nadosi.com

John Jantsch (00:00.923)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Keith Lover. He is a serial entrepreneur and marketing expert who has founded six companies, raised over $34 million for product launches and now leads Atomic Elevator. His team specializes in product launch support and created Ella, a pioneering tool for high-definition marketing.

He started his entrepreneurial journey at 14. He secured clients like Trader Joe’s, Whole Foods, and inspires others as a speaker and mentor. We were just talking about it. He lives in Red Lodge, Montana, active community in community service through Young Life. So Keith, welcome to the show.

Keith Lauver (00:44.526)

Thanks so much, John. Good beer.

John Jantsch (00:46.172)

So what did you do at 14?

Keith Lauver (00:48.026)

my gosh. So I had the opportunity to, build a software platform for an airport in Billings. was painting pipes in the summer and they found out I knew something about computers. And during the regular smoke break time, I started creating a database to keep track of the paper towels and other inventory got invited upstairs. That turned into an invitation to build the software.

John Jantsch (00:56.883)

John Jantsch (01:09.907)

Keith Lauver (01:14.862)

And apparently KPMG had offered him a bid for about $20,000. I said I’ll do it for two and they took it. So that was the very first commercial client I had.

John Jantsch (01:26.547)

Well, I think I started my first business when was 16. It was not nearly as glamorous. I was going door to door convincing people to let me seal their driveway. I paid my way through high school and college doing similar things.

Keith Lauver (01:32.723)

my gosh.

Keith Lauver (01:38.016)

That’s.

Keith Lauver (01:44.072)

I think the idea of asphalt going down and paint going up, we do what we have to do. I just caught a lucky break that day, right?

John Jantsch (01:47.347)

So we, we’re going to talk about, AI a lot today. I think, it’s a hot topic. It’s probably the hottest topic going right now. I, have, in fact, I’ve started a group I call practical AI for marketing. because I think it’s just a lot of, with any technology, there’s all this futuristic talk of what it can do.

or what it, you know, is going to do someday. And I really liked always bring it down to, okay, that’s great, but what should it do? So in terms of, of your conversations with smaller businesses, how do you help them see the practical uses of AI and not sort of the robots running the world, you know, future.

Keith Lauver (02:25.271)

Yeah

Keith Lauver (02:40.046)

You know, one of things that I like to do is separate the application side of things from the construction side of things. And I think there’s a lot of people that are confused about that, John. think, you know, I’m reminded of a workshop that was being done for business owners in Montana a couple of weeks ago, and they brought in a prompt engineer and machine learning expert for the day to teach them how to do stuff that most of them really didn’t care about and frankly didn’t understand.

John Jantsch (03:06.557)

Right?

Keith Lauver (03:08.738)

that that was what was going to be the topic. So don’t think people even know what this beast called AI is. So there’s people who are building tools and then there’s people who are actually using tools. And those two probably need to be separated before I could even answer the next part of your question.

John Jantsch (03:25.029)

Yeah. Well, first off, then let’s back up a little bit. What percentage of businesses, business owners, people working for businesses, do you think are actually using even a simple interface like chat GPT?

Keith Lauver (03:37.888)

I think every business owner I’ve talked to has at least experimented with and tried chat GPT. When we take forms on our website, we ask them how frequently are they using it? And I would say that probably a quarter of them aren’t using it more than once a week. And that’s surprising to me. They still haven’t found that thing. And if I might offer a hypothesis about why, I think we are used to something like Google where

John Jantsch (03:55.847)

Yeah, yeah.

Keith Lauver (04:06.978)

You type in a search and a computer gives an answer. And AI’s potential is so much different than that. But most people are sitting down and thinking about this as a search tool and maybe a little bit smarter search tool. And they’re just not sure what’s beyond that even at the application layer.

John Jantsch (04:25.757)

So one of the things that, I don’t know, I, you you talked about bringing in this, large language model expert to talk about things and like that just goes nowhere with the business owners. So I’m going to bring up agents, which, know, maybe we have to kind of break down a little bit, but that’s one of the areas where people are like the future’s coming. You’re going to have, you know, agents replacing all of your people. We don’t actually have agents yet. Not really.

because there’s a lot of things that I think are going to happen, over, mean, I think we’re going to have some simple task bots. but, but, but the one that people throw out, tell your agent to book me the best ticket on this flight, you know, blah, blah, blah. Well, they’ve got to have access to all the data, all the airline things. And those people aren’t going to share that information. Or if they do some big tech company, it’ll be the one that does the interface and we’ll just be a product of theirs like Facebook.

Keith Lauver (05:20.994)

Okay.

John Jantsch (05:23.973)

and not, not a user. talk, I just went and rambled all over the place there, but talk a little bit about, you know, the, the, where we are now with agents, what agents are, guess, where we are now and really what is going to be a hurdle to this large scale adoption.

Keith Lauver (05:41.516)

Yeah. So as I understand and use agents, they basically are bots, you will, programs that can perform a discrete task and do so in repetition and kind of string those tasks, perhaps one to another, to another. And instead of like right now, if you sit down and chat GPT and say, Hey,

John Jantsch (05:49.203)

you

Keith Lauver (06:02.926)

you know, can you give me input about a story or can you review this website and tell me the pros and the cons of it or whatever the query might be, an agent can actually do something that’s much more complex and a series of steps. So it might be, can you build me an entire website? Right? And step one is this and step two is this and step three, I think where agents are today,

John Jantsch (06:18.621)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Keith Lauver (06:27.538)

is still very much in the experimental world. I love the fact that as a company that’s created a platform, we now can begin to move our entire architecture into what they’re calling agentic. So we’re able to take what we were finding other ways of doing and we can now do it better and easier because most of the things that we need to have done are complex and require more than one step and agents will help us do that.

John Jantsch (06:40.883)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (06:53.757)

Yeah, no, there’ll be a lot of stringing these things together too, right? You complete this task and then go give your output to this agent who then has been trained to do X, right? I mean, is that kind of another way to look at it?

Keith Lauver (06:57.55)

for sure.

Keith Lauver (07:02.487)

Yeah.

I love that vision, John, that really interoperability of agents. It’s like, why not have the thing that’s really good at X talk to the other thing that’s really good at Y and talk to the other thing that’s really good at Z. In the field of marketing, of the analog metaphor, if you will, would be the branding person who just is the wizard in the marketing world, right? They’re able to just say, this is the emotional state that we’re going to evoke for people.

John Jantsch (07:12.179)

Right.

John Jantsch (07:31.123)

Mm-hmm.

Keith Lauver (07:34.254)

pontificate on that. And then you’ve got the designer who tries to interpret that. And then you’ve got the copywriter who actually puts words to it. And then you’ve got the HTML person who has to construct it. And then maybe you’ve got somebody that needs to be the messaging architect that’s thinking about it. And then the performance person, we get all these different things. Wouldn’t it be great if those could all be strung together?

John Jantsch (07:56.731)

Yeah. And I think that’s a, maybe that’s a little bit of the dilemma of how people, when they’re thinking about embracing AI in general is that, you know, one, one vision I’ve seen is, the org chart that has maybe those, those analog managers, if you will, is that what we’re to call people now? Analog managers. but that, but then each of those people will have three agents that help them do their function.

Keith Lauver (08:14.83)

I hope so.

John Jantsch (08:24.371)

and they’ve all been maybe specifically trained on a thing, but then I’ve also seen people say, no, we’re going to have, we’re going to have the data analysis agent. That’s going to go across department. you know, how do you, how do you see the org chart of the future?

Keith Lauver (08:39.266)

You know, I think, the org chart of the future is probably going to be as diverse as organizations of the future. think models, what’s beautiful about what’s happening in this world is the models can be completely novel. can create things that have never before been seen. An example is, you know, we have been building our go-to-market plans using our software itself. We haven’t needed really a marketing department. even haven’t had to do.

John Jantsch (08:40.305)

Peace.

John Jantsch (08:56.466)

Yes.

Keith Lauver (09:08.352)

advertising in a traditional way. Most of our team is fully fractional and we can all cooperate and actually perform at a much higher level for a lot less money. And I don’t even know what an org chart is. We had a potential investor asked us to build one and I’m like, we haven’t, we don’t even have one for our company. It’s just not the way we operate. We kind of collect around tasks and bring expertise to those tasks and then perform those tasks.

So it’s just a very different organizational model that we’ve chosen. And I think there’s a lot of freedom in how people are going to build the company.

John Jantsch (09:43.827)

But see, I hear an org chart in there. It’s just way different than anything we’ve been taught. So I think it’s still, because an org chart to me is not people doing jobs. An org chart is what functions need to be done. And so I think that’s kind of what you’re describing, but we’re all just used to this is our head of that and this is our VP of that. And I think that that whole, that’s what’s interesting about it. think what’s going on is it’s not just like,

Keith Lauver (09:48.878)

Yeah, yeah.

Keith Lauver (09:57.516)

Ooh, I love that. Different, yeah.

John Jantsch (10:13.405)

How do we augment what we’re already doing? It’s how do we rethink everything, right?

Keith Lauver (10:18.772)

I love the freedom. think the moment, when we accidentally discovered this idea that turned into this platform for marketing, call Ella, when this was not an intentional discovery, it was pure accident. And in that moment, every single neuron in my brain fired every pattern from that 14 year old kid who wrote the software for that airport and Billings to the guy who’d been a student of marketing for the last decade fired and said, wait a minute.

I can do this differently now and I can ask this question in this way and get a completely different perspective than the old model was go to the expert. If we invert and put all the experts into a model, it shifts and everything changes. And I’m addicted to that innovation. So I think it’s wonderful.

John Jantsch (11:07.633)

Yeah. Yeah. So, one of the certainly themes that is prevalent is that this technology is going to replace a lot of people. mean, every technology does, right? I mean, or at least changes, you know, what those people do. Where do you fall on kind of the, it’s going to revolutionize industries, replace a lot of people, augment, you know, lot of the value we can bring. I mean, where do you fall on that?

Keith Lauver (11:20.814)

you

John Jantsch (11:37.867)

continue.

Keith Lauver (11:39.342)

So yes, yes, and yes. I do think that AI is going to transform, to augment, to replace. But I don’t think that changes our sense of self. I don’t think that changes our value of fact. If anything, for me, what it’s done is created more freedom around that. I talked to so many people on our team. We’re avid minute by minute users of AI.

John Jantsch (11:41.391)

Yeah, OK.

John Jantsch (11:50.034)

Yeah.

Keith Lauver (12:08.974)

We’re more confident in what we can do and in the gifts that we’ve been created to bring to the world because we augment the things that maybe we’re not as good at. I’m a visionary, I’m not an integrator. So I see big ideas and when you ask me to actually turn that into a you know, a set of sequential steps, I just, my brain hurts. I don’t like that work and I don’t have to do that work anymore. So.

John Jantsch (12:13.939)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (12:35.795)

Yeah. Peace.

Keith Lauver (12:36.246)

I think it’s not replacing people, but it’s replacing some of the things that we as people have done. And what that does is gives us the freedom to go back to what is our zone of genius? What is our superpower? What is it that we love to do? And I don’t think AI will ever replace humanity. I think it’s just bringing us up to be the very best versions of ourselves.

John Jantsch (12:41.317)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:57.395)

Well, it’s interesting because I certainly, I’ve always, you know, from a marketing standpoint, we’ve, our monitor has always been strategy before tactics. Um, and I think that in a lot of ways that makes the strategic thinker who can also master AI, who also understands marketing operations. That’s the job of the future, isn’t it? As opposed to the agency that comes in and does the stuff.

Keith Lauver (13:22.06)

I think that’s right. I would say our focus has actually been trying to go in and provide even greater effectiveness and efficiency for the strategists. And so because of that, I see a world where AI can actually do a lot of the strategy when well-guided and augmented by humans through that. I would say for me, as I’ve contemplated kind of my own work shift in the last, say, year, most of my time is now relational.

And that can’t ever be replaced by AI. Most of my time is getting to understand people and their problems and then finding a way to bring that in. But I’m not spending time on strategies so much as I am building relationships that allow my tools to build that strategy. So I think that’s a higher level.

John Jantsch (14:12.413)

Yeah.

Well, there’s such a, even though it’s more one-to-one, there is such a brand aspect to that. There is such a trust aspect to that. And I think that those are the things that are really going to allow the, if there’s going to be winners and losers, I think people that get that, think are going to side on the win.

Keith Lauver (14:23.063)

Ooh, I love that. Yeah.

Keith Lauver (14:33.326)

You know what I love about what you said there too is just kind of reminds me of the benefit to AI in getting us out of ourselves that if we’re going to be able to establish trust, one of the ways that I do this today that I did in 12 months ago is I talk about the fact that I run everything I do through a blind spot and a bias detector. I run everything I do through the lens of our software.

that can look at 100 different marketing people’s perspectives. And that actually increases my trustworthiness, my credibility with somebody because I’m actually admitting my own limitations.

John Jantsch (15:05.811)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (15:16.339)

Yeah, yeah, that’s one of my favorite prompts is like, what should I be asking you? Or what am I not asking you? You know, that kind of thing, you know, or, or I sometimes have to say, stop agreeing with me. That’s a brilliant idea.

Keith Lauver (15:24.43)

Yeah.

Yes. I like to think that my AI is sometimes a little bit too puppy-like. You know, it just wants to wag its tail and say, yes, Keith, I love you. Will you rub my belly? It’s like, yeah. Exactly. It’s like, no, no, no. Or even when I ask AI to be to go do something and the end result, if I say, is this biased? And she says, yes. I’m like, well, why did you do that in that way in the first place? So.

John Jantsch (15:54.021)

Right. So, so, I have one more question, but I really do want, we haven’t, I want to spend some time on what you’re doing specifically with Ella because it relates to everything we’re talking about. But, one of the things that, anybody who says the five things that are coming this year, you know, personalization in marketing is, certainly a buzzword that’s going to be on that list all the time. is, is, and it seems AI can help that.

But I also don’t see a lot of people doing it yet. And is the real missing ingredient is it can’t personalize without access to data.

Keith Lauver (16:33.304)

think that’s a great insight. think I would challenge how much data we can give it access to. would say in general, I’ll give you an example. I love what there’s a tool called Crystal Nose has done, which is they’ve used AI to go, you know, essentially determine somebody’s personality. And that gives you a degree of personalization to present information in a particular style. So for example, anytime I do a sales follow-up,

I run it first through Crystal and I have Ella rewrite it to that person’s disc profile. And that gives me a level of personalization that’s not just this was the conversation we had, but this is who you are and how you probably prefer to receive information. So I think we’re getting closer to it.

John Jantsch (17:17.169)

Yeah. Yeah. And it might just be bullet points and short sentences as opposed to, you know, necessarily, hi, John. Exactly. Right. Right. So talk a little bit about Ella. If somebody came to you and said, what’s Ella?

Keith Lauver (17:26.321)

Yes. Exactly. These are the three things we talked about. Sign here.

Keith Lauver (17:38.86)

Yeah, so we describe Ella as a high definition marketing machine. And the reason that we’ve chosen to describe her that way is we have found as professional marketers that most marketing has historically been very fuzzy. The fuzziness has been caused by specializations and fragmentation, right? The fuzziness has been caused by shifts in tactics and expectations. And the fuzziness is the fact that at the end of the day,

Most marketing is really a hypothesis that needs to be tested out there anyway. So it’s social science, it’s behavioral science. And so what we’ve said is let’s try to provide more pixels to the picture. Let’s take frameworks and connect them. Let’s take pictures and define them in greater resolution. Let’s interconnect them so that when somebody says, I want to talk to John about duct tape marketing,

John Jantsch (18:10.515)

Yeah.

Keith Lauver (18:34.37)

they’re able to do so with just a high degree of precision. So Ella is a tool that enables better messaging, more discrete personas, and essentially better results because of this high definition process.

John Jantsch (18:49.907)

Yeah, boy, will say, you you used a fate, one of my favorite words, frameworks. Um, you know, one of the best things you can do if you’re trying to get some sort of output out of, uh, out of an AI tool is, is to say, use this framework, uh, that’s well-defined. think at least it gives it some guardrails to say, okay, you know, I’m not just going to write something that hopefully sounds good. You’re going to write something that.

Keith Lauver (19:04.216)

Yes.

John Jantsch (19:14.875)

maybe is using a proven framework. And so it’s going to be more effective right off the bat, whether or not the outputs, know, word for word, what you’re going to use, at least the structure will be there.

Keith Lauver (19:18.093)

Yeah.

Keith Lauver (19:25.538)

Yeah, I think frameworks, you know, I got drawn into the idea of frameworks because I was a computer guy who fell into the field of marketing, right? I’m used to here is a subroutine. If you’re going to tell a story, here’s seven blanks to fill in. Donald Miller, thank you for giving me the seven blanks to fill in. Like I need that kind of thing. And what has been true about all the frameworks, at least that I’ve experienced is while fantastic, they’ve always been discreet.

John Jantsch (19:32.541)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (19:44.381)

Yes, exactly.

Keith Lauver (19:55.008)

and probably more unitaskers. So they’re fantastic for one thing, but they are often missing another thing. And what, least in my mind has been the missing link to all of this is a unifying, almost marketing operating system that pulls all those frameworks together. And that’s the big aspiration for what we’re trying to build.

John Jantsch (19:59.675)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:16.817)

Now, are you staying very focused on the niche market of, and I thought I read this, of SaaS go to market, or are really putting yourself out there as any type of business or industry?

Keith Lauver (20:27.21)

yeah.

Keith Lauver (20:31.756)

Yeah, we started in the field of SaaS. Obviously, we are too a SaaS product and understand those frameworks very well. But as Ella has so quickly grown, people are contributing their own frameworks. We’ve got authors who are saying, use mine. Or we’ve got practitioners who say, have you heard about this amazing system called duct tape? And I’m like, yes. Yes, I have. And so we’re trying to integrate those. And so

John Jantsch (20:36.147)

Sure.

John Jantsch (20:47.251)

Sure. Right.

John Jantsch (20:52.999)

Hehehehehe

Keith Lauver (20:58.988)

The idea of Ella is she can help with B2B, B2C, really across industries. And she’s getting smarter every single time somebody uses her and at least volunteers their feedback to Ella.

John Jantsch (21:13.619)

So one question that comes up a lot of times and will probably be continued to be debated forever, but are there privacy concerns? You know, I’m sharing all of my personal company data. that something or, or, you know, as an agency, I’m sharing my clients data. Is that an issue with a model like, or a tool like Ella?

Keith Lauver (21:36.64)

It is an issue for all AI and Ella has decided to respond to that with kind of a very clear privacy policy, a very clear non-disclosure agreement that we enter into, and also very clear technical parameters where we have opted out underlying our tool is OpenAI, but we have basically disallowed OpenAI from using any prompt

for training purposes, any prompt for storage purposes. And so we can say with confidence that we are protecting the confidentiality of that information. And I think it is important that we do that.

John Jantsch (22:15.461)

Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s going to be, you know, a raging debate for some time. And I think we’ll end up having, won’t we end up having the same thing that happened to the search engines, that, you know, the, the, all the privacy and all the stuff that they’re, they’ve been doing and not telling anybody. We’ll, we’ll come back to in lawsuits probably.

Keith Lauver (22:35.31)

I am excited to see how intellectual property will continue to evolve around all of this. But in the meantime, we’re going to let people do great work and keep what they’re doing private.

