and so they can have an opportunity to come in, but they got to want to do it. I mean, there was a HVAC company that I worked with where the dad and mom basically worked in the business.

John Jantsch (13:18.643)

Thanks

John Jantsch (13:22.121)

Right.

Michael Mirau (13:35.842)

They had eight technicians and one of the conversations we were having was about succession. He wanted to retire and we’re like, okay, were you, you plan to sell the business? What do you, what, what are you going to do? And he says, well, I want my son to take it over. I said, does your son want to take it over? The son was a baseball coach. He was a baseball coach at a high school, very successful.

And they called him one day and says, we want you to stop being a baseball coach and come work for the business. You know, and of course, being a faithful son, great relationship with his father. He fully trusted that his father had his best interests in heart. This guy knew nothing about the air conditioning business. And so bring brought him in, put him in charge of the cruise. Well, immediately the crew didn’t respect it because he didn’t know anything.

John Jantsch (14:26.964)

Yes. Right.

Michael Mirau (14:28.298)

And, and he was, he was set up to fail from day one. And honestly, his heart was never in it. He never felt like this is what he wanted to do. And so what eventually happened and it’s, it’s kind of a tragic story within about a year after that happening, dad dropped dead of a heart attack. Just fell over dead one day. And so mom called me and says, I don’t know what to do. I said, well, is, is Joe going to.

John Jantsch (14:47.7)

Mmm.

Mm.

Michael Mirau (14:57.25)

going to stay with the business. She goes, he hates this business. And so we talked through our options. Eventually they made the decision to sell the business. And so even though, the, the father’s desire was for the son to take it over and perpetuate and turn it into, and it was a very profitable, very lucrative business. They were doing very well, but the son just didn’t have the desire. And so you’ve got to get their buy -in to going that route.

John Jantsch (15:00.861)

Mm.

John Jantsch (15:21.694)

Yeah.

Michael Mirau (15:25.196)

That’s the beginning. Cause if they, have this, this, feeling of, I don’t have a choice or, I’m made to do this. There’s always some hidden dissension in their, in their process. And that plays out into behavior.

John Jantsch (15:42.59)

You know, one of the things, you know, sadly still in this country at least, you know, business leadership is male dominated. However, family business is a tremendous opportunity, I think in many cases, or at least a unique opportunity for a woman to really, you know, easily move into a leadership role. Yeah.

Michael Mirau (16:01.262)

Totally agree. Totally agree. And that’s one of the plus sides we talk about in the book is that, that a family business is one of the greatest ways to accumulate and perpetuate wealth in a family, whether it’s sons or daughters. Some of the most successful family businesses I’ve been a part of have women leaders where the women are the, the, the CEOs and, and they have, and this one, I was just talking to you about.

The wife is the CEO. Okay. The husband was the C O O and, so that creates some unique dynamics when, know, in the home, the husband is typically recognized as the head of the house, but at work, the wife is the head of the business. And, and so you’ve got some, some natural conflict there, but the, the perpetuating the business that the kids got to want to do it.

And, you know, we, we, we share this example in the book for the, 15 years of my corporate career. worked for a family business, very large, multi -billion dollar corporation. And it, you know, and then because there’s really a big family business, you know, like seven of the top 20 fortune 500 companies are family businesses. Walmart exactly. Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:19.38)

the

John Jantsch (17:24.884)

Yeah, Walmart, BMW, BMW, mean family businesses.

Michael Mirau (17:29.41)

Yeah. Walmart, the richest, some of the richest people in the world are the family of the Walmart kids. Okay. And so the, but what, happened at, at, it was interstate batteries and what norm did, and I thought this was brilliant. His son wanted to be in the business, but he really didn’t have that, that background. Okay.

John Jantsch (17:34.824)

Yes, yes, yes.

Michael Mirau (17:56.226)

So he wasn’t ready to step in and take over. That would have been a disaster if that had happened when he first came into the business. So what Norm did was he asked Scott to work in every department in the business for a period of time. He actually worked, I was in the IT department and he worked in our group for a while and then he went to marketing and then he went to accounting. This guy probably had a better knowledge of all the inner workings of the organization, but it was by design.

It wasn’t accidental. was to get Scott ready to take over. And he did. And what happened was when, when Norm stepped out and became chairman, and they had had a, a CEO in between, that helped grow the company and had done good stuff, but the guy had had kind of damaged some relationships, with the distributor base.

John Jantsch (18:49.961)

Mm.

Michael Mirau (18:50.638)

Eventually, no one felt like he needed to make a change in order to, get those relationships back. So Scott comes in, rebuilds those relationships and they have the greatest period of success in the history of the company. And Scott did an amazing job for 10 years as the CEO. And just recently, like in the last couple of years, Scott has stepped down and they’ve got a new CEO. That’s not a family member, but it’s really interesting when I went to work for them.

The first day I was there everybody in the office asked me, are you related to? I’m not related to anybody. Well, how’d you get the job? It’s like everybody in the company was related to somebody. But it’s a great example of how that succession worked out and it’s being intentional about it.

John Jantsch (19:25.15)

You

John Jantsch (19:29.486)

That’s right.

John Jantsch (19:38.878)

Well, Mike, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where can people find out more about your work and the family business manifesto?

Michael Mirau (19:49.038)

Well, it’s available on Amazon. and I’ll, I’ll be happy to send you the link to that. The, and right now we’ve got the, the, Kindle version is available for like 99 cents. So this is a good time to, to, get a copy. The, the other thing is, we’re, starting a, a new coaching program and it’s called family CEOs. And they could go to family CEOs .com.

John Jantsch (19:54.932)

Mm -hmm.

John Jantsch (20:02.164)

Okay. Yeah.

Michael Mirau (20:16.546)

and find out about what we’re doing there. And there’s also a link there to the book and, and that’s where they can get in touch with me if they have some questions or, or want to talk about their business.

John Jantsch (20:28.709)

Well, again, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by. Hopefully we’ll run into you soon one of these days out there on the road,

Michael Mirau (20:34.592)

you bet john it’s pleasure man

The Senior Living Marketing Boom and How to Get Smart(er) with Your Strategy

The Senior Living Marketing Boom and How to Get Smart(er) with Your Strategy written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Debbie Howard

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Debbie Howard. Howard is the co-founder and CEO of Senior Living SMART, a full-service marketing agency serving the senior housing industry. She and her partner, Andréa Catizone, have successfully grown the agency from a startup to a team of 40 employees over the past 12 years and recently celebrated by publishing her book Smarter(er) Marketing for Senior Living Communities.

During our conversation, we explored the essential strategies that senior living communities need to thrive in an increasingly competitive market. We discussed the importance of using smart marketing automation, effective strategies for attracting the right prospects, and why your website is the most important asset for lead conversion.

Whether you’re involved in senior living marketing or looking to optimize your overall strategy with quality automation and a robust online presence, this episode is packed with actionable insights.

Key Takeaways

The senior living industry is booming: With the aging population driving demand, senior living marketers must differentiate themselves from the crowded market. A strategic approach that combines automation, personalization, and a strong online presence is key to standing out and capitalizing on this growth.
Debbie’s SMART Marketing framework: Strategy, Marketing Automation, Analytics, Resources, and Technology.
Strategy is the foundation of successful senior living marketing – Understanding the specific needs of your audience is critical to crafting messages that attract ideal prospects. In senior living, that means targeting not just potential residents but their families too.
Marketing automation enhances efficiency – By automating processes like lead nurturing, senior living marketers can save time while providing personalized experiences. This allows sales teams to focus on higher-intent prospects.
Your website is your most important marketing asset – With 90% of potential residents and their families visiting websites during their decision-making process, having a mobile-first, user-friendly site is crucial for lead generation and conversions.
Not all leads are created equal – Senior living marketing needs to focus on generating the right leads. Automation helps qualify leads over time, ensuring that sales teams engage only with prospects ready to move forward.