John Jantsch (22:38.291)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:47.155)

Well, Keith, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there someplace you’d send folks to learn more about Atomic Elevator and your work?

Keith Lauver (22:56.652)

You bet, AtomicElevator.com and we’ve got free trials available. We’d love to sign up anybody. Let them take Elifer spin for a couple of weeks and see what kind of impact you can make for their clients.

John Jantsch (23:08.627)

Again, appreciate you taking a moment and maybe I’ll run into you one of these days next time I’m up in Montana.

Keith Lauver (23:15.713)

I hope that would be the case.

How to Outrank Big Competitors in Search

How to Outrank Big Competitors in Search written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Sam Dunning

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Sam Dunning, founder of Breaking B2B, an SEO firm specializing in SEO for revenue—not vanity metrics. Sam shares his insights on how small businesses can compete with industry giants in Google rankings by focusing on B2B SEO strategies that drive organic traffic and real conversions.

We discuss the dangers of falling into the “traffic trap”, where businesses chase high-volume keywords that don’t convert, and instead explore long-tail SEO tactics, strategic keyword research, and the role of AI in SEO. Sam also shares practical techniques for competitor SEO analysis, leveraging on-page and off-page SEO, and adapting to Google search updates to maintain visibility.

If you’re tired of seeing competitors outrank you in search, this episode is packed with actionable strategies to help your business dominate Google rankings and drive revenue.

Key Takeaways:

Avoid the Traffic Trap: Prioritize keywords that drive inbound leads over vanity metrics. Focus on search engine optimization that brings paying customers, not just clicks.
Use Long-Tail SEO to Compete: Instead of targeting high-competition terms, optimize for landing pages SEO with niche-specific keywords that align with customer intent.
Maximize EEAT for Authority: Build trust and credibility through technical SEO, backlinks, and authoritative content that aligns with Google’s EEAT framework.
Adapt to AI and Google Search Changes: Stay ahead of Google AI overviews and algorithm updates by creating high-value, user-focused content.
Leverage Local SEO & Competitive Analysis: For service businesses, local SEO is critical. Optimize Google Business Profile, target location-based keywords, and analyze competitors’ weaknesses to rank higher.
Invest in SEO Strategy, Not Shortcuts: SEO is a long-term game. Avoid SEO mistakes like low-quality backlinks and keyword stuffing. Instead, build a sustainable SEO content strategy that drives consistent business growth.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Sam Dunning
[00:31] Approach to SEO Strategy
[03:42] SEO Isn’t for Every Business
[06:21] SEO is a Long-term Game
[08:53] Your Marketing Niche
[13:00] Google Search vs AI Search
[15:24] SEO and Local Search
[18:46] Where to Start with SEO

More About Sam Dunning:

Check out Sam Dunning’s Website
Connect with Sam Dunning on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.98)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Sam Dunning. He is the founder at Breaking B2B, an SEO firm and the host of podcast by the same name, Breaking B2B. So Sam, welcome to the show.

Sam Dunning (00:20.738)

Hey John, thanks for having me on man. Looking forward to the chat.

John Jantsch (00:23.822)

So I know that one of your promises, taglines, messages, whatever we want to call it, SEO for revenue, not vanity. So let’s start there. How do you define that distinction and how do you use that to sort of differentiate yourself from other SEO firms?

Sam Dunning (00:42.742)

Yeah, great place to start. So in short, it’s after going through the pain myself. It’s so before I got into SEO as a profession or ran my own consultancy or agency, kind of working with past agencies, teams, contractors, and also potential clients, prospects, and customers that come to us. So much of the time get frustrated as they’ve either tried to do SEO themselves.

hired contractors, hired teams or whoever it may be, but have focused on the wrong metrics or wrong outcomes. So they’ve fallen into what I call John the traffic trap, which is even more important in the world of AI as AI search, LLMs take over slowly beat at Google’s market share. They’ve fallen into something called the traffic trap. What does the traffic trap means? Well, it means they go for informational based keywords on Google search.

John Jantsch (01:38.48)

businesses.

Sam Dunning (01:39.734)

So think of things like simple searches, like what is a KPI, how to build a website, what is a CRM, stuff that’s easily answerable nowadays with things like AI overviews in Google, which show up as really high juicy traffic terms, but are not likely to result in conversions, AKA inbound leads, demo requests, booked calls, or whatever that main call to action your B2B company wants.

John Jantsch (01:50.49)

Yep.

Sam Dunning (02:07.092)

So they fall into that trap thinking we need to get traffic at all costs, but it’s not going to result in, or it’s very unlikely to result in a book called demo or conversion. Now I thought, well, that’s a waste of time, especially running, running a business myself. And I’m sure you’re the same John, like most marketing that we put, whether it’s our own resource or agencies or contractors want to result in actual kind of qualified leads or revenue. So we flipped that on its head. thought, how can we do the opposite of that?

and focus on what is a dream client actually searching for when they need our offer, when they have this very specific problem we solve or they’re comparing alternatives and how can we show up and start driving qualified inbound traffic for those terms.

John Jantsch (02:50.0)

Yeah, and I think one of the things, know, there are a lot of people that have enjoyed what looked like a lot of good organic traffic that are kind of freaking out because all of those information searches are going away or Google’s like hoarding them, right? And so a lot of people have seen real drops in traffic and they’re freaking out, right? But what you’re saying is that was garbage traffic anyway, wasn’t

Sam Dunning (03:03.566)

Mm.

Sam Dunning (03:10.978)

Yeah, now, now don’t get me wrong, top of funnel or informational based SEO isn’t completely dead. But if you’re doing a very light version of it, stuff that can be simply answered by an AI or LLM, then that probably is a waste of your time. And those prospects that are searching for that kind of stuff, like very simple what is or very simple how to terms are probably just going to land on your page, get the info and bounce off.

John Jantsch (03:35.93)

Yeah, yeah, I do. I do it dozens of times a day myself, right? You because I just want to figure out like, how do I make that thing work in this tool that I’m using? And I know I could find somebody who’s written about it, but I can’t even tell you what their website was or what it was about. So SEO really, with a lot of small business clients, is so misunderstood that it gets a really bad rap, you know, because a lot of people hire SEO people, they don’t know what they’re doing.

Sam Dunning (03:51.522)

Yeah, yeah, that’s it.

John Jantsch (04:04.804)

they’re getting some reports once a month that seem to say they’re ranking for something and ultimately they get really frustrated. And, so, you know, what is it that you think, the, the, the, true, like value-based, let’s put it that way. Cause there are a lot of scammers out there. The true sort of value-based SEO firm is, is going to be telling their clients today. that is kind of different.

different than smoke and mirrors that I think a lot of SEO folks have used to describe what they’re doing.

Sam Dunning (04:37.238)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I’d say one of the first things is that SEO is not for every business. And what do I mean by that? Well, I mean, first and foremost, you have to be in a sector that actually has demand to capture. So you have to be in a known category and have folks, AKA your dream clients or prospects actively searching for your offer. Because if you’re trying to create some kind of new tool, new service, new offer, Google is, SEO is always best as a demand capture channel.

John Jantsch (04:43.216)

Hmm.

Sam Dunning (05:05.036)

So you need prospects in market searching for your offer. That’s the first thing. The second thing is you actually have to have resource to make it worthwhile. Whether that is your own cash, like you mentioned, they’re hiring a contractor agency, whoever it may be, that you can invest to actually give it a good amount of time to see success, or you need the resource in-house. Marketers that actually know what makes a solid SEO campaign.

know how to actually build a revenue driving SEO program, whether that is creating, doing solid keyword research around what your dream clients search or when they need the offer, building content that matches that intent that resonates with dream clients and is also following SEO best practices than the other elements of SEO, be it link building, technical SEO, et cetera. And you have to have the longevity to make it worthwhile. And you can, don’t get me wrong, you can see results with SEO done right as quick as 90 days, but

John Jantsch (05:56.613)

Yes.

Sam Dunning (06:03.762)

If you’re looking at it as a quick hit and you’re thinking, yeah, I’ll do this for a month. Then I might switch and do paid ads. Then I might do some social ads. Then I might try some outbound sales. Then I might do some review sites. Then it is a waste of your time. Do another channel that you can give a chance or stick to paid media.

John Jantsch (06:20.398)

Yeah. So what do you tell a client when, mean, because you, just told me something a lot of clients don’t want to hear, right? It’s like, no, I, you know, I, see my top three competitors are, know, on top of Google. How come I’m not? so, you know, how do you kind of set the expectation for that fact that it’s a long-term game? Because let’s face it, there have been SEO folks that I sound like I’m really negative SEO, but I’ve just seen too many small businesses get kind of burned by just not understanding it. And so not knowing what they’re even buying,

Sam Dunning (06:46.53)

Yeah, I get it.

John Jantsch (06:49.902)

So because a lot of SEO firms hide behind that, it’s a long-term game, it’s a long-term game, which just means you’re never gonna get results.

Sam Dunning (06:57.516)

Yeah, it’s that classic response, right? Like the client says, or the potential customer says, how long does SEO take agency says, six to 12 months, sign our 12 month retainer and we’ll be good. So what you said is correct in the sense that let’s face it. Most of us, whether we’re a B2B service company, tech company, software company, we have giant competitors, right? We’ve got the top three, the top four, the top five that always come up in sales conversations to an annoying level.

John Jantsch (07:06.298)

Right.

Sam Dunning (07:25.57)

And they’re probably, if we’ve not done SEO ranking above us for some of those core terms that we want to start driving leads for. Now, usually for those juicy terms, there’s quite often competitors owning those. So let me give you a tangible example. If let’s pretend we sold proposal software as a tool. We might want to own terms like best proposal software or best proposal tools, et cetera.

But those are gonna be extremely competitive. You’ve got massive software companies like Proposify, Quilla, PandaDoc, well-funded companies that have a ton of cash to spend on marketing and SEO. Now, how can we beat these companies? Because we’re probably not gonna get ranked for that keyword for years, realistically. Well, that’s when you need to do something called long tail SEO. And you need to, instead of thinking like we’re gonna rank for best proposal software in this instance, we might go for things like, we might pick niches that…

that are maybe underserved or that we’ve historically sold well into. So you might think, all right, short term, like the next three months or so, we’re gonna go for like proposal software for FinTech teams or for sales teams or for HR teams, or we’re gonna target competitors. Like we’re gonna go for Proposify alternatives or GetAccept alternatives, all that kind of stuff. there’s always quick wins you can grab with SEO, but it’s naturally knowing first and foremost, what niches you wanna target.

John Jantsch (08:28.464)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:43.14)

you

Sam Dunning (08:44.972)

what your prospects might be searching for and realizing that those really super competitive terms are going to be owned by the giants and that we have to chip away at the stuff they’re under serving.

John Jantsch (08:53.936)

Yeah. And I love that idea. You know, I have people come to me all the time and they’re starting a business and they’re like, should I choose a niche? And I’m like, well, my take is, mean, if you have a real reason, like you’re an expert in that and you’ve worked in it all your life. Otherwise, I think what happens is a lot of people choose niches they think are good. And, but, you know, then they’re like six months later having to start their business over again. but I’m always telling people you don’t have to choose a niche, but you should niche your marketing.

Sam Dunning (09:15.48)

Mm.

John Jantsch (09:21.412)

And that’s really what you’re talking about is that, you have campaigns that are like, say professional services is a category for you. Well, there’s 10 subcategories in there and you should be messaging to those 10 subcategories. And I’m hearing you say that that’s a, that’s a solid foundation for approaching SEO today.

Sam Dunning (09:42.122)

Exactly right exactly right. So I always say Like going back to marketing fundamentals like SEO Let’s ignore SEO for a second the main marketing fundamentals are have an offer But have an offer that serves a dream client that ideally has historically bought well into your service is in a niche that can easily Ford your offer Has the expensive problem you solve is motivated to solve it and has no issue spending cash on it

If you can get those lined up, that’s good, not just for SEO, but for marketing in general. So I have a very simple, I’m a simple guy. A lot of my strategies are straightforward when it comes to actually building out your SEO, like what keywords should we target? What type of content should we create? I recommend folks, whether it’s a founder, whether it’s your marketing leader, whoever in your organization makes sense. The very simple strategy for finding what I call money keywords, which in simple terms of commercial keywords that your dream clients will search for needing your offer.

Fire up a Google Sheet, fire up an Excel Sheet, split it into four main columns. Column one is what you actually call your offer. Going back to proposal software, that might be proposal software, proposal tools, proposal platform. Column two, what are those money niches that you’ve historically sold well that can have the problem you solve and motivate to solve it and can easily afford the offer? Could be, like you said, financial firms, accountancies, whatever those niches are. The third is what are those main competitors that always come up in sales calls? That’s column three. And the fourth is…

This is probably a framework you’ve talked about on the podcast. I’m sure jobs to be done. What are your dream clients jobs to be done? What are those struggling moments they face? Maybe they try to do something internally, like they cobbled together a solution on Google sheets or Excel, or maybe in the sales proposal world, like it would be like something like how to build a sales proposal within Google docs or how to, how to build out sales proposals that convert all that kind of stuff. Why do I build those four columns? Well,

John Jantsch (11:14.544)

Mm-hmm, true.

Sam Dunning (11:37.486)

It helps me build out long tail keywords that my dream clients were actually going to search for needing the offer. And if I get, if I’m, if I have a team, then I might involve my sales team. So they can actually come with me to say, look, these are competitors that come up. These are the niches that are doing well right now. Um, these are the common frustrations or our clients jobs to be done or struggling moments. And then we can have well-informed keyword research. That’s also going to fuel our content when we get to that stage.

that our target prospects are probably actually looking for when they need our offer.

John Jantsch (12:10.248)

So one of the things that if we could do a quick search and find 10 blog posts on people saying SEO is dying and AI is going to eat all SEO organic traffic. one of the things I’m hearing you say is, or at least that I’m seeing is, if you’re really focused on high demand, AI is not really returning results for somebody who is looking to hire

an accountant in their community right now, right? mean, if somebody who’s really doing that level of search, they’re not getting an AI overview for that, are they?

Sam Dunning (12:46.766)

Not so much not to say there aren’t it’s like right now from what we’re saying a lot of the AI Overviews and more for informational based searches Not always but quite a lot of time now. There’s there’s obviously two sides to the coin with your typical Google result now There’s sometimes an AI overview at the top Then you’ve got some a couple sponsored listings. Then you’ve got the organic results in between but that aside You’ve also got LLMs like chat GPT search perplexity, etc

John Jantsch (12:49.956)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Dunning (13:16.416)

Now, a lot of folks are saying stuff like, when I say a lot of folks, mean, random marketers on LinkedIn, et cetera, they like to make a lot of noise and saying stuff like Google search is dying and all this kind of stuff. the truth is that LLMs, whether that is chat, chat, GPT, perplexity, et cetera, are gaining chat. GPT is especially are gaining a bit more market share, but it’s nothing in comparison to Google. Google’s still growing and it still is by far the most searched engine. when it comes to those prospects.

John Jantsch (13:26.405)

Yes.

John Jantsch (13:44.752)

So what do we, just to put a number on that, 2, 3 % for the LLM?

Sam Dunning (13:50.67)

I can’t, I can’t remember what it’s last valued at, but Brian Fishkin has just done a report. So one of the, one of the well-known SEOs he’s just put out a report to show that I mean, Google is literally kind of a hundred X or so more compared to some of these LLMs. So what I’m saying is the thing to consider is if you have a more technical user, so if your end clients are more technical, they’re probably using more AI search. If not, they’re more of a layman.

They’re probably still using Google for now, but it’s more to be aware that AI is on the rise. We can certainly dive into some ways that you can rank on LLMs and chat to you between similar happy to dive into that. But I think that’s one thing to bear in mind. Most folks are still using Google when they have intent to review offers.

John Jantsch (14:36.848)

Yeah. Sometimes we forget about, you know, what our target market does. Like, do they read the newspaper? Do they, you know, it’s like, that’s what we need to pay attention to. Right. So, so, uh, instead of ranking on the LLMs, I’d let’s for a minute go into local search. Um, so a lot of, let’s say I’m a local home remodeler. Um, I mean, in, in this day and age search has really been, I mean, we can run ads and do things, but search has been a big driver of business, uh, for me, especially if I can get myself in that three pack.

Sam Dunning (14:50.211)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (15:05.776)

So how is local search going to be impacted?

Sam Dunning (15:10.614)

Yeah. I mean, to be blunt, I don’t do tons with local businesses. most exactly, exactly. So a lot of my clients are kind of more national, not necessarily serving, serving small end industries. Now, yeah, some of that, again, some of that, certain searches will, will be appearing in whether it’s Google AI overviews. So you get the quick review, and that sort of things. And I think more of it is understanding the crux of SEO in my opinion, at least.

John Jantsch (15:14.67)

Yeah, because B2B is more national, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sam Dunning (15:40.814)

is yes, you follow simple guidelines with technical. So for example, if you were, say, I don’t know, providing HVAC in a certain state of the U S so let’s say in New Jersey, those kinds of HVAC services in New Jersey, for example, if we actually want to typically what’s going to rank for that is probably a landing page. And the usual framework I like to follow for a landing page is problem. Are you facing this problem with whatever’s going on in your home? This is the impact of that problem.

We’ll agitate a bit and then this is the solution. This is how we’re well equipped to solve these issues, these bleedneck frustrations. And then you’ll probably show some examples of your offer. You’ll have some client testimonials and reviews might have an FAQ like what’s your pricing? How long does it take? What’s your refund policy? And you have a call to action to book a call. The crux of SEO is reviewing what’s ranking right now. In this case for our target search term, this offer in this location.

And how can I completely blow that page out of the water? How can I make my page more helpful, more useful, more educational, trustworthy and convincing to this dream client? And a lot of that comes down to customer research, like knowing what your prospects actually care about their jobs to be done in their end goals. Yes, you need basic technical SEO. So you need your focus keyword in the URL. You need it in the H1 in the MetaTitle description. And you might want some internal links on that page to other blog articles or other useful pages. But if you can follow that framework.

With local SEO, in most cases, you can actually outrank competitors without even worrying about backlinks. Cause a lot of these local websites, they’re not really doing a lot of SEO. They might have like a couple pages, like homepage, couple service pages, portfolio contact. If you can actually strategically build out what I call these money pages for like offer plus industry, offer plus location, and do that in a systematic way that’s custom research backed, then you can, you can probably start ranking quite nicely and pulling in some leads.

John Jantsch (17:14.412)

Yeah. Right.

John Jantsch (17:36.034)

You said one of my favorite words that you Brits say, HVAC. I love that term.

It’s a little different than the way us Americans pronounce it.

Sam Dunning (17:50.23)

It’s also niche isn’t it when Brits say niche and US says niche. I always get those two mixed up.

John Jantsch (17:51.788)

Yeah. Well, I have learned niche too. I rather prefer niche. So that’s one. I have a lot of Canadians that are clients and a couple of their words of process is one that as opposed to process that I love to harass them about. you went into a business, they said, Hey, Sam,

Sam Dunning (17:59.071)

Okay.

John Jantsch (18:16.506)

Come help us. We’re not ranking for anything. You know, they’ve got a decent business. They’ve got a decent product or offer. I mean, that’s not really the issue. Where do you start? I mean, what do you, how do you kind of start the process? And let’s say they’ve bought into, it’s going to be a six month process. Do you have a set? You know, here’s what we do first. Here’s what we do next. Here’s how we expand that.