Chapters

[00:00] Introduction to Senior Living Marketing
[02:42] Understanding the SMART Marketing Framework
[05:16] The Role of Strategy in Senior Living Marketing
[08:35] Differentiation in a Competitive Market
[12:49] Aligning Marketing and Sales Strategies
[16:59] The Critical Role of Websites in Sales
[19:56] Introducing Smarter Marketing Certification

More About Debbie Howard:

Add Debbie Howard on LinkedIn
Check out Debbie Howard’s Website
Grab a copy of her book, Smarter(er) Marketing for Senior Living Communities

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by:

Nobody does data better than Oracle. Train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half of the cost of other clouds. If you want to do more and spend less, take a free test drive at Oracle.

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.01)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jance. My guest today is Debbie Howard. She is the co -founder and CEO of Senior Living Smart, a full -service marketing agency serving the seniors housing industry. She and her partner, Andre Catazon, have grown the agency from startup to 40 employees and are celebrating their 12th anniversary by publishing the first book that we’re going to talk about today, Smart Err, that errs in parentheses.

Debbie Howard (00:26.058)

you

John Jantsch (00:30.384)

Marketing for senior living communities, how to work smarter, not harder. Debbie’s also, by the way, a member of the Duct Tape Marketing Consultant Network. So we’ve known each other a long time. Welcome to the show, Deb.

Debbie Howard (00:42.912)

Thanks, John. Great to be on and be chatting with you today.

John Jantsch (00:46.694)

So there have been, over the years, a number of folks in the network have published books. Actually, there’s another one that I’m interviewing tomorrow that has book also coming out. What would you say, I mean, goals, or I should say books are a great tool for a lot of reasons. What would you say are your goals for publishing a book?

Debbie Howard (01:08.096)

Yeah, I would say number one, it’s because there’s been such a pivot in the really in the prospect, if you will, for senior living. we just the industry in general is just really hitting that leading age of boomers coming in. And there’s just a recognition that, you know, the way that our industry has marketed in the past is not going to be effective and is not going to work moving forward with this new generation of buyers that has very different expectations.

John Jantsch (01:19.42)

Mm.

Debbie Howard (01:36.066)

So really wanting to get ahead of that. We can only serve a certain number of clients in the senior living industry. There’s more need than there’s our ability to really serve them from a partnership level. So it gives us a greater reach to help more people. frankly, not everybody can afford a full service marketing agency of record. And so we hope it kind of levels the playing field. Maybe serve.

for some folks that are doing marketing on their own or using a marketing agency that doesn’t have senior living expertise. And then I think just selfishly, I do think that a book is also great for being able to get those keynote speakers and get on the conference stage and we’ll be developing a course as well with the option to either do it as just self -paced learning or really to do it from a certification standpoint with submitting to our

John Jantsch (02:10.599)

Yes.

Peace.

John Jantsch (02:18.46)

Mm -hmm.

Debbie Howard (02:33.61)

team of experts as they work through the course in order to kind of pass to that next level and achieve an actual certification.

John Jantsch (02:42.074)

You have, as the book…

denotes smart or marketing. have a smart, maybe your business as well, living smart, smart marketing framework. Is there a way to kind of break that quickly down what that is?

Debbie Howard (02:59.136)

Yeah, I think so. So SMART is an acronym. We’ve used it in our business since day one, but as it applies to the book, the S is strategy, the is marketing automation, the A is for analytics, R is for resources. That really encompasses content. And then the T is for technology. And in this case, it’s really more about that more tech stack and getting the right technology and then getting everything connected.

John Jantsch (03:14.14)

Hmm.

John Jantsch (03:24.779)

Right. So let’s start with strategy. One of my favorite topics, the S word, as you’ve called it. Why is that the, mean, this is a stupid question for me to be asking you because you and I have had lot of conversations about that. But for those out there listening, why do you, why do you call strategy the foundation of all effective?

Debbie Howard (03:49.794)

mean, especially for our industry, I think people have to focus on the strategy to attract their right and ideal prospect. You know, I think the industry is really fortunate that we don’t have to create any demand for ourselves. There is plenty of demand that’s created just by an aging population, right? We’re not out there having to, you know, really create that. But what we do have to create is a way to attract the right residents for each of our brands.