Sam Dunning (18:37.678)

Yeah, yeah, so you start with what we briefly touched on earlier. So understanding the main offer, problems they solve, competitors, industries that they serve well, that have that expensive problem and motivated to fix it and have cash to easily invest in the offer. So you build out that Google sheet, formulating those offers, industries, jobs to be done and competitors, make those four main columns. And then from there,

John Jantsch (18:42.82)

Yep.

Sam Dunning (19:05.026)

We’re making our money long tail commercial keywords. So what service do you want to make at us, Or what offer?

John Jantsch (19:12.99)

you know, let’s do mine, marketing strategy.

Sam Dunning (19:16.182)

Okay, it’s quite a nice broad one. And do we want to serve like specific niches? Are we gonna?

John Jantsch (19:18.442)

Yeah, let’s go with home service businesses where we’re going to serve like remodeling contractors, roofers, landscapers.

Sam Dunning (19:26.23)

Yep, lovely, lovely. Yeah, yeah, so we could, if we wanted to drill down on those niches, some of our offerings might be, some of our money keywords might be like marketing services for landscaping or best marketing agency for landscapers and hitting some of those home niches. And then once we’ve kind of worked out, once we’ve exhausted what I call these long tail keywords, and then if we go to kind of…

That would be kind of some of the high commercial intent keywords. If we, if we went more jobs to be done, it might be how to rank higher as my home services business or why is my business not showing up on Google? Why is my landscape business not driving leads or why is my landscaping website not converting? Those might be some of the struggling moment searches.

John Jantsch (20:11.442)

So those were all questions, by the way, right?

Sam Dunning (20:15.116)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those are things that probably come up on discovery calls. That’s how you pull those. So make an exhaustive list of that. Like I said, if you’re the founder, you’ll know a lot of these, but if you perhaps have a sales team, they can help you contribute to that. Then simplest way to actually build content that ranks is to just Google those keywords. So let’s say marketing agency for landscapers or best marketing agency for landscape or something like that. Google the keywords, see what the top three organic pages are.

John Jantsch (20:15.952)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:28.4)

Sure,

Sam Dunning (20:44.652)

what type of page they are. This is called addressing, assessing the intent. Is it a landing page, a blog article, a how-to, a product list, a comparison, whatever. Probably gonna be, I’d imagine a landing page for that type of keyword. It might be a top 10 comparison, like we reviewed the top marketing agencies in 2025 for landscapers. Probably one of the two. See what shows more in the organic search results. Let’s pretend it’s a landing page. I’d review the top.

John Jantsch (21:03.12)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Dunning (21:12.396)

three landing pages. So what’s ranking now of my competitors. I look for gaps in those pages. Usually landing pages are quite thin. This is our offer. There’s some testimonials. Here’s a to action. So I would do what we talked about earlier, problem agitation solution based on our knowledge of the industry or ourselves team’s knowledge. So start with the hero area, the top banner. This is the offer. Here’s a call to action. Here’s a book of cool calls to action. Are you facing these problems?

around your landscaping company, like struggling to drive leads for your website, competitors above you in organic search results or spending loads of cash on ads and not returning pipeline. Here’s exactly how we fix it. Here’s three video testimonials of customers we sold it for. Here’s our exact process from A to Z. Here’s some FAQs around our offer. Why are we more expensive than other marketing agencies? Do we have a proven process? Do we have a returns policy?

How quickly can I see results? All those FAQs from those kind of really tight objections you get on sales calls. And then yeah, follow the technical SEO basics. So the focus URL has the keywords. So yourdomain.com forward slash best landscaping marketing agency. Same for the H1, same for the meta title and description. So that’s what I call the blow out the water strategy, review what’s ranking, make your page more helpful, useful, educational, trustworthy.

John Jantsch (22:10.03)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Dunning (22:34.84)

Google rolled out a framework called EEAT, Experience Expertise Authority Trust a while back. And for more, I guess, for less competitive terms, that alone, doing that at scale in a systematic way, like saying, look, we’re gonna publish, we’re gonna build out and publish five to 10 pages each month, whatever’s realistic for your company, we’ll steadily get your rankings. When you get to more competitive terms, I don’t know, in the marketing agency world, like things like best marketing agency in the US or whatever it might be,

John Jantsch (22:37.626)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (22:52.624)

Yeah. Right.

Sam Dunning (23:03.886)

you’re gonna have tons of competitors. That’s when you’ll need the help of backlinks to build up your website’s authority. And there’s a bunch of ways to build links, happy to dive into, but that’s just a starting point that I’d recommend.

John Jantsch (23:07.918)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (23:17.348)

My favorite is guesting on podcasts, quite frankly, because we’re going to link back to your site, Sam, and we’re going to promote the heck out of this episode. so that to me is one of the best backlinks that you can get is going on people shows. Plus you get the exposure, you know, you might actually get a client because somebody listens to it. So that’s my favorite. Yeah. Yeah.

Sam Dunning (23:36.79)

Yeah, it’s great. It is one of the best. I’d probably put that as number one or number two for sure. My other favorite is building partnerships, which again has more holistic business play. So this is finding partners that serve the same ICP, the same idle client profile as you, but are not direct competitors. So as a real example, I partner with a LinkedIn ads agency, Impactable. They serve just like me, B2B service and B2B SaaS clients, but they’re not going after SEO clients because they don’t offer it. So.

John Jantsch (23:44.911)

Right.

Sam Dunning (24:05.518)

I approached their founder guy called Justin a while back and I’m a big fan, John of weird, painfully short messages if I’m trying to get stuff done. So I probably sent you one. I find the founder or the marketing leader on LinkedIn. I’ll say something like, Hey Justin had a weird idea to scale your organic traffic and in bounds you against a conversation. He’ll probably connect with me on LinkedIn or whatever channel I outreach email, whatever, and say, Sam, what are you on about? But let’s hear what you’ve got to say. Then I’ll shoot him like a loom video.

John Jantsch (24:30.084)

Yeah.

Sam Dunning (24:33.006)

and just say, look, I’ve got an idea. In this case, partnership play. The small step initially I might offer is I’ll write out a guest blog article for you that will be really useful to your audience. And in return, I just want to link back. And then they might do that and that might grow into, okay, let’s do a podcast together. Okay, let’s do some more content together. All right, let’s start presenting business each other’s way. So it’s gone from just a small SEO play to like reciprocal business. Just like your podcast is kind of has so much more play to it than just SEO.

John Jantsch (25:00.878)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, Sam, I appreciate you taking a few moments to drop by the duct tape marketing podcast, where would you invite people to connect with you find out more about your work?

Sam Dunning (25:09.942)

I really appreciate it. Three, three main ways. Really one is LinkedIn. I post ramblings on SEO each and every day. The second is the Breaking B2B podcast where we interview just like this marketing leaders as well as solo episodes on SEO and what’s working on marketing today. Or the third is if you’re tired of seeing competitors above you and organic search results, stealing traffic inbound leads and more, then we might be able to fix it with our unusual approach to SEO. It’s BreakingB2B.com. Happy to chat.

John Jantsch (25:37.584)

Again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Sam Dunning (25:43.022)

Cheers, man. Thank you.

The Truth About SEO, AI, and Content in 2025

The Truth About SEO, AI, and Content in 2025 written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Bruce Clay

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Bruce Clay, widely regarded as the “Father of SEO.” With a career spanning nearly three decades, Bruce has witnessed every major shift in search engine optimization—from the early days of simple keyword ranking to today’s AI-driven landscape.

During our conversation, Bruce shared powerful insights into how Google ranking, AI-generated content, and SEO strategy are evolving in 2025. We discussed the impact of search engine algorithms, the role of content marketing, and why businesses must rethink their approach to website optimization and organic traffic.

SEO is changing fast, and Bruce Clay’s insights highlight why businesses must adapt or risk being left behind. Whether you’re an SEO consultant, marketer, or business owner, focusing on SEO strategy, usability, and high-quality content will be critical in 2025.

Key Takeaways:

Quality Over Quantity – Google now prioritizes on-page SEO and content marketing strategies that focus on user experience rather than sheer volume of content.
AI-Generated Content Needs a Human Touch – AI can create thousands of pages, but search engines favor SEO best practices that combine automation with human expertise.
Link Building is Still Relevant—But Different – Google ignores low-quality links, meaning only the highest-authority backlinks contribute to organic traffic and rankings.
SEO Success Depends on Usability – Factors like site navigation, search engine algorithms, and mobile-friendly design impact website optimization more than ever.
The Rise of AI Overviews – Google’s AI-generated answers are shifting how users interact with search results, making SEO consultants rethink search engine optimization strategies.
Brand Mentions Are More Valuable Than Ever – As AI prioritizes trusted sources, appearing in podcasts, guest blogs, and digital marketing discussions is key to staying relevant.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Bruce Clay
[00:53] SEO in 1996
[04:47] The Growing Importance of SEO
[11:19] How to Create Quality Content for SEO
[14:50] Is Zero-Click the End of SEO?
[18:59] Guest Podcasting Can Help SEO

More About Bruce Clay:

Check out Bruce Clay’s Website
Connect with Bruce Clay on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.26)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Bruce Clay. He is known professionally as the father of SEO. He’s been a world renowned expert in the field of SEO since 1996. A lot of people couldn’t spell SEO in 1996, probably, right? Bruce programmed the first webpage analysis tool. created the search engine relationship chart, which is earned

Bruce Clay (00:22.021)

John Jantsch (00:27.734)

over 300,000 or did earn over 300,000 downloads in its first month. He wrote and taught how to optimize websites to be found in search, establishing bruceclay.com as the trusted source for how-to information in the field of search engine optimization. So Bruce, welcome to the show.

Bruce Clay (00:46.083)

Thank you very much. Glad to be here.

John Jantsch (00:48.174)

So I would ask you to tell me about your history in involvement in SEO, but that would take the whole show probably, right? So let’s just start with, what was kind of the kernel of SEO? Like 1996, a lot of people didn’t have websites. So what did SEO look like when you first got started?

Bruce Clay (01:07.333)

Let me give you a little bit of background. My background is programming. You know, I have one of these degrees in math and computer science, but I also have an MBA. So I was looking for something that was marketing, but programming and a long-term search, which is an algorithm.

John Jantsch (01:16.302)

Mm.

Bruce Clay (01:32.823)

So that’s what really attracted me to it in its entirety. I got in, programmed some stuff, came up with some of the first tools, and started doing optimization. I have a background in mainframe optimization, so I just moved it over and started optimizing web pages. And they were

John Jantsch (01:51.512)

Yeah, okay.

Bruce Clay (02:00.889)

You know, I was trying to become a consultant, right? And consultants name the company after them and they do consulting and that’s what consultants do, right? And there weren’t a lot of people that were really aware of the power of marketing online, but a lot of companies had websites. They were catching on.

John Jantsch (02:11.736)

Yeah. Right.

Bruce Clay (02:28.325)

If we remember back to 1996, that was when Al Gore invented the internet, right? I mean, the hype was started. This is where you got to be. And a few people. And by the way, I was being found not because people knew to use a search engine to find me, but I was high activity in newsletters. Right? So.

John Jantsch (02:33.762)

Right.

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (02:54.979)

Yeah.

Bruce Clay (02:58.223)

People who would stumble into a newsletter would find some of my articles and then they would call me. And the original websites were small, let’s face it. mean, now there’s thousands of pages, but back then, you you get a 50 page website, it’s pretty good size.

John Jantsch (03:12.654)

yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:19.246)

Well, they were kind of brochure aware, you know, is how people kind of looked at him. So it was like, need, we need to put our products on there and how do people contact us? And that’s it. Yeah.

Bruce Clay (03:28.941)

Yeah. And quite frankly, that was my website. And when I think back about it, it was so weird because there were no rules. Right. And my very first website, the home page had a logo, had a paragraph about what we do, and then a paragraph about the main topics of the website. And those paragraphs were my only navigation.

John Jantsch (03:32.312)

Sure, it was everybody’s first one.

John Jantsch (03:37.795)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (03:58.584)

Yeah. Right, right, right.

Bruce Clay (03:59.277)

I didn’t have navigation across the top or down the side. You go in, you read the paragraph, you click, you go into that section. And when I think back about

John Jantsch (04:07.128)

Well, please tell me you had a sign my guestbook link on there somewhere so you could capture an email, right?

Bruce Clay (04:15.073)

No, I wasn’t even doing that. I mean, was, I’m, my philosophy for many, many years is I answer questions until they surrender. I gave away everything, all the information I could. But people who wanted to rank, that was why they called me. And they contacted me by email, because my email was in the footer, our phone number.

And the very first day, it was Wild West. mean, it was there were no rules. Right. This is three years before Google.

John Jantsch (04:56.535)

All right.

Bruce Clay (04:57.965)

I mean, Excite, AltaVista, Infoseek, I mean…

John Jantsch (05:00.12)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. AOL, AOL was in there already, I think even.

Bruce Clay (05:03.247)

This is back in 96. In 96, we were still on motive.

John Jantsch (05:09.198)

Yeah, yeah, sure. All right, well, let’s fast forward. We’ll go back and forth a little bit here, but I would say 2005. I’m going to pin it there, maybe beyond that, but not only were websites very prevalent, know, blogging had come on the scene. You and I were talking about podcasting. I started my podcast in 2005.

Bruce Clay (05:11.503)

So…

John Jantsch (05:35.82)

And certainly SEO had become really a significant marketing channel and practice. mean, you had SEO firms that that’s all they did. talk a little bit about, you know, maybe how important SEO had become at that point. I’m going to fast forward to where we are today, but say, you know, 20 years ago, how important it become and, you know, how people were winning.

Bruce Clay (06:04.229)

Well, there was no effective social media environment. There were newsletters and email. That’s always been here. But SEO on a bang for the buck was highly effective. Remember, for many years, even when Google started, it was just 10 blue links. They weren’t even promoting a lot of ad sales.

John Jantsch (06:29.23)

Sure. Yeah, yeah, of course.

Bruce Clay (06:34.309)

it was, it was very weird. advertising online was just getting going on a lot of environments. but for traffic purposes, it was really, you had SEO and, it was common to have, because Google came out in, 98, 99.

PageRank promoted a lot of people to do links. So there was a lot of early stage spam that were out, they were buying links. There’s no such thing as a bad link. Every link counts, you know, one of those kinds of things. And in fact, was whoever dies with the most links wins. And quality didn’t matter and sentiment didn’t matter. I could say I hate you or I love you and it’s

still page rank. So it was pretty wild at those early stages. If you fast forward to today, Google has exactly the opposite. They only count your best links and the rest are ignored. Going out and getting more links is usually a waste because they’re not going to be the best. And if they’re not the best, Google doesn’t need them.

John Jantsch (07:50.595)

Right.

John Jantsch (07:58.275)

Yeah.

Bruce Clay (08:02.497)

My speculation is Google only uses 20 % of your links and then they only use the ones that are recent. Freshness of your link inventory counts. So yeah, what was going back then for PageRank and manipulation and spamming, those days are long gone. So the actual SEO has changed.

John Jantsch (08:27.138)

Yeah, well, I would say 15 years ago, so moving up a little further forward, all of sudden content became everything. know, people, more content, blog content, know-how content, you know, to the point where it became ridiculous, but it still became a huge, you couldn’t do SEO without new volumes of content.

Bruce Clay (08:50.989)

And that is especially true today. However, the usability of the content has changed dramatically. And you see, I mean, I’m in the same boat as everybody else. We have clients that come to us and say, I just need content. And the answer is more of the same doesn’t help. Let me help the listeners.

If I want to rank for Mouse.

Doing 20 pages on the keyword of mouse is counterproductive and actually hurts your ranking. What you need to do is build a hierarchy of mouse and then the types of mice and et cetera. You build a content expertise and the quality of each page is why the search engine wants you. But having 20 of them on mouse

is not going to help you. also, if you have a lot of pages on information that’s 20 years old, that doesn’t help you. Classic example. I had 6,000 pages on my website. But early on, I would go to conferences, and we would, I’d have a team go, and we would live blog sessions.

John Jantsch (10:24.14)

Yep.

Bruce Clay (10:25.029)

which were great and we’d have links from the people who were speaking and it was wonderful. However, live blogging a session from 2004 on SEO does no good today.

John Jantsch (10:38.91)

A little bit irrelevant, right?

Bruce Clay (10:40.677)

That’s not relevant. And so I went through a process. cut out, I’m down 1800 blog pages, which by the way, still a lot, compared to 4,000, I mean, I had a ton of pages that I cut off my site. And so it isn’t an issue of quantity. It actually turns out that the current issue is the quality of your page.

John Jantsch (10:49.998)

Yeah, sure.

Bruce Clay (11:10.997)

and the fact that you only have one of them. And so you gotta build a hierarchy, you gotta understand architecture, gotta understand how to build it. And now along comes AI. And I can generate a thousand pages a day. And I mean, it’s crazy because those pages are terrible.

John Jantsch (11:32.826)

So let’s talk a little bit about, mentioned the word quality and I think everybody gets that. It’s like that phrase, quality over quantity, everybody gets that fundamentally, how do you, what does quality mean? I know Google tries to give like the EAT guidelines and things like that, but like how should somebody who’s trying to promote their business go about thinking about creating a quality page or quality content?

Bruce Clay (11:57.957)

think that, well, you would look at the Google Quality Rater Guidelines. It’s 160 pages. And you would go through that. And Google does a moderately good job of defining quality. That’s where they’ve defined the EEAT definitions and things like that. However, Google.

also has usability, which isn’t really well defined anywhere. I mean, what makes a page useful? I mean, little things that a site wouldn’t do are usability factors. For instance, do I have jump links at the top of the page? That’s clearly a usability factor. It’s not so much an SEO factor. Do I have breadcrumbs? Clearly a usability factor.

Do I have search on the page? A usability factor, right? Are my links easily seen? A usability factor. And all of those things are also part of what causes you to rank. And I can look at my keywords and do I have them in the right tags and am I running a schema and do I define things correctly?

but that has little to do with is it usable? I mean, okay, I have the keyword in there too many times. I’m a spammer, but that isn’t usable, right? It doesn’t affect usability and usability is an external factor now. So sites that used to rank number one and vanish, that page isn’t less content-wise, less valuable. It’s a

John Jantsch (13:40.077)

Yeah.

Bruce Clay (13:53.817)

The standards have changed. And now usability is a big factor. AI. When AI came out, and I want to mention this, AI came out and originally Google said it has to be human created. Then they changed it. Actual on their website, they changed it to where it has to be useful to humans. Right? Which is a good factor. I think it’s great.

John Jantsch (13:55.331)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:17.474)

Yeah.

Bruce Clay (14:23.609)

However, it was interpreted that AI is okay. And our tests show that if we have a bunch of pages, AI will always be last among equals.

And Google has now got a statement out that says, what we expect of your page is that it is consistent with common knowledge and creates new knowledge. Right? They sound a little diametrically opposed, but, and it’s because the LLM is built based upon common knowledge and consensus. But

John Jantsch (14:55.448)

Yeah.

Bruce Clay (15:06.015)

they’re expecting the human touch to be, and this is my creativity component. And how it’s going to work in the future is something else. But those factors, other than just usability, affect how you rank.