John Jantsch (04:04.594)

Hmm. Right.

Debbie Howard (04:19.008)

And I think in general, in the past, we’ve been able to just be better than a nursing home. And that was OK. The next generation of buyers wants a lot more than that. And so we really just can’t serve up the same messaging to attract the kind of prospect that’s going to be ideal in this next generation. So super easy to turn on lead generation.

John Jantsch (04:26.044)

Mm. Yeah.

Debbie Howard (04:46.722)

just open up the floodgates and you can just be inundated with leads. We have clients that have over 200 leads a month. They can’t possibly work the number of leads that they have, but it’s really about getting the right leads that are going to be right for your brand, that are going to engage, that are going to advance and turn into residents. And that’s really the part of the strategy that I think the industry has been lacking because everyone’s pretty much serving up vanilla ice cream with different color sprinkles.

John Jantsch (04:56.018)

Hmm.

John Jantsch (05:00.347)

Right.

John Jantsch (05:16.535)

Well, and not to mention, because you talked about demand, demand is actually growing, right? That demographic is growing, you know, at least for the immediate period of time. And so a lot of competition has jumped into it, right? A lot of people saw dollars and, you know, private equity as, you know, playing a big role in it now. So a big part of strategy, I’m guessing for you is helping people differentiate, you know, because there are now so many players in every market.

Debbie Howard (05:45.12)

Yeah, there are a lot of people coming in because they’re looking at the demographics and the age wave and saying, I want to get in on this, but they have no experience in the industry. you know, it’s very difficult industry to actually operate in. So a lot of it is helping people to find, you know, their brand voice and their differentiator. What’s your better and different story? You always talk about not just listing your services and amenities, but really what is the problem that you’re solving?

John Jantsch (05:51.964)

Right.

Debbie Howard (06:13.534)

And not everybody is right for every operator. Some people really want a small, cozy environment that’s more home -like. Some people want the chandeliers and the brand new communities that have all the bright and shiny technologies. And so it’s really about drilling down to understand what’s the story that you have that nobody else has out there. Because everyone has the dining and the transportation and the care, and everyone says it’s the best.

John Jantsch (06:23.922)

Debbie Howard (06:40.634)

But at the end of the day, they don’t have your story, your residence, your culture, your mission, your values. And so that’s what we really focus on to attract more people who look like the same people who chose that brand historically. So we do a lot with, you know, persona interviews and focus groups and all of that to really get to their special sauce.

John Jantsch (07:02.896)

understand what they do that’s unique. There’s a great listeners are probably getting tired of me using this quote because I use it all the time. But you know, when it comes to that kind of brand and differentiation, there’s a Dolly Parton quote that she said, just discover who you are and go be it. And I think that that’s a lot of there’s a lot of truth in that. mean, everybody has a brand. It’s just whether or not it’s intentionally communicated or developed. It’s you it you know, you

You can’t say, you know, we want to be this or be that. You are that, right?

Debbie Howard (07:36.93)

And as being okay with being that, right? So if you are a 25 year old building, you’re experienced, right? You’ve been serving the neighbors for decades. You probably have larger apartments, because guess what? 25 years ago, they built bigger apartments and suites, right? You probably have the A market, because now all the A locations are taken. So the new construction has to come in on a busy road or in a more industrial area, because they don’t have that.

John Jantsch (07:39.258)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (07:47.514)

Right.

Debbie Howard (08:06.178)

If you’re new, you’re only going to be new for a short period of time. So, you know, use that. But I do think that there’s always that resistance of having marketing help us pretend to be something that we’re not. And that’s, think, for brands, really, they just get in trouble. know, people who say to me, know, Deb, we want, we want the younger, older people in here, the people that are 50. We want you. I had a client who said, you know, I was relating that I had

John Jantsch (08:19.546)

Right, right, right, right.

John Jantsch (08:31.527)

Yeah.