John Jantsch (15:23.63)

So you mentioned earlier the idea of the original Google home screen had the 10 links and nothing else on it. Well, now it’s a shopping mall, right? It’s got all kinds of ads on it. It’s got things for like local, for maps. It’s got organic stuff. It’s got the AI overview. So a lot of people today are screaming about this whole zero click thing is the end of SEO. I’m curious where you stand on that sort of extreme.

mentality.

Bruce Clay (15:54.681)

Well, yeah, that is somewhat extreme because, and wrong. If you want to rank in social, you participate in social and you have your followers. If you want to rank in organic, you qualify based upon the SEO components that allow you to rank in organic. If you want to rank in AI, right, it isn’t

really so much the social component about who you are. And it isn’t the SEO component about who you are. When a consensus is built, individuals are lost. It’s collective information, right? The problem is that the LLM doesn’t go out and spy their websites and chase links or worry about canonicals or

care about your schemas. What it does is it gathers all this information, puts it into an LLM. Now it keeps track of sites, but it’s really consensus information. If you look at search for chat GPT, in order to qualify to be in their search results, they rely on Bing to have previously said,

You’re a trusted site.

John Jantsch (17:24.226)

Right.

Bruce Clay (17:26.549)

AIO requires that Google has you near the top of the results so that they know you’re not a spammer, you’re a trusted site. And then those trusted sites are aggregated to form their results. So the LLM really has the search component as a filter. And that means that you still have to do SEO.

John Jantsch (17:35.928)

Right.

John Jantsch (17:48.972)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so if I can maybe summarize that a little bit, your, keywords or keyword phrases that you’re ranking for today, highly, probably makes it more likely that you’re going to start seeing some chat GPT traffic, for example, for, for, for similar searches. Yeah.

Bruce Clay (18:08.453)

You could very well. Right, now the chat, using chat GPT or AIO, either one, they’re question-based. They’re typically information rather than transactional. And we have written a lot of tools. We have a product called Prerider. And what it does is it analyzes the intent of the page.

And then the intent of the competition and matches them. Right. So you find that intent is important. All this stuff is very, important. But what triggers all that, and this is a very complex world, what triggers it is, is it a question, a how question? And about 16 % of all searches in the Google world are how.

John Jantsch (18:45.72)

Yeah, sure.

Bruce Clay (19:07.663)

So that’s what triggers the AIO. That means that my website has to answer questions. It means that my website to be an AIO has to have an informational bias, right? Transactional sites are harder to have an AIO even show up. So information, how do I do this type query?

John Jantsch (19:29.89)

Yeah.

Bruce Clay (19:37.059)

That is really the trigger. So I have to have a website that qualifies for the question being asked of the chat world.

John Jantsch (19:47.608)

Yeah, sure. Yep. So I’ve got one final question. You’re on this podcast and I’ve always on top of hosting a podcast, actually also am part owner in a podcast booking service. We book a lot of our clients on those and I tell people all the time that being a guest on a podcast is a great, well,

You get exposure, you get content, you get backlinks. I’m curious how you think about, know, cause we, we went through that period where everybody did guest blogging and that stuff just got buried. And I’ve really trying to preach people guest podcasting. So I’m curious your take on that. Do you see that as a strong SEO play still?

Bruce Clay (20:33.677)

I think that podcasts are a massive play. Now, so I’ll come up with the next level. It turns out that since AI is all question-based and because they are not doing searches and establishing all this stuff, they’re relying on the search engines.

mentions are really important. And I think that podcasts are one of the best PR components that there is right now. I’m on a podcast. I believe the podcasts are going to be massive. They are exactly what the doctor ordered in order to get what’s referred to as mentions.

John Jantsch (21:04.174)

Yeah, yep.

John Jantsch (21:18.274)

Right.

Bruce Clay (21:30.245)

And I think that in the AI world, the brand mention is, is dominant. Rand Fishkin just did a session that I watched and he emphasized that a lot of his traffic is from brand mentions of his name associated with certain words and it causes him to get traffic. And I think that.

John Jantsch (21:50.542)

Yep. Yeah.

Bruce Clay (21:59.311)

There’s a lot of people who are concerned about with AIO, you might get less traffic from organic results. I also believe that podcasts and YouTube and all these other mechanisms out there are very, important. And you have to be there. If you’re not there in a year from now, you’re going to be really sad.

John Jantsch (22:23.694)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:29.1)

Yeah, you’re speaking my language. Well, Bruce, I appreciate you taking a moment to drop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to find out more about your work and connect with you?

Bruce Clay (22:41.199)

Well, my website, as I said, I’m a consultant, right? brucoclay.com. It was rather nice and easy to get at the time. brucoclay.com. And then I have other websites that link from there. seotraining.com, seotools.com. Great names, right? And Free Rider, I’ve got others, but brucoclay.com is the best way to reach me.

John Jantsch (22:44.49)

Right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:50.432)

Sure, man.

John Jantsch (22:59.776)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Awesome. Well, I appreciate that. I did the same thing. I started my company was Jantz Communications, consulting, right? Before I went to Duct Tape Marketing. So I get it. Again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Bruce Clay (23:19.159)

Okay, great, thank you.

How Small Businesses Win on Reddit in 2025

How Small Businesses Win on Reddit in 2025 written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Jim Squires

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Jim Squires, Executive Vice President of Business Marketing and Growth at Reddit. We explored how small businesses and marketing agencies can tap into Reddit’s communities to build authentic engagement, run effective Reddit Ads, and grow their brands through community-based marketing. Whether you’re looking for tips on Reddit organic engagement or want to maximize Reddit advertising for your business, Jim shared actionable strategies every small business owner and digital marketer should know.

During our conversation, Jim highlighted how Reddit marketing strategies differ from traditional social media marketing. With over 100,000 active Reddit communities, businesses can reach highly engaged, niche audiences in ways that simply aren’t possible on other platforms. From interest-based targeting to upvote/downvote dynamics that prioritize authentic content, Reddit for businesses offers a unique opportunity to build community trust while driving both awareness and conversions.

Key Takeaways:

Reddit is a community-driven platform where users gather around shared passions and interests, creating valuable opportunities for niche marketing strategies and online community marketing.
Unlike traditional social platforms, Reddit’s upvote/downvote system ensures the most helpful and engaging content rises to the top, rewarding brands that embrace authentic brand voice and transparency.
Small businesses can launch targeted campaigns quickly using Reddit Ads, benefiting from interest-based targeting that puts their message in front of the right communities without needing large budgets.
Reddit Pro, a free tool, helps businesses monitor trending conversations, track competitor mentions, and identify new content strategies through the Reddit trends tool.
Combining paid Reddit advertising with organic Reddit engagement allows businesses to build community trust while driving both brand awareness and sales.
For marketing agencies, Reddit offers unique reach into hard-to-access communities, especially for B2B marketing and localized small business marketing.
Successful brands on Reddit embrace transparency, engage directly with users through formats like AMAs, and avoid overly polished or sales-driven messaging, which is heavily discouraged by community self-promotion rules.
As online conversations and trust become critical to customer decision-making, Reddit offers small businesses a chance to be part of the dialogue in a way that builds long-term credibility and customer loyalty.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Jim Squires
[00:56] How Does Reddit Differ From Other Platforms?
[04:20] Impact of Search on Reddit
[05:54] Best Practices for Businesses on Reddit
[08:17] How Does Advertising Fit in on Reddit
[10:52] Getting Organic Reach on Reddit
[13:05] Small Business Mistakes on Reddit
[15:47] How to Measure Success on Reddit
[18:34] Meeting People Where They Are

More About Jim Squires:

Check out Jim Squires’ Website
Connect with Jim Squires on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.981)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Jim Squires. He’s a Reddit’s EVP of business marketing and growth. He oversees the strategy and expansion behind Reddit’s marketing efforts as they relate to our growing advertiser base. So their growing advertiser base is probably what I should have said. Jim, welcome to the show.

Jim Squires (00:23.662)

Hi John, it’s great to be here.

John Jantsch (00:25.437)

So I told you off air that I had Alexis on the show about five or six years ago. He’s no longer involved at all, In Reddit, Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let’s talk a little bit about, you know, I think Reddit has started to get lumped into social platforms. I’m not sure that’s where they started. It certainly has its own.

Jim Squires (00:35.975)

Correct. Yep. Steve Hoffman is our CEO and founder actually from the very beginning.

John Jantsch (00:53.579)

personality, I guess, if you will. So talk a little bit about how the unique culture at Reddit on the platform kind of differ, is different from say LinkedIn and Facebook and some other social platforms.

Jim Squires (00:59.97)

Yep.

Jim Squires (01:05.176)

Yeah, yeah, it is unique. It’s a very different platform. It is, I describe it as a community of communities. And so you’ve got a hundred thousand plus active communities, everything from gaming to gardening, tech to travel, investing to interior design, really anything that you can think of is on there. And so people organize around their interests and their passions.

And it’s very different from other platforms in the sense that even the dynamics, there’s not likes on the platform. There’s up votes and down votes, which means that only the really universally valuable, interesting things float up and get distribution. The stuff that’s really divisive or controversial gets a lot of up votes and down votes and then never gets anywhere. So it feels very different. It’s anonymous. So people use pseudonyms on the platforms. And so there’s a lot of different dimensions, but the biggest thing

John Jantsch (01:38.923)

Yeah, right.

Jim Squires (02:02.318)

to think about is those communities and the passion and how people organize around that.

John Jantsch (02:05.525)

Yes.

Yeah, and really niche, right? mean, like subreddit, subreddit, subreddit of, you know, a very small community, right? But the people that are in that community are not just casual passerbys. I mean, they are like totally into it,

Jim Squires (02:21.838)

Yeah, yeah. I you have massive communities. There’s communities like be amazed or which car should I buy that have millions of people in them. And then to your point, you can go super niche and super deep into specific categories as well. So it really runs across the board.

John Jantsch (02:33.953)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:41.825)

So in terms of communication, engagement, participation, how would you say, you know, there in the early days, particularly, there was kind of this vibe of like behave here and be a good citizen or, know, you’ll get kicked out kind of thing, as opposed to say, I don’t know, all comers on Twitter or something, you know, might’ve been. So I’m sure as Reddit has grown, you know, some of that’s probably gone away, but would you say that that, that sort of DNA still exists? Yeah.

Jim Squires (03:10.218)

It definitely does. It is a, part of what I was describing before with this up vote, down vote dynamic that keeps bad behavior from bubbling over because it just, you’re just not rewarded for doing anything in that, in that area. You’ve got moderators for each of the communities that have their, their own rules and they govern how that community is going to, to engage. so,

John Jantsch (03:24.107)

Yeah, yeah.

Jim Squires (03:35.822)

between the rules of engagement and knowing that if you’re going to step out of line or behave poorly, one, no one’s gonna probably see it, and two, the moderator might ban you or take you out of that community. So it really keeps things positive and helpful for people.

John Jantsch (03:47.445)

Yeah, and-

John Jantsch (03:52.85)

And, poorly is not just calling people names. mean, it’s self-promotion too, right?

Jim Squires (03:57.294)

That’s exactly right. People, and this is great advice for small businesses as well, is people don’t, which is not unlike anywhere, even in our personal lives, they don’t like to be marketed to. They want to be spoken to. They know there’s humans behind these businesses and the more you can show that humanity of the business and engage with people in a way that doesn’t feel like you’re just being salesy or too overly polished, that resonates really well, especially on Reddit.

John Jantsch (04:07.809)

That’s right.

John Jantsch (04:25.451)

Yeah. So one of the things that it’s probably been going on longer, but certainly has been very noticeable maybe for the last three years is that, you know, Reddit used, it feels like Reddit used to exist in its own universe. And now you can’t do a Google search that doesn’t usually turn up some Reddit conversations. So how has that changed the dynamic of the platform?

Jim Squires (04:45.772)

Great. Yeah.

It has, mean, it’s interesting because Reddit’s been around for 20 years doing its thing. And there actually is just this rich repository of all these conversations that have happened over 20 years. But it really has become even more important and it’s having a cultural moment right now because, and my view on this is because there’s so much AI-generated content and search, AI-generated search results pages and

John Jantsch (05:09.013)

Yeah.

Jim Squires (05:18.616)

People have grown tired of paid influencers. They see through that and they’re much more savvy on being sold to. And so there really is this desire to have a more authentic connection, really hear from people, hear their real opinions about things. And so many people, to your point, they come in through a search. they’re looking for, they’re going camping and they’re getting into camping. Gear is a really big part of any hobby and passion that you have.

John Jantsch (05:46.849)

Yeah, yeah.

Jim Squires (05:48.268)

looking for something in particular, Reddit pops up in the search results and then they find themselves now in these conversations. So a lot of people discover Reddit through search and then they stay for the community because they realize, wow, there’s so much more here beyond just that camping gear I was just looking for.

John Jantsch (06:04.651)

Yeah. So, however, commerce is happening, right? on Reddit. So, so let’s talk a little bit about, if I’m in a small business and I thought, I’m playing on all these other platforms. How can I get into Reddit? Or if I’m an agency and I’m thinking, you know, how do I bring my clients, and get value out of Reddit? You know, I’m sure it depends on the business and the niche and what your goals are.

Jim Squires (06:10.188)

Right, it is, definitely.

John Jantsch (06:29.877)

But in general, is there kind of a best practice approach to get yourself up and going on Reddit?

Jim Squires (06:37.004)

Yep. I we keep it really simple and it’s relevant for really whatever category you’re in or whatever business that you’re running. There is a really easy to use ads interface. is the easiest way to, you small businesses don’t typically have a lot of time. They want to get to results and find new customers quickly. And so we make it easy to through ads, just quickly get distribution. And so you can take, you know, if you’re running advertising on another platform,

make it really easy to import that campaign over. You can use the AI tools to automate things and just get it going really quickly. And really, just with a few hundred dollars, you can start seeing progress and seeing and getting new customers. In fact, we should throw it in the notes, but we have for duct tape marketing listeners, we’ve got a promo code, duct tape 500 that they can use to get started on ads if they want to. But I recommend that’s just the easiest way to dip your toe in is just get

ads going and I can talk more about tactically how that works. And then the other thing I want to call out is we have a free set of tools to also get going. And so we call it Reddit Pro. And through Reddit Pro, you can get your official presence on Reddit, so your official profile, and you can start actually seeing trends. So what are people saying about your business, your competitors? What are people talking about in your category? What’s trending? What’s interesting?

John Jantsch (07:36.683)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:58.497)

Hmm.

Jim Squires (08:02.67)

and then actually shows you which of those communities you can go into and learn more. And you can even start engaging as the official business. People love to hear from businesses when they’re authentic and they’re talking as humans and getting some inside tracks. That’s the other thing you can do.

John Jantsch (08:13.974)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Serving and solving problems, right? So, so let’s, I want to get back to organic in a minute, but let’s touch on the advertising again. You said it’s duct tape 500. that’s D U C T T A P E 500. And if you spend 500, you’re going to get 500. So that’s kind of the way that deal works. How does advertising, I know some platforms that were traditionally very organic and then figured out, we got to make money.

Jim Squires (08:19.812)

I like that, yes, well said.

Jim Squires (08:34.562)

That’s right. That’s right.

John Jantsch (08:45.069)

we’re going to sell ads. The ads, they struggle with how do we get those in? How are people going to view those? And obviously an ad is a call to action quite often, by now kind of thing. So how does that fit in culturally?

Jim Squires (08:57.742)

Mm-hmm.

Jim Squires (09:03.406)

Well, it’s interesting. We took the reverse approach. So we started with ads before the organic. And so people got used to it pretty quickly as far as how it fits in. mean, a big part of it is kind of thinking about what communities are going to be most relevant to you. And we made that really easy as well. So for example, health and well-being, there’s lots of communities in that realm. So everything from

John Jantsch (09:09.387)

Okay.

Jim Squires (09:32.142)

The communities are always structured r slash. So r slash get motivated, r slash weight loss, r slash fitness. These are all in that health and wellness category. But as a small business, you don’t have time to go through and try to figure out which of these communities is going to be relevant to you. So you can just tag health as a interest category that you think is relevant for your products. And then the ad system will go out and pull all the relevant

communities that might be of interest and the people that are in those communities, it’s anonymous, so that you can then get your ad in front of them either in those communities or when they’re in their feed or they’re in some other community on the site. So it’s a really easy way to get into those interests and then your product is gonna be very relevant for those individuals because they’ve expressed interest in that area.

John Jantsch (10:26.155)

So let’s say I want to do a combination. I want to actually build an organic presence as well as doing some advertising. What’s a, you know, it’s probably not an overnight solution, but what is, what’s a kind of best practices approach for getting some organic reach on?

Jim Squires (10:43.82)

Yeah, yeah. Well, you would want to set up your official profile. So you get that. This is now my business on Reddit. So people know that you’re the official voice of that business. And you really want to start. We just released a new product called Trends that’s free as part of Reddit Pro. And I always suggest just quickly jumping in. can actually specify.

John Jantsch (10:48.289)

Right,

Jim Squires (11:09.966)

keywords that you think are interesting or related to your business. And you can start seeing through your category what might be trending, what are people talking about? Are people talking about my business? Are they talking about my competitors’ businesses? What are they saying? And that gives you an entree into, okay, do I want to engage yet? Or I just want to kind of check things out and see what the tone is and see what’s happening there. Now the businesses that really…

elevate and do really well are actually they start engaging and they start interacting with the community and people really appreciate. We talked earlier about showing the humanity of the business. They appreciate transparency. So having the good and the bad, it’s being, it’s, you know, talking about things that maybe not aren’t perfect, gets you a lot of credibility in a community and across Reddit. There is a

a business that’s on Reddit that sells diaper bags, like travel diaper bags. It’s called the No Reception Club. And they jumped on there and they’re running ads. They also have an organic presence. And people were commenting that the bags were too expensive. They had really high price point. And so instead of just kind of withering away or not addressing that,

John Jantsch (12:11.233)

Yeah.

Jim Squires (12:31.256)

they hit a head on and started talking about why it’s a high price point because of all these features, the quality, they’ve got a lifetime warranty and that built so much credibility with people in those communities and went over a lot of people that were saying, I see, they actually engage in me and explained what is going on and that just gives you a lot of points.

John Jantsch (12:52.479)

Yeah, sure. So what are some of the challenges you’ve seen or maybe we could even say mistakes you’ve seen small businesses make, you know, really trying to engage on Reddit.

Jim Squires (13:03.778)

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, kind of the mistakes that get made relate to what we were just talking about. So you cut you come in and you can imagine like, like as humans, we don’t walk into a meeting or walk into a party and just start shouting about ourself. You you you ease your way in. You start talking. You get you get a feel for the vibe and what’s happening. And then you can talk about yourself and what you’re doing. And so the brands that that would show up or businesses that show up and and we coach on this so it doesn’t happen.

very often, but if you show up and you are just just shouting with salesy messaging and and not being authentic and engaging that way, it’s a you’re not going to get shouted away. I you can show up with ads. People are used to ads and they’re not going to, know, you can turn off comments and not really worry about it that much. But again, as we were saying before, if you really want to elevate, you really want to have success in the platform. Being aware of that, even turning comments on.

because you want to hear from people and you want to understand your customers, that’s kind where you elevate to the next level.

John Jantsch (14:08.289)

Ken, is there a type of content that performs questions, behind the scenes insights, educational posts, AMAs? mean, is there a certain type that you think performs better?

Jim Squires (14:17.486)

Yeah, that’s a great question.