Debbie Howard (08:35.648)

gone through this experience with my mother and finding a community. And they said, well, you know, no disrespect, but we don’t want your mother. We want you. And I was like, okay, so if you want me, I work full time. You know, do you have, you know, a workspace for me? You do you have a shared office space? Do you have a conference room? You know, I like to do pottery. Do you have a craft studio? Can I, do you have a kiln? Like, do I like play pickleball? Do you have any, you know, pickleball courts? And they’re like, no, we don’t have any of those things. I’m like, well, then how do you think you’re going to get me?

John Jantsch (09:05.07)

Yeah. Right. Right. Right. So the next two letters were marketing automation. it’s kind of a double edged sword or can be certainly, for, for folks because we can use it as a way to, not have to actually talk to anybody, for example. So how do you balance the fact that I’m guessing, the buyer in your particular case really wants to talk to something. They want to know who’s going to be, you know, helping mom, right? so how do you balance kind of that marketing automation with the need for so much human interaction?

in this type of environment.

Debbie Howard (09:37.858)

Yeah, great question. Because I think especially this leading edge of the boomers, they want to remain anonymous and autonomous for as long as possible. So it’s really up to marketing. think marketing gets the sale 70 % closed. They expect a lot of transparency. They want to go download guides and ebooks, and they want to watch videos and virtual tours. And it’s a very long journey. it’s

John Jantsch (09:46.247)

Right.

Debbie Howard (10:02.402)

you know, depending on which level of care, if it’s active adult and independent living, it’s over a year. If it’s assisted living, you know, it can be more than six months, 22 to 28 touch points along that journey. And the sales team cannot possibly do 22 to 28 touch points for every single prospect that they have in their pipeline. So we look at marketing automation as being a compliment and nurturing the not yet sales ready leads, those marketing qualified leads.

John Jantsch (10:14.034)

Mm.

Debbie Howard (10:32.018)

They’re not opting in to schedule a tour or clicking to call. But if we let them download a brochure or a funding guide, a family decision toolkit, they will opt in and then we nurture them. And there should really be no dead ends to the prospect journey because it is so long. But you’re right, when that prospect is ready to talk to sales, they expect to talk to sales immediately.

John Jantsch (10:58.639)

Yeah

Debbie Howard (10:59.99)

So it takes a long time to get somebody to pick up that phone and to make that advance from a marketing qualified lead to a sales qualified lead. But I think that’s what marketing automation does so well. And we look at reverse engineering the move -ins and where did they come from? What was the original attribution source? But also how many of them entered in with an intent to talk to sales? So we’re able to take that subset of people who’ve gone all the way through the journey, become a resident in that community, and we’re able to look at every single touch point.

John Jantsch (11:21.394)

Hmm.

Debbie Howard (11:29.826)

the way. And what’s interesting is about for most of our clients, about 35 to 45 percent of the move -ins, the actual residents did not start out having intent to talk to sales. They progressed all by themselves with marketing automation without the sales team having to do anything.

John Jantsch (11:50.982)

Yeah. And I think that’s a part of lot of people underestimate too, is how much of that is going on without our knowledge, right? I mean, and that we can actually lose the sale before we had ever had the opportunity to make the sale, you know, without really understanding that people need, people want to go on parts of that journey on their own, you know, because nobody really wants a sales presentation, right? They quite often want to know how something’s going to work and be reassured that, you know, what you promised is going to happen.

But that happens very late in the journey a lot of times. how do you, and you and I have talked about this before, so I know a little bit, how do you align then that marketing approach with sales? Because a lot of times sales, my mother and father and mother -in -law father -in -law were in assisted living facilities and sales pretty much looked like whoever was walking by the phone when it rang.

So how do you get that, you alive?

Debbie Howard (12:53.642)

It’s actually a friction point that we always have to work through with every client because salespeople think if they have every call and every lead, they’re going to do better. But the reality is not everyone is ready for a sales interaction. And if you force it, you will lose them and they will go somewhere else. So it’s really a matter of respecting the prospect and allowing them to decide how they want to engage with you.

John Jantsch (12:56.081)

Yeah.

Debbie Howard (13:20.06)

and allowing them to raise their hand when they’re ready for that sales interaction. So how it usually goes is when we’re kind of talking to a new client, we’re talking about how marketing automation is a compliment. It does a lot of the rote and repetitive administrative work that the sales team doesn’t have to do. Somebody can go on and schedule a tour. They can pick a date and time. Marketing automation is gonna confirm their appointment, thank them for scheduling, remind them that they’re coming tomorrow.

And then after the visit’s over, maybe ask them for a review. And so we want to get the salespeople the right leads at the right time. They can only manage so many. So we want them to have those high intent, ready to advance prospects, but we can’t lose the pipeline. So at first the sales team likes that, right? That sounds really good. I’m gonna get the high intent, ready to convert leads. I’m gonna get fewer leads to work.

can spend more time with them and do what I do best, building relationships and report. It sounds great until 70 % of their leads disappear.

And then it’s like, well, where’s my leads? I want more leads. Well, these are all the leads that you threw away. These are the leads that you moved to loss. These are the leads that you moved, that you tried to reach twice and then moved to cold. But there’s a little bit of a panic that sets in until they start seeing that the pipeline is advancing. Marketing automation is delivering them month over month. These sales qualified leads. And what’s interesting is when you look at the length of stay,

John Jantsch (14:28.144)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

Debbie Howard (14:55.298)

for somebody who comes in as a sales qualified lead with lots of urgency, like I got to move in today, mom’s getting out of rehab, we need something immediately. Their length of stay is far shorter, which means your revenue is far less and they’re higher acuity, it’s more stress on the team. The people that actually have the longest sales site nurturing cycle and start as marketing qualified leads end up having almost double the length of stay.

John Jantsch (15:02.364)

Mm, right.

Debbie Howard (15:23.2)

So double your revenue, they stay longer, they have a better experience and it’s not a crisis situation.

John Jantsch (15:30.108)

That’s an interesting observation that could probably apply to a lot of industries. I sometimes talk about almost making people jump through hoops, making them consume certain content, making sure that when they do show up, they’re educated as much as like why we’re a good fit. I know some people push back on that. like, no, I just want the phone to ring. you really do, there’s a qualification process that goes through that. I know that’s not exactly what you were describing, but

But I think that’s interesting.

Debbie Howard (16:00.61)

think it is because I think that the assumption is, and we get a lot of people who say, I just want sales qualified leads, like just give me phone calls and tours. Sales qualified means they have an intent to speak to sales. It doesn’t mean they’re financially qualified or they’re going to be a good fit. And so there’s always has to be that additional, you know, qualification that happens in sales.

John Jantsch (16:07.246)

Right, right.

John Jantsch (16:17.808)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Debbie Howard (16:26.934)

for those people that have that urgency. But I think sometimes people have a very warped definition of what a sales qualified lead is. They think you’re handing them somebody who’s gonna tour today and move in tomorrow. And when they find out, know, they’re not a fit either from a health perspective or a financial perspective, it’s like, what has marketing done for us? Well.

John Jantsch (16:35.729)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:39.483)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:48.498)

Yeah. Yeah. And, and another element I’m sure that they have to deal with a lot is the 50 year old oldest daughter of the family has never bought this product before. Right. Really.

Debbie Howard (16:59.008)

and probably never wanted to and hopefully wouldn’t have to. And it’s disruptive and it’s expensive and it’s emotional and all of those things.

John Jantsch (17:05.586)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I know we fight with a lot of folks over websites. was one I was just looking at today. They were like, we need you to improve our website. was like, your website’s a complete takedown. You know, it is basically a brochure from 20 years ago. well, how do you explain to people the role, that their website plays in the sales process?

Debbie Howard (17:27.474)

We just tell them it’s their most important marketing asset. end of story, hard stop. And so if they haven’t done anything in three years, they need to do something. Now, they don’t want to hear that. And they want to talk about a refresh. Will it cost us more to refresh a bad website than it does for us to stand up a brand new, contemporary, mobile first, responsive type of a website?

John Jantsch (17:30.374)

Yeah.