I love that. It’s not one specific type, but I like where you’re going. The angle on this is, within the different formats, what type of content might resonate. And I would say that, in general, that transparency and being willing to engage always does well. So the AMA is a perfect example of that. There was actually Oatly, the oat milk brand. I love they did an AMA and they invited

Big dairy, know, big dairy businesses to come co-host with them and talk about climate footprint labeling. No one from Big Dairy showed up on that and took them up on it. Well, that small dairy showed up and there was a Scottish dairy farmer that showed up and actually engaged and talked through and they had a really good dialogue. So that type of content does well. Behind the scenes content is really, really good. I mean, you can imagine a microbrewery

John Jantsch (14:53.131)

Yeah, yeah.

Jim Squires (15:19.778)

taking you behind the scenes on how they brew their IPAs and people really want to geek out on that. They want to see the technical aspects of it, understand what’s behind the scenes. And what it does is it shows when you show, because we all, with each of our businesses, we have a passion for what we’re doing. That’s why we started that business. And so when you show that enthusiasm, that passion and that craft, these people in the communities, they have the same passion. And so it really resonates with them.

John Jantsch (15:28.715)

Yes.

Jim Squires (15:48.396)

and then they want to lean in and they want to learn more about

John Jantsch (15:52.363)

So imagine the CEO sitting around saying, okay, my agency says I need to be on Reddit. How do I know if I’m getting any return on being there? What type of reporting, what type of measurement is available for somebody to know? Am I having success?

Jim Squires (16:02.359)

Yeah.

Jim Squires (16:09.57)

Yep, yep. mean, that’s, that is the key. What am I, what have I accomplished here? So Reddit is a, it is, it’s multi objective. So it really, it really goes from, you know, top of the funnel reach all the way down to driving sales with what you’re trying to do. And so it depends on where you’re at in your life cycle and kind of what you’re trying to achieve. But I think about on the, discovery side, so people are showing up and they’re really open minded. They want to discover new products and services.

I do look at the overall reach that you’re getting inside of these different communities and try to understand that. I think for most small businesses, they want to move faster and they want to just get new customers. And so then I suggest looking at the traffic that is coming off of your advertising and your organic presence. You can measure that directly and see what traffic you’re getting. And then ultimately, I look at the conversions and the new customers.

that you’ve converted and the purchases that you can drive. So as part of the reporting, you have access to all of that to go to instrument it. And then based on your campaign, what you’re trying to achieve, that’s actually the key thing is a lot of times businesses show up and they haven’t crystallized. What am I actually trying to do with this campaign and making sure the creative ties to that? But having that really clear and then looking at the appropriate stats for that is really what I recommend.

John Jantsch (17:22.879)

Yeah, yeah, Right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:33.835)

So you mentioned the word creative. Is there a form of creative, you know, maybe that’s a little more tongue in cheek, a little more, or a little more cynical or, you know, just rather than just the traditional, we’re the best, bye from us.

Jim Squires (17:46.382)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there’s lots of memes on Reddit, definitely. You can play into that, and some brands really do that. My advice on the creative is not unlike advice you would give a friend is be yourself on this. And so if you are a really tongue in cheek, kind of clever brand, then that should come out in your creative. If you’re not, and you’re doing

John Jantsch (17:50.093)

Right.

John Jantsch (18:01.695)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jim Squires (18:12.858)

You know, B2B is huge on the platform. And so if you’re doing some, somebody’s B2B, that’s more serious and that you feel like that’s actually not your thing. you don’t want to show up on Reddit and then start doing that. Cause that stands out as well. So I always like to have the, what, what, what are you as a brand? What do you stand for? What are you trying to communicate? And then have that tie in versus trying to, change yourself, to try to fit in or, or feel like it’s reddity or something that’s, that’s, that’s going to fit in there.

John Jantsch (18:35.904)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it’s probably no, no faster way to fail than to try to be something you’re not right. Right. So one of the things that we’ve seen over the last couple of years, you know, ties into AI ties into zero click, you know, searches, now is that, advice we’re giving people is like it or not. You’ve probably got to be a few more places where people are choosing to get their information and hang out.

Jim Squires (18:44.866)

That’s right. As people in life or on platforms. Yes, exactly.

John Jantsch (19:08.737)

And it’s not always search engines. How have you seen that impact Reddit or have you? guess I should ask first. Yeah.

Jim Squires (19:09.005)

Yeah.

Jim Squires (19:13.186)

Yeah, mean, it’s absolutely it’s a great it’s a great point. mean, there is a one one thing that is interesting about Reddit is that it has a lot of unduplicated reach. So people that are on Reddit that are on Facebook or Instagram or other other places. And so that is that’s counterintuitive because these other platforms are so big. But there actually are a lot of people that are on those other platforms. So being able

John Jantsch (19:38.581)

Well, and I suspect trust has a lot to do with it.

Jim Squires (19:42.562)

Yes, what they look at, that’s a great point. mean, people, it’s anonymous as we talked about before, people are sharing their unvarnished real opinions. And so people trust that because they’re enthusiastic. Yeah. So I think that ability to get to customers that you can’t get to on other platforms is something really to consider and think about when you’re looking at it.

John Jantsch (19:43.553)

Or lack thereof. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:08.651)

Yes.

Jim Squires (20:08.812)

And so, yeah, so I think it does, that’s one of the things on why you would want to branch out. The other reason is that you have on all the different platforms, people are in different mindsets and they’re doing different things, which really affects what they may want to be purchasing or the decisions they may want to be making. So for example, on most platforms, targeting based on demo is really the standard.

John Jantsch (20:38.079)

Yeah.

Jim Squires (20:38.274)

If you were targeting me on another platform, you’re going to know that I live in San Francisco. I’m in my forties. you may know, you may know where I work. You know, there’s like certain things that you know about, about me. Well, you wouldn’t know that, know, on Reddit is that I’m really into mountain biking and that I’m in the market right now to get a, a, a heavy duty, bike rack for my car that can hold four bikes. Cause I want to have my kids and my wife be able to go with, with me.

John Jantsch (20:50.315)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:55.477)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:06.241)

Mmm… Yeah.

Jim Squires (21:08.002)

and that it can go long distances up into the mountains. You wouldn’t know that on another platform. And so that’s the different dimension. And so as a business, you wanna be where your customers are and you wanna be where they are making purchase decisions. We always say that conversations drive decisions. And so people are making those decisions through the process. That’s what I encourage.

John Jantsch (21:21.835)

Yes.

John Jantsch (21:27.553)

Yeah. And I certainly notice a lot of, anybody got advice on, know, kind of post, which is pretty high buyer intent, right? Um, yeah. So by the way, the Thule hitch rack, I swear by it. That’s the way I would go. That’s the way I have gone. and, and, and so now, now we need to talk about your, your, your setup on your bike. Uh, I’m a, I’m a Santa Cruz guy myself. Okay. Awesome.

Jim Squires (21:34.318)

That’s right.

Jim Squires (21:39.162)

Is that the way to go? Okay. Okay, that’s enough. I’m down to three right now.

Jim Squires (21:50.401)

I’m a Santa Cruz guy also, so I’ll get to 50-10, yes.

John Jantsch (21:54.461)

Awesome. There’s probably a Santa Cruz subreddit or at least a mountain bike subreddit.

Jim Squires (21:57.806)

They’re 100 % there. I was going to ask you, do you spend time on Reddit? How much do you spend phone?

John Jantsch (22:02.825)

Yeah, we have the, have, we do a lot of training of fractional CMOs and marketing consultants and agencies. So we participate in a few of those conversations for sure. Yeah.

Jim Squires (22:13.966)

Okay, there’s a lot of great small business communities, small business marketers. And so you can kind of as business use it in multiple ways. You’re using it to get to your customers and potential customers. And then you’re also using it for your own benefit for advice and understanding how to run your business along with other small business owners.

John Jantsch (22:35.391)

Yeah. And I mentioned that’s actually a pretty, pretty good way to start getting engaged is go in there and just start asking questions, right? mean, of stuff you truly want to know, that probably is going to create some engagement all on its own. Cause people love to give answers. Yeah.

Jim Squires (22:41.806)

Yep, definitely.

Jim Squires (22:48.774)

That’s exactly right. There’s nothing when you, and I also encourage people to say, people to when they start using it, when you do that first post and people start up voting it and you get literally karma points, that’s what we call it. So it shows you feel like, wow, I just added something of value to the universe. I’m getting these karma points. It feels really good. It’s like you’re contributing to this community. It’s a nice feeling.

John Jantsch (23:06.261)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, Jim, I want to thank you for something by the duct tape marketing podcast. is there someplace you invite people to connect with you? Obviously we’ve been talking about Reddit, reddit.com. we got a special for you listeners, a duct tape 500 to get some ad spend. Is there anywhere else you’d want people to connect with you?

Jim Squires (23:30.382)

We have a young on on Reddit, of course, I’m Jim at reddit.com. I’m happy to connect with people and and yeah, just it’s great great being here I’m a fan of the the podcast and love what what you do with small businesses. So thank you for having me

John Jantsch (23:47.381)

Thanks so much again. Hopefully we’ll run into you. I’ve got a daughter that lives out in the Bay area, so maybe we’ll run into you one of these days out on the road. Awesome. Take care. Thanks.

Jim Squires (23:53.666)

I would love that. I would love that. Thanks, John. Take care. Bye-bye.

The Zero-Click Internet: What It Means for Your Marketing Strategy

The Zero-Click Internet: What It Means for Your Marketing Strategy written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Rand Fishkin

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Rand Fishkin, co-founder and CEO of SparkToro, an audience research software company. Rand is a well-known expert in search engine optimization (SEO) and digital marketing, with deep insights into the evolving landscape of Google search and the rise of the zero-click internet.

During our conversation, Rand explained how zero-click searches—where users find answers directly on Google without clicking on external links—are reshaping SEO strategy, content marketing, and online visibility. With 60% of searches now ending without a click, businesses must rethink their marketing strategy to reach audiences where they already engage—whether on social media, Google’s own properties, or other digital platforms.

Rand’s insights emphasize the need for marketers to adapt to zero-click trends, build a presence across multiple channels, and rethink traditional SEO trends to succeed in today’s digital landscape.

Key Takeaways:

Zero-click searches are growing – 60% of Google searches now end without a click, changing how businesses gain online traffic.
SEO strategy must evolve – Instead of chasing organic traffic, brands should focus on influencing audiences where they are—on social platforms, communities, and third-party sites.
Google’s algorithm prioritizes engagement – Google is keeping more users within its ecosystem, using featured snippets, AI-generated answers, and instant results.
Content marketing needs a shift – Creating content that thrives on Google, social media, and other platforms without requiring clicks is the new game.
Online marketing is more than traffic – Success is about brand visibility, trust, and engagement rather than just website visits.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Rand Fishkin
[01:07] What is Zero Click?
[02:11] How Has Zero Click Impacted Search
[06:33] How Should SEO Professionals Adapt?
[08:34] How Do Content-Reliant Businesses Survive?
[14:30] Is Google Dead?
[16:50] Making the Best of Attribution

More About Rand Fishkin:

Check out Rand Fishkin’s Website
Connect with Rand Fishkin on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.972)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Rand Fishkin. He’s a co-founder and CEO of Spark Toro, an audience research software company and indie game developer at Snack Bar Studio. We probably ought to talk about indie games, Passionate about helping marketers, he shares insights through writing speaking and his book Lost and Founder, previously co-founded Moz and inbound.org and co-authored the Art of SEO.

He’s going to talk about, we are going to talk today about zero click. something that I said off air, you were probably getting tired of talking about, but still a lot of people want to hear about. Welcome to

Rand Fishkin (00:43.672)

Great to be here, John. No, I don’t think people are tired of talking about zero click. I think there’s a lot of people who, don’t totally know what it is and B, are feeling the effects of it, even if they’re not super into the tactical and strategic world of zero click.

John Jantsch (00:54.092)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:00.216)

So having said that, maybe we ought to define that’s what we’re talking about, right? And maybe even talk about, mean, you’ve been following Google for, I don’t know, since Google was born, right? So, you know, when did it start showing up?

Rand Fishkin (01:13.356)

Yeah. So, the term I believe was coined by initially Gabriel Weinberg at DuckDuckGo. That was the first instance I could find of it. In 2011, Gabriel described Google as having these zero click searches and zero click answers. So this is the first sort of appearance of a zero click concept in the marketing world. And a few years later, I did a study, with Jumpshot, which was, which is a now defunct

clickstream data provider. And JumpShot worked with me to see what percent of all Google searches ended without a click. Essentially, they stayed inside Google’s ecosystem either by opening up the Google Maps app or getting their answer right at the top of the results through those instant answers or featured snippets or now AI overviews.

John Jantsch (02:04.896)

Right, right, right. So, I guess maybe you’re going to say it. The zero click meaning that somebody goes and they don’t go away. They get their answer and they don’t leave Google, right? Zero.

Rand Fishkin (02:15.918)

So that, yeah, and that was the initial idea of like, oh, there’s these zero click searches and search marketing might be changing as a result. And maybe we should think about rather than trying to get traffic, simply provide the answer to the searcher, right? To the user. In 2019, Google answered just under half of all searches without a click. like 49 % or something. Fast forward to last year, I just did this study again with Datos.

John Jantsch (02:26.253)

Yeah.

Rand Fishkin (02:45.07)

And that number is now 60%. So 60 % of searches are answered without a click, which as a user is super convenient. And as a publisher is terrifying.

John Jantsch (02:57.026)

Well, that goes to a point. mean, there are some that are saying this is an evil plot by Google, but really it’s like behavior, right? I mean, it’s like, this is what the user wants. I know as somebody who’s trying to get a quick, I want to know what time the ball game starts. You know, I don’t need to go to ESPN’s website, right? And read the history of football before I get the time, right?

Rand Fishkin (03:17.326)

That’s exactly right. If you want to know how old Paul Rudd is, or you want to see which channel you can watch SNL 50 on, or you’re trying to figure out what are the ingredients in Moroccan spices, you know what? Google can just answer those things for you, and it is incredibly convenient. So zero-click searches started with Google, but they did not end there. Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Reddit.

YouTube, TikTok, Slack, every single platform realized that they could keep more people on their websites and their platforms if they stopped sending traffic out. And so, Twitter was one of the early adoptees of this. algorithm, this is probably 2016, 17, their algorithm started biasing against links. If you included a link in a tweet, Twitter would limit the reach of that tweet.

John Jantsch (03:47.746)

Tick tock.

John Jantsch (04:00.716)

Yeah.

Rand Fishkin (04:15.542)

Substantially compared to a tweet that did not contain a link that’s true on Facebook as well It’s true on linkedin as well. You can see it in subreddits where moderators and reddit themselves started down voting and and stopping the promotion of Reddit submissions that contained a link youtube started Minimizing the description field so that it would hide any url external url link that would take you off of youtube

John Jantsch (04:40.961)

Ehh.

Rand Fishkin (04:43.31)

So every single platform is doing this over and over. And my colleague, Amanda Natividad, when she joined SparkToro, what was that, 2022, she sort of came up with this idea that zero click is not just about search, it’s about all platforms. The zero click internet is here. And as a result, the only thing to do is to create zero click content and do zero click marketing. Influence people in the places they’re already paying attention

John Jantsch (05:11.52)

Right. Yeah.

Rand Fishkin (05:12.876)

rather than demanding that they come to your platform and requiring traffic to be your only KPI.

John Jantsch (05:18.806)

Yeah. And, you know, lot of the people, the sky is falling, you know, looking at the results. was a pretty, sexy headline that HubSpot had lost 72 % of their traffic or something like that. But can we say that a percentage of that, maybe a large percentage was kind of garbage traffic anyway? I mean, it wasn’t intent traffic. was like, they published a listicle and somebody went to that cause they wanted the list, but they didn’t want anything to do with HubSpot.

Rand Fishkin (05:43.416)

Well, John, I don’t know if you did what I did as soon as I saw that headline, but I went and looked up HubSpot stock price and their latest earnings report. And guess what? Record highs, right? So HubSpot and a whole bunch of other platforms, I did a whole blog post and a video about this. They are indicative of a new trend that zero click marketing is.

John Jantsch (05:47.564)

Heheheh, Potter.

Yeah.

Rand Fishkin (06:11.424)

almost certainly at the head of, is traffic down, revenue up. If your traffic goes down, but your revenue goes up, should you be pissed at your marketing team? Or should you celebrate the fact that they are finding opportunities in a zero click internet world for your message and your influence to reach the right audience and attract the right customers? I think it’s the latter.

John Jantsch (06:34.56)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so you started to hint at what to do now. If you’re especially SEO folks, know, or I mean, they, they’d kind of dialed in the game, right? So now like, what’s the new game? I mean, for SEO folks, if you were advising a group of SEO folks, you know, talking, doing a keynote, you know, what would you be telling them that they need to be doing how they need to be changing their model?

Rand Fishkin (06:55.82)

Yeah, I’m actually, I’m giving a at SMX Munich to a couple thousand people next month. And the topic, John, you’ll like this is called, it’s the end of traffic as we know it. And I feel fine. And the basic premise here is that, look, if you’re an SEO, some of you will have no choice. Your boss, your team, your client.

John Jantsch (07:00.748)

Right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:09.474)

Yeah, great. That’s awesome.

Rand Fishkin (07:20.302)

They’re going to say, I don’t care what Rand Fishkin says. I don’t care what’s going on in Google. I don’t care about zero click marketing. You get me traffic. That’s your job. You know what? Okay. You’re going to have to focus on the few keywords that send traffic and sort of the 40 % of searchers that click and you know, the platforms that still do send some traffic, that kind of thing. But for everyone else, I would urge you to break out of this mindset that everything has to be about SEO, right? That the classic SEO is the only thing that you’re good at.

John Jantsch (07:45.484)

Yeah. Yeah.

Rand Fishkin (07:49.01)

SEOs, at least when I was an SEO, you know, seven years ago now, it was not just about ranking in Google, right? There was lots of things that you’d have to do as part of that. Things around accessibility of your website, sure, but also placement of content on third-party websites and pitching and essentially, yeah, a public relations job, right? It is a PR job. You’re trying to create content and a message that people want to amplify and get that message amplified in the places they pay attention.

John Jantsch (08:06.68)

Authority, yeah, Yep, yep, yep, yep.

Rand Fishkin (08:19.638)

I’m not sure exactly what the industry is going to end up calling that. Maybe they’ll call it PR. Maybe they’ll call it the new form of influencer marketing. Maybe they’ll call it content placement or offsite content marketing. I don’t really care. I don’t care what that’s called. What I do care about is you should do it because it works.

John Jantsch (08:37.974)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think, you you made a point about why everybody’s so fixed on SEO. I think for a lot of SEO folks, it was easy, cheap traffic. And in some cases, easy, cheap conversions and business. And so I think we got lazy. And I think that to me, that was a big part of it. But what about that business that is all about trust and authority? Content was huge for them to drive, you know, folks to their website.

couldn’t buy ads, ads were useless to them. What is that business, like a professional services business? How do they survive in this

Rand Fishkin (09:13.038)

I look, I think whenever I realize my video is getting a little fuzzy and Riverside’s giving me a funny message about that, but my internet’s fast and my device is running fast, so I don’t know. I’m just gonna go and hope that the recording catches it correctly. The reality is when your business model gets disrupted, you either decide to embrace the change that’s coming,

John Jantsch (09:19.426)

Yeah.