Debbie Howard (17:54.434)

You know, every marketing channel in our industry drives people to the website. That’s where the conversion happens. That’s where the attribution happens. And that’s where the nurturing begins. So, you know, 90 % of people looking for a senior living community will visit the website during their journey. So we feel like it’s the number one most important investment.

John Jantsch (18:14.266)

Yeah. Well, and I think what a lot of people underestimate too, is like what you just said, that’s quite often where they start. Because again, you got to start somewhere. That’s the easiest thing. We sit down at a desk and we do a little research and that’s where we’ll start. But what I think a lot of people underestimate is as I get more involved in the journey, I’ll come back, but I have different objectives now. I’m there for a different reason now. Right. And so I think a lot of people underestimate that is just like, no, it just needs to have our phone number on there. Tell them what we do. But you know, no, I’ve got different

questions and objectives my third for time there.

Debbie Howard (18:47.394)

100%, it completely changes. We look at the three stages, the weather, the stage, the where stage and the when stage. And people in the weather stage are just trying to figure out, know, whether it’s now or, you know, the new year, whether I can afford it, whether dad’s going to get the veterans benefit. There’s all those weather questions. And then there’s where questions that are about, you know, the brand and then the when is about the urgency, but you need content, content, content to, for every single stage, every question.

John Jantsch (18:59.079)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:06.097)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:15.76)

Yeah. You, are, mentioned the course, but you were actually going as far as a smarter marketing certification. want to talk about that and maybe why, why you decided to go down that route.

Debbie Howard (19:28.298)

Yeah, well, you we think that there’s so much opportunity for education. We don’t have an industry certification in marketing. You know, we do have other things like a certified senior advisor. There are certain things, but we just felt like there’s a real opportunity in the industry to create some good standards and benchmarks. And really, for me, it’s always about how do we make this a better experience for the prospect?

John Jantsch (19:37.116)

Hmm.

John Jantsch (19:56.668)

Yes, yes.

Debbie Howard (19:57.694)

And if we can help people deliver a better experience, it’s gonna be a better reflection on the industry because to a large degree for people that are serving the assisted living and memory care part of seniors housing, they are selling a product that nobody wants, hopes they don’t need, have never bought, don’t know how to do it. And it’s challenging and it’s a heavy lift. So we feel like we can deliver a lot.

John Jantsch (20:15.122)

Mm -hmm.

Debbie Howard (20:25.514)

a lot of value to the industry. And we allow people, if they just want to take the course just for learning, just to do a better job internally or maybe holding another agency accountable, they can do that without the certification. But people that are really serious, each of our subject matter experts will be doing the videos, teaching their part of the course, and then they will review the work. So for instance, if somebody’s doing a class on persona development, right, they’re gonna have to submit.

their focus groups and their interviews and their outcomes and their persona documentation. And someone on our team will review it and then pass them or give it back to them for some more work.

John Jantsch (20:54.642)

Mm -hmm.

John Jantsch (21:08.71)

Yeah. And I think I’ve always believed the more education you can do, even with somebody who turns around and becomes a client, they’re a better client, right? Because they understand why you’re doing what you’re doing or why you’re asking them to do what, what you need to do. That’s always been my, my point of view. Yeah. Well, Debbie, it was great getting to some time with you. you want to tell people where they might connect with you, obviously find out about the certification and pick up a copy of smarter marketing for senior living communities.

Debbie Howard (21:23.746)

Yeah, absolutely.

Debbie Howard (21:37.184)

Yeah, thank you, John. I’m on LinkedIn, very active on LinkedIn, so you can definitely find me there. Senior Living Smart is the website. The book will be published on Amazon, so available on September 17th, which is next week.

John Jantsch (21:53.298)

Yep. Yep. Depend upon when you’re listening to this September 17th, 2024. bet you believe it or not, Debbie, people come back and listen to these years later. So I always like to get the date sort of out of their relative at least, but anyway, well, congratulations. And again, hopefully we’ll run into you soon out there on the road.

Debbie Howard (22:10.486)

Thanks, John.