Rand Fishkin (09:42.41)

Or you face the consequences. And I think the consequences are not nothing. It’s not all going to die. SEO is going to go away. That’s not what’s happening. It’s just going to become a lower growth rate industry or even a shrinking industry over time as CMOs and CEOs and boards of directors wake up to the fact that the opportunity in organic types of marketing might lie elsewhere, i.e. influencing people in the places where they already play.

John Jantsch (10:10.998)

Yeah. The new sexy term is AIO. How much do we need to pay attention to that?

Rand Fishkin (10:16.878)

it, it varies quite a bit. If you’re in B2B, especially B2B tech and you’re selling to other B2B techies, the answer is you probably need to pay some attention to it. There was a great report from SEM rush, recently where they looked at the clickstream data. like clickstream data a lot. think it really tells the story accurately.

They looked at 80 million different click streams of people who visited and used ChatGPT, and they analyzed what they did with the platform, the prompts that they put in, all that kind of stuff. What I found quite interesting there is 70 % of those prompts had no corollary at Google. So you could not perform the task that was asked of ChatGPT in Google’s ecosystem

John Jantsch (11:05.868)

Hmm.

Rand Fishkin (11:13.55)

outside of Gemini whatsoever, right? This is an AI type of task. It’s like saying how much market share is Microsoft Excel taking from Google search? What? None. Like that’s people are doing different things with that. Chat GPT is taking 30 % away from a search engine, right? Or, or adding it to it, right? Those are, those, those are people who are using it for that replacement thing. But I think the answer here is every single business.

John Jantsch (11:15.948)

Yes.

John Jantsch (11:35.436)

Right, yeah.

Rand Fishkin (11:43.2)

Every sector needs to figure out whether its customers and audience are using large language models and AI tools to perform search like tasks inside their specific ecosystem. you know, not to promote spark Toro, but I, I don’t know of another place you can do this, but you can inside spark Toro. what that’s what we do with clickstream data, right? You can go and you can search for, you know, my audience is science fiction writers or interior designers or.

you know, painters or landscaping professionals, or I want to find people who search for backyard gardens. And, Spartora will then tell you in the AI and tools section, which platforms they’re using and how much more or less than normal. So you could see, for example, I ran a search recently for, people who do custom decking, like for their backyards. They don’t use AI tools very much, right? That’s not, that’s not their goal, but.

John Jantsch (12:34.583)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (12:37.952)

Right, right, right.

Rand Fishkin (12:40.396)

If you look for people who are searching for B2B CRM software, well, yeah, they are using ChakGPT and Gemini and Kaggy and all these different AI tools, much more than average. You probably need to pay attention to large language model optimization.

John Jantsch (12:58.334)

That’s a great, great point. I’ve seen a real divide between the idea of local businesses versus national or B2B, like you mentioned, like that Decker, you know, that you talked about that’s, that’s fixing people’s homes. I mean, he’s probably got people in his geography or he or she that’s looking for them and you know, Google maps and some of those tools are still their friend, right?

Rand Fishkin (13:20.414)

Yeah, absolutely. this, I mean, I don’t know what to tell you, John. Like there’s, there’s still people who just as they did in 1720 or 1950 or 2001, their primary resource for which person am I going to use to build my deck is they ask their neighbor, they ask their friend, right? And that, is a source of influence that is influenceable via different means than, you know,

John Jantsch (13:41.59)

Yep. Yeah.

Rand Fishkin (13:50.072)

highway billboard or a Google search or an AI tool or a social media platform. And so your job as a marketer is to figure out the sources of your audience influence and be present in those places, hopefully commensurate with how much they use them.

John Jantsch (14:07.98)

Yeah. Yeah. And dedicated what limited resources you have to the best ones, right? Now, so another sexy headline is Google’s dead. So is their dominance, you know, is their dominance going to fade? mean, obviously, the cash cow depends on people going to their homepage and clicking on ads instead of getting answers.

Rand Fishkin (14:14.219)

Exactly.

Rand Fishkin (14:20.325)

you

Rand Fishkin (14:32.512)

Yeah. So, it’s funny. I was just asked about this by some reporters. and I don’t like to give opinion based answers here, right? Google’s getting worse. I ran this search and I got a bunch of junk in my results where 10 years ago when I ran this search, I used to get good stuff. I don’t like those types of anecdotal, replies and responses. I don’t trust them. The thing I trust is data at scale. So

What I would look at if I were a reporter trying to answer the question, is Google dying? Is Google getting worse? Is, are there more or less people searching on Google than there were last year at the same time? Are there more or fewer searches per searcher than there were last year at this time? The answer to both of those, according to some research that I hope to publish in the next couple of weeks actually, is no.

Google grew about 10 % in terms of searches per searcher last year, and it grew in terms of number of total searchers last year. You don’t have to believe me, by the way, or Datos’ numbers. If you prefer, you can look at what Sundar Pichay said in the earnings call, the Google earnings call two weeks ago. He said the same thing, and our data bears it out. I don’t always trust Google to tell us the truth, but in this case,

all the data sources agree, if Google is getting worse, then the only logical response is, well, if they’re getting worse, everything else, all the alternatives must be even worse because people are still using them more and more.

John Jantsch (16:10.616)

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think people under or forget, you know, they’re more than just that search box as well. You know, I pay Google a hundred bucks every month to use Gmail and Sheets and Slides and all those kinds of things too. they’re an ecosystem way beyond their ad network.

Rand Fishkin (16:31.244)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But, but I want to be clear, I’m not talking about their earnings report in terms of their dollar, you know, of, of growth. I’m talking about right growth in, in raw searches.

John Jantsch (16:38.38)

Yeah. Just searches, right? Yeah.

Yeah. So another topic that, and this is right up your alley, so I’m inviting you to talk about Spark Toro here, is that attribution is just getting harder and harder. And yet, as I listen to your talk, it’s more important maybe than ever. Like, where are your people hanging out and actually reading stuff and how do you find them? So how do you advise businesses to really kind of arm themselves with better attribution?

Rand Fishkin (17:12.578)

Gosh.

John Jantsch (17:14.168)

Oh, I asked a hard question. like that. Well, that was my entire intent, so I did well.

Rand Fishkin (17:16.416)

Well, here’s the problem, John. You’ve set me up once again to like tee up my own software and I really, try not to. But you know, you know, I don’t like to be self-promotional. Okay. First off, there are, there are several ways to do this. Some of them good, some of them bad. One of the ones that a lot of people use that I really don’t like is they do post-consumer surveys.

John Jantsch (17:30.874)

hahahahah

Rand Fishkin (17:45.998)

So this is, you you just bought this pair of shoes from Nike, Nike sends you an email and they ask you, how did you find us? Or they ask you at the end of the checkout process, you know, how did you learn about these shoes today? What made you buy from us? And people will give answers that are incomplete, often inaccurate. And if you’re a marketer, you’re only ever going to get answers from channels and sources that you already reach. So you will never know.

about the ones that didn’t send you traffic, right? This is a huge bias problem. I cannot recommend enough against asking people where they heard about you and then using that to determine your marketing budget. is just logic. You you have failed logic 101 in college and you’re going to get kicked out of the class.

John Jantsch (18:20.973)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:28.536)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:35.99)

Well, and you’re also going to pay Facebook a lot more money because everybody says they saw your Facebook ad, right?

Rand Fishkin (18:41.006)

It depends on the sector. So we tried this. of my, one of my favorite stories, John, is early in the spark after spark Charles launch, we tried this with one of our customers. We asked them, this is a consumer brand in the food industry. So they like sell a food product. I don’t have permission to mention who they are, but they sell a food product direct to consumers. And we said, Hey, can you try something for us? Would you put these two? think it was like Martha Stewart and I wasn’t Guy Fieri, but it was some other like.

notable food person in the food world. We asked them to put that in their dropdown list of places where people had heard about them. Yeah. Guess what, John? Those people had never mentioned the brand. They had never talked about them. And 30 % of the customers said, yeah, that’s where I heard about you. So just, you you’re getting terrible data, like absolutely terrible data. the, the second one, the one that I do.

John Jantsch (19:09.986)

Food. Foodie. Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:23.01)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:30.168)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rand Fishkin (19:38.072)

quite like is to look at, broadly speaking, if you use a competitive intelligence platform and you can see where traffic is going to your competitors, that can make reasonable sense, right? So similar web is a good resource for that. Obviously, Spark Toro offers that type of data as well from a competitive perspective. I think SEM rush, the folks I mentioned who did that research.

John Jantsch (19:51.32)

Hmm.

John Jantsch (19:55.81)

Yes.

Rand Fishkin (20:05.676)

I think they might have some of that in their platform, but it might be search centric. So be careful. You’re not just getting biased by Google stuff. and then the, you know, the absolute best one, the absolute best way to do this is learn lockpicking, get the home addresses of all your customers break into their houses, steal their own, get the phone unlock code, and then look at everything that they read, browse, watch, subscribe to follow that of course.

John Jantsch (20:25.016)

Yep.

Rand Fishkin (20:33.556)

super illegal, highly unethical. have, I, yeah, that’s right. Yeah. You got a lot of competition for that. but, but the next closest thing is essentially clickstream data, which is, you know, a panel of users and the providers look at every URL that’s visited. And then you can sort of, take a broad group of people and extrapolate what a general population does.

John Jantsch (20:36.066)

Plus, Alexa’s already doing it anyway, so.

Rand Fishkin (21:02.094)

That’s what we do at Spark Toro. so, you if you want to see, you can type in your website or a competitor’s website or a search term that people use in Google or, a descriptor that people use in their buys. And then you can see what websites, what topics, what social media platforms they use more or less than average. and that can, that can be a good way to sort of get a sense of, Hey, you know, lot of our customers are using.

I don’t read it and we’re not there at all. A lot of our customers are on TikTok or LinkedIn or Pinterest or they’re using ChatGPT or they’re using Gemini and we’re not in those places. We should probably be making investments there.

John Jantsch (21:35.702)

Yes.

John Jantsch (21:49.876)

Yeah. Well, Rand, we’re, we’ve run out of time. I appreciate you dropping by. Uh, we’ve mentioned sparktoro.com a couple of times anywhere else that you’d invite people to connect with you and learn more about your work.

Rand Fishkin (22:00.504)

Sure, well, you know, at the start of our chat today, you mentioned Snapbar Studio. So folks are interested in an indie video game where you get to play an Italian chef in the 1960s. You can check that out at snapbarstudio.com. And who isn’t? It’s not live yet, but give us about 18 months, and there’ll be an early access version on Steam.

John Jantsch (22:14.2)

And who isn’t?

John Jantsch (22:24.408)

Awesome, awesome. Again, I appreciate you taking a few moments and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days soon out there on the road.

Rand Fishkin (22:29.838)

Yeah, I look forward to it, John. Take care of yourself. Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (22:32.098)

All right, bye now.

How to Attract Your Ideal Customers with the Right Brand Archetype

How to Attract Your Ideal Customers with the Right Brand Archetype written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Jane McCarthy

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, Sara Nay steps in as host to interview Jane McCarthy, a seasoned brand strategist and author of The Goddess Guide to Branding. Jane specializes in helping female entrepreneurs develop authentic, compelling brand identities through the power of goddess archetypes. Drawing from Carl Jung archetypes, she has created a branding framework that enables businesses to connect emotionally with their audience while maintaining a strong brand positioning.

During their conversation, Jane explained how businesses can use archetypes to craft an engaging brand storytelling strategy, ensuring their messaging resonates deeply with their ideal customers. She highlighted the importance of emotional branding, aligning a business’s core identity with the needs and desires of its audience. By embracing feminine branding strategies, companies can create a unique and relatable business identity that fosters trust and loyalty.

Sara’s discussion with Jane McCarthy provides valuable insights into brand development by blending business branding with powerful storytelling. By identifying the right archetype, businesses can position their brand more effectively, attract their ideal audience, and stand out in the marketplace.

Key Takeaways:

Brand archetypes enhance emotional connection – Using Carl Jung archetypes in branding creates a personality-driven approach that resonates with customers on a deeper level.
The right branding framework builds long-term credibility – A well-defined brand strategy helps businesses maintain consistency and authenticity, which strengthens customer trust.
Feminine branding can differentiate your business – Traditional archetypes often lean toward masculine traits, but embracing goddess archetypes allows brands to cultivate a more diverse and inclusive identity.
Personal branding plays a key role in business branding – Entrepreneurs who align their personal and business brand identities create a stronger, more authentic marketing presence.
Brand evolution should focus on amplifying strengths – Instead of completely rebranding, businesses should refine what customers already love about their brand to maintain loyalty while staying relevant.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Jane McCarthy
[00:44] What are Goddess Archetypes?
[05:37] Identifying your Brand’s Goddess Archetype
[08:56] Using your Archetype to Find the Right Talent
[12:05] Brands That Embody Goddess Archetypes
[16:34] How to Approach Goddess Archetypes
[18:44] Figuring out the Heart of your Brand

More About Jane McCarthy:

Check out Jane McCarthy’s Website

Connect with Jane McCarthy on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Duct Tape Transcript

Sara Nay (00:01.592)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is Sara Nay and today I’m stepping in as host for John Jantsch. And we’re actually doing a ladies takeover of the show because I have Jane McCarthy as my guest. Really excited to talk to you, Jane. Jane is a brand strategist who has worked with clients such as Sweet Tart, Southern California Edison and Pilot Pen. She is the author of the goddess guide to branding.

Helping female entrepreneurs create an abundant and authentic feminine brand. So welcome to the show, Jane.

Jane McCarthy (00:33.144)

Thank you, Sarah, I’m so happy to be here.

Sara Nay (00:36.792)

Well, let’s dive on in. One of the things that I know that you talk about a lot are the concept of goddess archetypes. And so for our listeners today, can you give me an overview as to what are goddess archetypes and how do they relate to brands and in business in general?

Jane McCarthy (00:52.684)

Yeah, so let’s start with archetype. Okay, so many of us are familiar with archetypes from Hollywood movies. Think about the hero of an action film or the outlaw of a Western. The comic who plays that role of giving a little bit of comic relief in a film. We are familiar with these characters. They play

they’re played by different actors, they wear different costumes, but at their essence, it’s a character we know, and that’s what’s considered an archetype. And this concept was developed by Carl Jung, who is one of the famous psychologists, psychoanalysts of the 20th century. And he developed a set of 12 archetypes that can be utilized as like base characters in the human experience. And if you think about,

Star Wars, that was a film that was really based on the knowledge of archetypes from Carl Jung. And in marketing, branding folks started to realize that we can use these characters to create a brand that feels like it has a personality people can actually connect with, a sense of humanity.

And so I, in my career as a brand strategist, and I’ve worked in advertising for over 15 years, have loved using archetypes. And I found that when I get to that central character with a business, we immediately understand the voice. We have a sense of the feel, even the colors and the symbols start to become clear. And so I’ve utilized Carl Jung’s archetypes throughout.

My my journey as as a brand strategist. However, one thing that I noticed is that a lot of those archetypes Tended to toward the masculine. So you have the hero you have the everyman is what it’s called in that system Which is like the guy next door and the explorer and there’s that that’s great but then the more feminine ones were

Jane McCarthy (03:08.556)

the lover and the caregiver. And I thought, wait a second, there are so many variations on the archetypal character from the feminine lens. And that led me to the work of Jean-Chenota Bolin, who is a Jungian analyst. And in the 1980s, she wrote this seminal book called, Goddesses and Every Woman. And she mapped the psyche of women along archetypal lines, utilizing the Greco-Roman goddess system.

Sara Nay (03:11.116)

Hehehe

Jane McCarthy (03:38.624)

and the goddesses. And I thought, this is an amazing source point to bring to branding and to say, let’s look at which goddess energy, if you want a more feminine energy brand, what goddess energy are you? And that’s how I got to the goddess archetypes for branding, which is like Athena, the free, the huntress, or Demeter, the love, the mother, or Maiden Persephone, the goddess of youth and magic and fantasy. And so,

It’s just been really fun to outline these. have eight goddess archetypes that you can utilize to inspire your brand based on this Jungian work.

Sara Nay (04:17.388)

Yeah, that’s great. And so you touch on a few of them, but can you quickly go over what are the eight different architects that you have identified?

Jane McCarthy (04:24.672)

Yeah, so Athena is the goddess of wisdom. She’s very much about education, working within the system to create credibility and legitimacy. She works toward justice. Another example is Hestia the sacred. She was the goddess of the hearth and she’s very much about like light and purity. So I associate her with healing.

And with products that are about wellness and about sacred space and quiet and almost, she’s almost the Zen kind of energy. And then we have Hera. She got a bad rap as being Zeus’s jealous, venomous wife. I think I see her as the regal energy and she’s the goddage of tradition and partnership. She is the queen energy. And…

you know, I rewrote her story a little bit for this book. So those are some examples of the goddesses and how much fun it is to work with mythic archetypes and then think about how that translates into brands today in contemporary life.

Sara Nay (05:40.526)

That’s great. So if someone is listening today and they’re working on their branding and they’re looking for clarity and direction, how would they go about identifying what goddess they might align with as a company?

Jane McCarthy (05:53.164)

Yeah, so if you look at this set of eight archetypes, you’re gonna see that there are dominant gifts that each goddess has. So for example, I mentioned Diana the Free, the goddess of the hunt. So she inspires adventuring, she inspires confidence, she inspires going out beyond the known. And so if you’re a brand that’s about

exploring new territories, then you can look to Diana to inspire you. So it’s a lot about what is the energy that you want to infuse your bandwidth and also the gift that you have. And so then another gift is Venus, the goddess of beauty and pleasure. And so if you’re bringing the energy of like pure joy, recreation,

Playfulness, then you can be a Venus archetype. So it’s thinking about the, you can think about the gifts that you want to bring to your customers through the brand experience. And that will bring you to your archetype, among others. I have a bunch of different exercises, but that’s one.

Sara Nay (07:09.228)

That’s one. It’s interesting to hear you talk through that, especially because I took the assessment that you have available on your website that I found and it identified myself as Diana the free and I’ve been at duct tape marketing for

about 14 years now and people have always looked at us as a marketing firm to be ahead, one step ahead of all the changes and evolution that’s happening in marketing. And so when I got that specific architect type, that aligned very nicely with what I’ve been in the position to do over the last 14 years.

Jane McCarthy (07:40.972)

love that. And I have to admit that I saw your quiz results and I saw that some folks at Duck Tape, a lot of you guys got Diana and I thought, okay, this is a team that’s aligned. And so yes, this is the goddess that is the innovative goddess and is one step ahead of the curve. And by the way, a lot of female founders have Diana as their core archetype. So you’re hitting on something too, which is a brand has

Sara Nay (07:45.004)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (07:53.024)

Yes.

Jane McCarthy (08:10.528)

an archetype, but then your person can have one. And of course, that’s what I took them from. I took them from a young analyst who was talking about people. And so we tend to all have one core archetype that defines our personality. I, for example, am a maiden Persephone. And so I’m all about imagination and feeling into possibility and

fantasy and myth, which actually makes sense for why I ended up doing what I’ve done here. But this can be very informative as we think about our own mission and our own purpose. And then if we are at the heart of our business and we’re the face of our business, like you are the host of this podcast, then who you are is going to inform the energy of the brand, the energy of the business that you’re driving. So who you are and your

Sara Nay (08:47.971)

Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (09:05.536)

your archetype is potentially linked, not always and doesn’t have to be, but potentially very linked to the archetype of your brand.

Sara Nay (09:13.9)

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And that’s actually a reason that I was interested in having my team take the assessment as well after I did, because, you know, I think we’ve established duct tape marketing as a brand over the years, but, one of the things that we’re always hiring for when we’re hiring new people are things, people that are up for change and up for a challenge and that want to be seen as leaders. So it wasn’t a surprise that we had.

a bunch of Diana’s on our team because of kind of what we’ve built as a brand and who we’ve hired for. And so I’m just curious in your experience, like this is all really important conversation for building the brand and putting yourself out there and resonating with clients. But in your experience, does it help with, you know, hiring and attracting the right type of candidates to join your team as well?

Jane McCarthy (09:56.226)

Well, I think this is a really intriguing idea. And I don’t have tremendous experience with team building based on archetypes, so I won’t make a objective statement. But I will tell you that I’m really interested in personality types in this whole world, and I have been for some time. And I was up at Esalen in Big Sur taking a workshop on Enneagram types.

Sara Nay (09:59.651)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (10:09.176)

Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (10:22.59)

And the Enneagram, I also mapped the Enneagram to the goddess archetypes and I utilized that system as well. And I remember talking with a guy who is a very successful CEO of a essential oils company. And he told me that when he was hiring, he did an Enneagram personality test on every applicant and he only hired number two, which is called the helper in the Enneagram system.

Sara Nay (10:50.275)

Mm-hmm.

Jane McCarthy (10:51.662)

for people who were gonna be working on the floor in stores. And he was just looking for that natural helping personality to be frontline, because we all know that if you have a brand or a business where you’re interacting with people in real life on the human level, that service experience is essential and you can have the right colors, you can have the right symbols, you can have the right products, but if everything falls down at the service level, that’s a disappointment. So I think…

Sara Nay (10:59.288)

Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (11:21.406)

I saw I saw I’ve had that anecdotal story of somebody who applied personality types to position in company effective.

Sara Nay (11:33.046)

Yeah, we’ve done a number of assessments over the years. So that’s why I was curious in relation to yours. well let’s dive into some, I love hearing about examples like the one you shared there. so, but can you identify any brands that you would say embody one specific type of architect and why and how they identify that.

Jane McCarthy (11:51.822)

Okay, yes, so since we’re talking about Diana the Free, we’ll just continue on that path. I think she’s a goddess, she’s the huntress, she’s running through the wilderness, she has no interest in cocktail parties on Olympus. And if you think about Wonder Woman and the Wonder Woman film from 2017 that was so great, her name is Diana. So this is Diana or the Athena archetype.

Sara Nay (11:55.906)

Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (12:19.694)

I interviewed for the book, The Goddess Guide to Branding, a CEO named Caitlin Bram. And she has started a hard cider company called Yonder, which is based in the Pacific Northwest. And they have a taproom now in Seattle. And then she has distribution throughout the region. And I think eventually she wants to go national. But her brand is called Yonder. And it’s all about the wild and wandering spirit.

of a yonder brand. And if you think about Diana as being this goddess of the wilderness, she has this wild and wandering spirit that’s about, that has to do with yonder. And on her can is a wolf howling at the moon. And she said, I can’t tell you how many people ask me for more merch that has this wolf. They just love this wolf. And so you could think apples, fall festival.

Sara Nay (12:51.331)

Mm-mm.

Sara Nay (13:09.688)

Mm-hmm.

Jane McCarthy (13:16.952)

that it’s not necessarily where you would go with a cider brand, but she went to a wild spirit, a wolf spirit, or in my case, in my book, a Diana spirit, in order to get at this adventuring spirit, first of all, so that people would think about trying something different, because most people are not familiar with hard cider, but also to deal with any issues around, think this cider is gonna be sweet.

Sara Nay (13:29.026)

Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (13:44.642)

Her products aren’t sweet. She focuses on making hard cider that tastes more like a cocktail. And so through her brand story, she combats any naysayers around, this is going to be sickly sweet. I don’t want to try it. So you can see how the wildness energy appeals to people on a visceral level. But then it also helps with tell the product story in a way that will be appealing. And that’s totally Diana. It’s about adventuring forward.

Sara Nay (13:50.701)

Yes.

Sara Nay (14:12.992)

Yeah, great. Can you give me another example? really love hearing, you know, use cases like you just did there. So can you talk through just one more example of a different brand? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (14:18.154)

Yeah, yeah, let me talk another one. So I love talking about the women in the book because they’re so awesome and they have, you know, fairly new companies. And so another brand in the book is Alice Mushrooms and Alice Mushrooms makes functional mushroom chocolates. And so people are familiar with functional mushrooms. Some of some people take it in their tea. They put it in smoothies and

These ladies put, these founders put their, Lindsey Goodstein and Charlotte Wasserstein to be specific, put these chocolates, the functional mushrooms in chocolate and then in a beautiful tin that is meant to have, you’re meant to have one square a day. So the mechanism of giving you the functional thing is a delightful treat.

And that was the innovation is they were, sorry, it was Charlotte Cruz. We may have to, maybe I could just retake this. Is this okay? I don’t want to get their names wrong. I’m so sorry. Okay. Okay. So Alice Mushrooms is a functional mushroom chocolate brand and they deliver the goodness of functional mushrooms in a chocolate square.

Sara Nay (15:24.332)

Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Yep, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. It’s okay.

Jane McCarthy (15:43.22)

And so you can take your daily dose of functional mushrooms through chocolate. And so then what they did with the brand, this is Charlotte Cruz and Lindsey Goodstein, these are the founders. They decided to use what I call a Maiden Persephone archetype. And so they took a functional mushroom chocolate and they made it delightful. They made it the energy of magical, fantastical, Alice in Wonderland world.

And if you go onto their website, when you use your cursor, little stardust follows your cursor. So the whole thing is delightful. And interestingly, in that category, a lot of the functional mushroom products are doing 70s psychedelia. So they really do like, and I love the Grateful Dead, but it’s kind of like tie-dye Grateful Dead energy. And so they completely did something different and they went to

Maiden Persephone energy, the goddess of delights and youth and sweetness. And they created a functional mushroom product that’s very feminine, very elevated. And so they found an archetype really inspired by Alice. And I would think of this as Maiden Persephone that differentiates them in market and appeals to people in a wholly different way compared to having a functional mushroom tea.

Sara Nay (17:10.488)

I love it. Thanks for sharing both of those examples. I’m gonna have to go check out their website and see the fairy dust. Now you intrigued me. My next question to you is let’s say someone’s listening today and they just overall like feel like their branding is tired. needs a do over, it needs a relook. How would you encourage them to approach this whole topic and just brand strategy in general?

Jane McCarthy (17:32.994)

Yeah, so I think this is a really intriguing thing to take on because what I want to caution is you never want to walk away too quickly from something that you’re known for. It takes time to establish credibility, legitimacy, and connection with customers. That takes a lot of time. So if you’ve been in market,

First, you want to look at what people love about you and really savor that and make sure that you build on that in a fresh way rather than throwing everything out. I’m always cautioning against a full reboot and I think an evolution and the word evolution is nice. And so then thinking about what people love about you and then what is the credible impact you can have on their life.

starting from there, I would then say, look to the archetype who delivers that and get really rooted in the meaning that you bring, get really clear about it, and then come up with all kinds of fun ways to do things new and different. That’s in the creative expression, right? That’s in the tactical imagination. But strategy-wise, don’t be too quick to walk away from what you’ve developed. Figure out what’s best.

about what you do, what people love about you, and then amplify that. And if you get the book, you can figure out which archetype you are. And I have a system for thinking about how to evolve. But that’s my big suggestion is don’t be too quick to walk away from what people love. Instead, come up with fresh ways to deliver on that.

Sara Nay (19:22.754)

That’s great. And one last question I was going to go to today. So I’m glad that you mentioned your book there. What can people expect if they do grab a copy of your book? What are they going to learn? Obviously learning what archetype makes the most sense for them, but what else can they get out of that book?

Jane McCarthy (19:37.472)

Yes, so figuring out your archetype is the first step. And in a lot of ways, it can unlock other keys to what I call your brand blueprint. But in the book, I walk you through this full set of exercises to get you to a complete brand blueprint. so for me, that’s not just the archetype, but we also share how you figure out the heart of your brand. So what is that core motivation, that driving energy,

Many of us who are into marketing are familiar with Simon Sinek’s idea of why, like why you’re doing this and what is that raw passion behind your business? So we get clear on that. And then the, what I call the gift. So what is the central emotion that you want your brand to help amplify in people? And so what is the takeaway feeling that they have?

after they’ve had an experience with your brand. So we wanna get clear on, once you know the feeling you wanna give people, you can come up with a million different ways of delivering on that feeling. But we wanna figure out what is that positive impact you wanna make at an emotional level. And then the style piece, which I think of both the iconic elements of your brand, so your colors, your symbols, the words, the voice, those are things that are true threat over time. And then we have a couple of…

exercises to start to think about how you then live that brand day by day, that brand identity day by day in terms of the dynamic actions. So what’s happening this month in the social media calendar, et cetera. So you leave with a complete brand blueprint that I think boils down the essentials of what makes a brand identity.

Sara Nay (21:26.582)

Yeah, that’s great. And a lot of those components are elements that John and I have been talking about the importance of marketing right now with everything that’s evolving. Like it’s becoming more and more important to connect with your clients on an emotional level and to tell the story of why and to represent the brand in a positive light. Like those things are gaining importance in marketing. So I’m glad that you touch on all of those in the book. If anyone wants to connect with you online, where can they find you Jane?

Jane McCarthy (21:53.464)

So I have a website, goddessoffice.com, and then I’m also on Substack, goddessoffice.substack.com, and I would love for you to reach out.

Sara Nay (22:04.438)

Awesome. Thanks so much for being on the show, Jane. really loved learning from you and speaking with you and thank you everyone for listening to the duct tape marketing podcast. We’ll see you next time.

Storytelling Converts Better Than Sales Tactics Every Time

Storytelling Converts Better Than Sales Tactics Every Time written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with David Garfinkel

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed David Garfinkel, a copywriting expert and author of The Persuasion Story Code. David is widely regarded as one of the top authorities on persuasive communication, storytelling in marketing, and direct response marketing. His expertise lies in helping businesses, marketers, and entrepreneurs craft compelling messages that drive sales conversion and customer engagement through effective storytelling.

During our conversation, David shared why sales storytelling is a far more effective approach than traditional sales tactics. Instead of relying on hard-selling, businesses can use storytelling frameworks to build trust, rapport, and emotional connections with their audience. He also introduced the concept of “stories with a dollar sign,” explaining how the right storytelling tactics can increase audience engagement and ultimately lead to more conversions.

David Garfinkel’s insights on persuasive communication and sales storytelling reinforce why businesses should focus on crafting the right storytelling tactics rather than relying on outdated sales methods. By integrating compelling narratives into marketing strategies, companies can enhance audience engagement, build stronger connections, and drive business growth through authentic storytelling.

Key Takeaways:

Persuasion beats pushy sales tactics – People connect more with compelling narratives than with aggressive sales pitches.
Storytelling drives conversions – Using marketing copywriting with a strong storytelling framework can eliminate objections and move prospects closer to a sale.
Empathy in marketing matters – Stories that resonate with customers’ pain points help build trust and business storytelling strengthens brand loyalty.
Case study storytelling creates credibility – Demonstrating real-world success through case study storytelling reassures potential customers and removes doubts.
Marketing strategies must evolve – Businesses need to shift from old-school selling to persuasion techniques that make customers feel understood and valued.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing David Garfinkel
[00:54] Story Frameworks
[03:11] What are Persuasion Stories?
[05:22] How to Make a Conversational Story
[06:48] Merging Stories and CTAs
[09:09] Using Stories to Get Attention
[12:39] Mistakes in Storytelling
[13:28] Learning from Your Favorite Books
[15:30] AI in Storytelling
[18:51] Is There a Formula to Storytelling?

More About Matt McQueen:

Check out David Garfinkel’s Website
Connect with David Garfinkel on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Cold Outreach Strategies That Actually Work in 2025

Cold Outreach Strategies That Actually Work in 2025 written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Matthew McQueen

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Matthew McQueen, co-founder of Coldlytics, a company that specializes in research-based lead generation for cold outreach. Matthew has helped digital agencies and B2B businesses refine their cold email strategy, improve outbound sales, and increase client acquisition with targeted, high-quality prospecting lists.

During our conversation, Matthew shared actionable insights on how businesses can improve cold outreach by focusing on personalized, value-driven engagement rather than mass-email tactics. He explained why many cold email campaigns fail, how businesses can leverage AI in sales for better email personalization, and why smaller, highly targeted prospect lists lead to higher response rates.

Matthew’s approach to digital prospecting and B2B marketing is a game-changer for businesses looking to improve cold outreach results. By prioritizing high-quality data, personalization, and multi-channel engagement, companies can increase business growth and close more deals efficiently.

Key Takeaways:

Quality Over Quantity in Lead Generation – Instead of blasting thousands of emails, focus on a targeted lead generation strategy with high-intent prospects who are more likely to engage.
Personalization is Key – Generic cold emails don’t work. Use email personalization techniques such as referencing website data, industry involvement, or prior marketing activity to connect with potential clients.
AI and Automation Can Help—but Only If Used Right – Sales automation tools and AI in sales can improve efficiency, but they should enhance personalization, not replace human connection.
Multi-Touchpoint Outreach Works Best – Combining email marketing, direct marketing, LinkedIn engagement, and even phone calls creates an omnichannel approach that builds trust faster.
Success in Outbound Marketing Takes Testing – The best outbound marketing strategies involve constant testing and iteration—optimize email prospecting sequences and messaging for better conversion rates.
Smaller, More Qualified Lists Convert Better – Instead of sending mass emails to a broad audience, create a refined list of ideal prospects based on industry, company size, and digital marketing activity.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introduction to Matthew McQuinn
[00:54] Outreach with Intention and Value
[02:57] Targeting Your Cold Outreach
[07:18] How is AI Impacting Lead Generation?
[10:51] What Works to Generate Leads
[14:14] Brand, Privacy, and Effective Outreach
[16:44] Qualifying Leads
[21:10] The Most Effective Form of Outreach

More About Matt McQueen:

Check out Matt McQueen’s Website
Connect with Matt McQueen on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

The Framework That Transformed My Business (And Can Transform Yours Too)

The Framework That Transformed My Business (And Can Transform Yours Too) written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Nick Sonnenberg

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Nick Sonnenberg, founder of Leverage, a leading operational efficiency consultancy, and author of the bestselling book Come Up for Air. Nick is an expert in business efficiency, team productivity, and workplace systems. His CPR framework has transformed the way businesses operate by addressing common bottlenecks in communication, planning, and resources.

During our conversation, Nick shared his personal journey of overcoming chaos in his business, where rapid growth led to inefficiency and burnout. He explained how the CPR framework—focusing on Communication, Planning, and Resources—helps organizations streamline workflows, improve team collaboration, and maximize time management. By implementing this approach, businesses can achieve operational efficiency, reduce stress, and create sustainable systems that support long-term success.

Nick Sonnenberg’s CPR framework is a game-changer for business owners looking to improve team productivity, streamline workflows, and create a stress-free operational environment. Whether you’re an overwhelmed entrepreneur or a growing organization, adopting this framework can transform how you work and set you up for long-term success.

Key Takeaways:

The CPR Framework
- Communication: Streamline internal communication by consolidating tools and reducing unnecessary back-and-forth. For example, task-related discussions should live in project management tools, not Slack or email.
- Planning: Centralize task and project management in tools like Asana or Monday.com. This ensures everyone knows what needs to be done, by whom, and when.
- Resources: Create a knowledge base or wiki where team members can self-serve answers to routine questions, reducing disruptions and improving efficiency.
Prioritize Return on Time (ROT)
- Focus on tasks that yield the highest time savings for the least investment. This approach ensures that efforts are directed toward impactful improvements in business workflows and team productivity.
Systemize Early to Scale Effectively
- Even solopreneurs should start implementing systems early to prepare for growth. Small, incremental changes to streamline processes can prevent chaos as the business scales.
The Importance of Documentation
- Use tools like Loom to record processes and create step-by-step guides. Documenting workflows not only helps current employees but also reduces risks when onboarding new team members or transitioning roles.
Long-Term vs. Short-Term Thinking
- Businesses focused on long-term efficiency see greater success than those chasing quick wins. Investing in operational efficiency and business systems now creates a stress-free and scalable environment in the future.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Nick Sonnenberg
[00:44] How Nick Stopped Drowning in Work
[06:25] Prioritizing Where to Start
[07:46] Focusing on What Matters
[10:08] Investing in Implementing Change
[11:34] Solving Operational Efficiency Holistically
[12:48] Best Practices of CPR (Communication, Planning, and Resources)
[16:24] What Size Business is CPR for?
[18:14] Find Out More About Nick and His Work

More About Duncan Wardle:

Check out Nick Sonnenberg’s Website
Connect with Nick Sonnenberg on LinkedIn
Read Come Up for Air: How Teams Can Leverage Systems and Tools to Stop Drowning in Work by Nick Sonnenberg

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Stop Killing Ideas! Use “Yes, And” Instead of “No, Because”

Stop Killing Ideas! Use “Yes, And” Instead of “No, Because” written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Duncan Wardle

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Duncan Wardle, former Head of Innovation and Creativity at Disney, who shared his strategies for embedding innovation and creativity into organizational culture. Duncan has spent decades fostering innovation in some of the world’s most iconic brands, including Disney Imagineering, Pixar, and Lucasfilm. His fresh approach emphasizes breaking free from traditional thinking, fostering playful leadership, and reframing challenges to create breakthrough solutions.

During our conversation, Duncan highlighted the power of replacing the dismissive “No, because” mindset with the collaborative “Yes, and” approach. This simple shift not only encourages creative thinking but also transforms individual ideas into collective solutions that are more likely to succeed. By fostering a culture of playful leadership, embedding innovation into the DNA of teams, and solving consumer pain points with reframing strategies, leaders can drive sustainable growth and cultivate organizational creativity.

Key Takeaways:

Adopt the “Yes, And” Mindset
Replace “No, because” with “Yes, and” to foster collaborative brainstorming and build on ideas instead of shutting them down.
Reframe Challenges for Better Solutions
Instead of asking, “How can we make more money?” reframe questions to solve consumer pain points, like Disney did with their Magic Band innovation.
Leverage Playfulness to Unlock Creativity
Incorporate playful leadership techniques, such as short energizers and humor, to shift teams into a creative and problem-solving mindset.
Embed Innovation into Your Culture
Avoid isolating creativity in specific teams—empower all employees to think innovatively as part of their roles.
Look Outside Your Industry for Inspiration
Borrow ideas and technologies from other industries to inspire creative thinking and problem-solving.
Reclaim Imagination and Creativity
Break free from the constraints of traditional education and encourage curiosity, intuition, and imagination in your workplace.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introduction to Duncan Wardle
[01:00] Defining Innovation and Embedding a Culture of Creativity
[03:12] Embracing Innate Creativity
[04:48] The Future of Employability
[09:38] Collaborative Brainstorming Exercise
[12:43] Unlocking Creativity through Playfulness and Collaboration
[17:01] River of Thinking and Innovation

More About Duncan Wardle:

Check out Duncan Wardle’s Website
Connect with Duncan Wardle on LinkedIn
Read The Imagination Emporium: Creative Recipes for Innovation by Duncan Wardle

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.89)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Duncan Wardle. He’s the former head of innovation and creativity at Disney. Duncan played a pivotal role in fostering innovation across Imagineering, Lucasfilm, Marvel, Pixar, and Disney parks, crafting enchanting new storylines and experiences. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, The Imagination Emporium.

Creative recipes for innovation. So Duncan, welcome to the show.

Duncan (00:34.324)

Thank you, thanks very much for having me.

John Jantsch (00:36.074)

So one of my viewers, listeners, not viewers, won’t be able to know this, but one of my favorite characters is Goofy. You’ve got him right there behind you.

Duncan (00:46.794)

Yeah, so yes, these are hand-painted. It’s not an illustration. Yeah, they were created a few years ago now.

John Jantsch (00:55.106)

Very, very cool. So there was a book I read right when I was getting started, actually, that was very influential on me. was written by Peter Drucker and one of the comments in there was that he said that the only two things in business that matter are marketing and innovation. Everything else is a cost. I think a lot of people quote that and I’ve heard that phrase many times, but I’m wondering, like,

If we asked 10 people what innovation actually was at a company, I think we would get maybe 11 or 12 definitions. So how do you frame the idea of innovation? mean, it’s very large concept.

Duncan (01:32.57)

Yeah, crystal clear. Creativity is the ability to have an idea. We can all do that. We do it every day. Innovation is the ability to get it done. The challenge for most of us is the more experience, the more expertise we have, the more reasons we know why the new idea won’t work. So we constantly shoot it down. I call it our river of thinking. And it’s very fast and very wide and very allowing you and me to make quick and informed decisions. But in the last four years, we’ve seen global pandemics.

John Jantsch (01:39.394)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice.

Duncan (01:58.762)

We’ve seen Generation Z entering the workplace but doesn’t want to work for corporate America. We’ve got artificial intelligence entering the marketplace. And what was the fourth one? There’s four of them. Global pandemic, Generation Z entering the workplace, artificial intelligence. Doesn’t matter. The world’s changed, right? And it’s changed irrevocably. We can’t go back to thinking the way we thought four years ago. And so, you know, Disney, I tried four models of innovation. Model number one.

I hired somebody who knew what they were doing. I said, make me look good. That was an agency. And to a certain extent, they did. They were never around for execution. And they certainly weren’t going to show me how they did what they did, or they were worried I wouldn’t hire them again. Model number two, we’re creating an innovation team. Duncan will be in charge. What could possibly go wrong? Well, outside of legal, who does legal work? Outside of marketing, who does marketing work? Nobody. So when you create an innovation team, you subliminally just told everybody else you’re off the hook.

We tried an accelerator program which created some level of access enabling us to partner with some young tech startups and bring some new technology to market. But we had failed in our overall goal, which was set by the CEO of Disney, was how might we embed a culture of innovation and creativity into everybody’s DNA. So I set out to create a toolkit that has three principles. It takes the BS out of innovation and makes it less intimidating to normal, hardworking people.

Make creativity tangible for those people who are uncomfortable with ambiguity and gray. Fun, more importantly, make the process fun. Give people tools they choose to use when you and I are not around.

John Jantsch (03:31.062)

All right, so and I’m sure you hear this all the time. I know you’ll have a great answer for this, but what do do in those organizations or individuals who we know there are lots of them, but say, I’m just not creative. Yeah.

Duncan (03:44.488)

Yeah, I disagree. I’m sorry. Look, let me ask you question. When you were a small boy, what was your favorite toy?

John Jantsch (03:54.094)

Probably a stick.

Duncan (03:55.594)

See what why because the stick was your lightsaber. That’s why it was your wand It was anything you wanted it to be and we were all born creative with an amazing image when you were given a gift for a holiday and it came in an enormous box and it took you ages to take the toy out of the box what do you spend the rest of week playing with Yeah, the box right it was your rocket it was your force it was your cart It was anything you wanted to be till you went to the number one killer of creativity Education and the first thing your first grade teacher told you to do was don’t forget to color in between the lines

John Jantsch (04:10.798)

The fort.

John Jantsch (04:20.044)

Right.

Duncan (04:24.586)

Small children, they’re very curious. ask why, why, why, why, why again? Because they’re seeking the core consumer truth. They’re after the insight for innovation. If I were to survey 5,000 people and ask them why they go to Disney on holiday, the number one response I’ll get is we go for the new attractions. But that’s not strictly true, is it? So if I were to rely just on my data, I’d go spend $250 million on a capital investment strategy. But if I pause for a moment and I act childlike, not childish, and say, well, why do you go for the new attractions? Well, now I like the classics. Why do you like the classics? Well, I like it’s a small world.

Why do you like it? a small world. Why remember music? God, no, not the music. Why the music? Where’s my mum’s favourite ride we used to go every summer? Why is that important to you 20 years later? I’ll take my daughter now. Boom. There’s your insight for innovation. Call consumer truth. It’s got nothing to do with the capital investment strategy and everything to do with that person’s personal memory and nostalgia. But then we go to the number one killer of curiosity, education. And the next thing we’re taught to do is to stop asking why, because there’s only one right answer. Here comes artificial intelligence, right?

You think we used to laugh at the blue collar workers? Well, guess what? They’ll be laughing at the white collar workers now. But I’ve been working with Google on their DeepMind project, which is their AI project. And I asked the lead engineer what I said, how the hell am I going to compete with this? You know, what will be the most employable skill sets the next five to 10 years? And she said, that’s easy. The ones that will be the hardest for her to program into AI. I said, well, what are those? says, the ones with which you were born, imagination, creativity, curiosity, empathy, and intuition. But they’re drummed out of us by the time we’re 18.

That’s the challenge.

John Jantsch (05:51.81)

Yeah, Of course, having some handy set of plumbing skills will become very necessary too though, It is.

Duncan (06:00.52)

No seriously hands-on workers absolutely fine. look I set out here’s why people say why do you write a book. Let me ask you quite an honest question here. When you see a business book in an office physically where is the book?

John Jantsch (06:15.022)

laying on a desk.

Duncan (06:16.616)

Yeah, there you go. it’s on the coffee table. It’s on the bookshelf. I’m going to get to it tomorrow, but my boss needs this now, so I actually never read it. I have good intentions to read it, but I don’t. So I thought, OK, how do I make it more accessible to people who’ve got other things to do? I thought, what nonfiction book have I ever read where I could read one page today and know exactly what I was going to do and not worry about the rest of the book today? My mum’s cookbook. You want shepherd’s pie? You got to pay 67. So the contents page is designed for busy people. It says, have you ever been to a brainstorm where nothing ever happened?

Go to page 67. Don’t know how to find insights for innovation? Go to page 42. Work in a heavily regulated industry? Go to page 67. So it’s designed to be very accessible, but it’s also designed to appeal to what I call the three sensory learning styles. So let me ask you a question. May I ask you to close your eyes for just a moment?

How many days are there in September? I would ask you to keep your eyes closed and tell me how you knew, how you remembered, how you learned or what you could see with your eyes closed right now. Bingo, you can open your eyes. 30 % of the people will recite the rhyme. 30 days has September, blah, blah. No, it’s true. And so they just told me they learn by listening. They probably read a lot. It’s an auditory style. How do I know that? Because they were six when they learned it. How did they remember it? Because they heard it. Another 30%.

John Jantsch (07:07.502)

30.

John Jantsch (07:15.626)

see a calendar.

John Jantsch (07:21.856)

Yeah, yeah.

Duncan (07:33.502)

Put the knuckles together and start counting the knuckles. January, February, March, April, May, June, June. Those are kinesthetic learners. By the way, John, you were taught both, but you don’t remember either because that’s not your preferred learning style. You’re the majority of the audience. You learn by seeing. You represent 40 percent of the audience. So I thought, OK, how do I create a book that’s not a book? I want it to be a toolkit. I want it to be fun, but I want it to be purposeful. I want it to appeal to all three learning styles. So it has QR codes embedded with each chapter with Spotify playlists for auditory learners.

It has animated videos in each chapter where Duncan is now an animated character. I pop out of the book with a bunch of other characters I’ve created for the visual learners and teach you how to use the tools and for our kinesthetic learners starting, I think today, but maybe in a couple of days from now, the QR code on the back of the book will actually take you directly to the very first ever fully integrated artificial intelligence book.

Why? Because I’ve never done it before. That’s why. So you will be able to ask the book questions and through chat. It’ll answer you through WhatsApp. So you might say, how do I use the tool on page 67? And it’ll answer you. But you could also say, how do I use the tool on page 67 to develop a marketing campaign that’s more of a mercy to experience for my brand? And the book will answer you.

John Jantsch (08:50.158)

Who published this book?

Duncan (08:52.266)

You know what, Amplify

John Jantsch (08:54.798)

So I’ve written several books with major publishers and I’m envisioning the meeting where you described what this book was going to be like.

Duncan (09:04.2)

I kept telling the publisher, we thought, he said it’s a book. I said, hell no, it’s not. It’s a toolkit. By the way, I want to give it away for free. Needless to say, the publisher had other ideas. I still want to give it away for students because we are killing the most employable skill sets in the next decade.

John Jantsch (09:19.502)

Yeah. So if you’re going to work with an organization that, and again, I don’t know if that’s a service you offer consulting, but if you were going to work with an organization, I mean, what are some of the mindsets they would have, you would try to get them to change the habits you would get them to change that would really make this come to life?

Duncan (09:35.686)

Here’s the first one and this is particularly for leaders, right? Because again, the more experience we have, the more reasons we know why the new idea won’t work. So John, you and I have been tasked with coming up with an idea for a birthday party, for a Harry Potter birthday party. Are you familiar with Harry Potter?

John Jantsch (09:53.166)

I’m not a, yes, I’m familiar, but I’m not a junkie.

Duncan (09:59.378)

No, but have you seen a couple of films? OK, good. So I’m going to come at you with some ideas for a Harry Potter party. I’d like you to start each and every response with the following two words. No, because they’ll be the first two words you use and you’ll tell me why not. I was thinking of coming to your house, putting a sorting hat outside the front door, having all the good people get the Gryffindor party, but all the bad people get the Slytherin party.

John Jantsch (10:01.079)

I have.

John Jantsch (10:20.428)

No, because everybody just wants to play Quidditch.

Duncan (10:24.921)

right, I tell you what then, we’ll give everybody a broomstick and they can go running around the back garden looking like idiots and work the snitch to be acting on a drone.

John Jantsch (10:29.806)

No, because they can’t really fly.

Duncan (10:34.406)

Alright, fair point. I’ll tell you what then, let’s say that we’ll bring them all indoors and we’ll have a magic potions room where we can all drink something that turns us into something totally freaky.

John Jantsch (10:42.766)

no, because, there’s actually a giant animal in the back closet that would probably eat everyone.

Duncan (10:53.898)

Fair point. tell you what then, what if we just showed the movies? We’ll put them on your TV screen and we’ll serve butterbeer and No because, come on. So let me ask you question. When somebody’s constantly no becauseing you, how does that make you feel?

John Jantsch (11:00.14)

that’s perfect. No, because there might be somebody allergic to popcorn.

John Jantsch (11:13.432)

frustrated.

Duncan (11:14.364)

Okay, I would call it business as usual. Let me ask you a question. Do you think our idea was getting bigger as we were going or was it getting smaller? Which way was it headed?

John Jantsch (11:16.578)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:21.486)

It was, we were down to watching the movies. It was getting smaller.

Duncan (11:25.48)

Yeah, all right. Let’s start again. Are you familiar with Star Wars? OK, so I’m going to come at you with some Star Wars ideas. Unlike Harry Potter, where you started the response every single time with no, because this time I’d like you to start every single response with the words yes and and we’ll just build on it together. So I was thinking of coming to your house, getting into the kitchen, painting it black, turning it into the Death Star canteen and we could have a food and wine festival and half of the boo and tattoo.

John Jantsch (11:29.518)

Yes.

John Jantsch (11:50.632)

yeah, yes, and let’s add stormtroopers.

Duncan (11:53.462)

yes, and yeah, we can have a cosplay party. All the tall people could come as Darth Vader and all the little people would come dressed as Ewoks.

John Jantsch (11:55.993)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And we’ve got to have Yoda, don’t we?

Duncan (12:03.121)

yes, and we can have the force. Everybody get a glow in the dark lightsaber full of their favorite alcoholic liquid.

John Jantsch (12:10.198)

Yes, and what about Darth Vader? Could he appear?

Duncan (12:14.362)

yes, and we could have Harrison Ford. We could bring back, yeah, or even the dead celebrities could come back via hologram and we could take them all on your corporate jet down to Disneyland to see the new galaxy’s edge.

John Jantsch (12:24.526)

Yes, and why not invite George Lucas?

Duncan (12:27.176)

Alright, so we’ll stop there. So a lot more laughter, a lot more energy. Most of us became Italian for the first time today, waving our arms. This time around, bigger or smaller.

John Jantsch (12:31.608)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:37.432)

Well, it kept getting much larger.

Duncan (12:39.434)

You can always take a big idea and value engineer it down. Pretty hard to turn a small one into a big one. Far more importantly, we work inside big organizations, we work inside small organizations, we have colleagues and constituents and clients to bring on board with our idea. By the time you and I just finished building the idea together, whose idea was it by the time we finished?

John Jantsch (12:58.145)

well was totally mine.

Duncan (12:59.53)

I would argue ours, John, thank you. So here’s the thing, two little magical words, yes and, have the power to turn a small idea into a big one really quickly. But far more importantly, have the power to transfer my idea, which never goes anywhere inside an organization, to our idea and accelerate its opportunity to get done. Just remind yourselves, I know you’re leaders, I know you’ve got responsibilities and quarterly results and deadlines. Just remind ourselves, we’re not green lighting this idea for execution today. We are merely green housing it together using yes.

If you take nothing away from listening to today’s podcast, don’t let the words know because be the first two words out of your mouth when somebody comes at you with a new idea. They have made genius two days from now, two weeks from now. You’ll never hear it. Your job as a leader is just that you’ll get to the know because but don’t start there. The other thing that I tried to teach is playfulness and I’ll tell you for why. Can I ask you to close your eyes? Where are you and what are you doing when you get your best ideas?

John Jantsch (13:47.405)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:59.438)

Definitely outside.

Duncan (14:01.768)

OK, so you can open your eyes. I’ve done this with up to 20,000 people. You’re here. Shower, bathroom, jogging, walking, driving, commuting, gym. Do you know how many people say at work? Nobody. Not one person ever writes down at work. Well, why not? Close your eyes again. Picture that last argument you were in. Bit of a shouting match. You’re angry at them. They’re angry at you. Now you turn to walk away from that argument. You’re 10, 20, 30 seconds away. You’re about a minute away from the argument and…

John Jantsch (14:12.142)

the

Duncan (14:30.026)

What just popped into your brain totally spontaneously the second you turned to walk away from that argument? What was it? Well, you should have said the killer one-liner, that one perfect, beautiful lie. You wish you’d choose to the argument, but you didn’t, did you? No, never did. Why not? Because when we’re in an argument, our brain is moving at a thousand miles an hour defending ourselves. When we’re at work, we’re doing emails and presentations and reports and we hear ourselves say, the number one barrier to innovation, I don’t have time to think. And when you say, don’t have time to think, you’re in the brain state science calls beta.

John Jantsch (14:34.702)

what I should have said.

Nope.

Duncan (14:58.57)

where the door between conscious and subconscious brain is firmly closed. When that door is closed, you only have access to your conscious brain. That is 13 % of the capacity of your brain. 87 % of the capacity of your brain is your subconscious brain. Every creative problem you’ve ever solved, every innovation you’ve seen is back here to serve as unrelated stimulus. But when the door is shut, you don’t have access to it. So how do I move you from there metaphorically and place you back in the shower where it is when you have your best ideas? You can still make an informed decision.

But still have a big idea that brain state is known as alpha. I call it amazing alpha. The best brain state for creativity at work. How do I get you there? By being playful. What do I do? I run an energizer. Well, what’s that? It’s a 60 second exercise. What am I doing? I’m making you laugh. Why am I making you laugh? Because the moment I hear laughter, I know that I’ve just opened the door between your conscious and subconscious brain. When we ask who are the most creative people you’ve ever met, everybody always says children. And I always hear people say, we don’t have the resources. You say,

Who are the most creative people? Children. how much money they got? none. Now, I don’t expect people to be playful every minute of every day. Life would be great fun, but we wouldn’t get much work done. I do expect you, particularly as leaders, to be playful at the right time.

John Jantsch (16:07.18)

Yeah, you know, I read something recently about this idea of why children, you know, are able to have just such rich imaginations and such creativity. and it, well, the person concluded that, that actually, you know, young children, particularly, are halfway in a fantasy world, you know, and, we sort of the school and everything sort of beats that out of them says, no, this is reality. But, but it’s an interesting thought that,

Duncan (16:16.778)

I haven’t gone to school yet.

John Jantsch (16:34.778)

They’re able to be so creative because they really live between reality and fantasy.

Duncan (16:39.922)

Yeah, very true. Very true. No, it’s true. Education is killing the most employable skill sets of the next decade. The future of education is gaming. Education will not exist as it exists today. Why? Because it deserves to die. Why? Because your children are learning the same thing I learned at school but I went in the 70s. That’s why.

John Jantsch (16:47.694)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:56.483)

Yeah. Yeah. Multiplication tables are not going to be really a necessary skill, are they? So I want to talk a little more about, you mentioned it briefly, but I think there’s a lot more to this idea of river of thinking. Can you kind of talk about that metaphor and how it both informs and gets in the way?

Duncan (17:12.38)

Yeah, we all got stuck in it. You know, I worked at Disney for 30 years and I was helping Lucas, Lucas Films, Marvel and Pixar have new ideas. But the challenge is when you’re talking to anybody who’s worked in one particular line of business for a long time is they become so entrenched in what I call their river of thinking. So let me explain how that or the danger of a river of thinking. You and I are going to go into business together and we’re going to open a car wash. Tell me if you were three or four essential ingredients we must have in our car wash.

John Jantsch (17:41.454)

customers, water, employees.

Duncan (17:42.718)

What else?

Employees, customers, employees and water. OK, you and I are actually, are venture capitalists. We’ve been invited to open a brand new franchise of auto spas. Who are a spa? Now close your eyes. What would you what have you seen in the spa? What would you like to see in your spa? What could we have in the spa?

John Jantsch (18:06.926)

Great music. Very, very comfortable, fancy chairs.

Duncan (18:08.714)

Okay, what else?

Duncan (18:13.94)

Okay.

Duncan (18:18.442)

What else have you seen? There we go. So you can open your eyes. I said car wash straight into your river of thinking, right? Water brushes, so vacuum dryer. I said auto spa, which is about the same product. We’ve got masseuses, we’ve got many pedis. So this tool is brilliant. Walt Disney created it. He said we will not have any customers in our park. We will only have guests. We will not have any employees. We’ll only have cast members. And with that simple re-expression of the relationship between the customer and the employees, the cast member, the guests.

John Jantsch (18:18.774)

Aromas aromas. Yeah

John Jantsch (18:25.32)

Yeah.

Duncan (18:47.514)

everybody got out of their river of thinking created this culture of hospitality. Our river of thinking is this, how might we make more money? How might we make our quarterly results? If we continue to ask that question, we’d put the gate price up at Walt Disney World by three percent, you’d have complained and we’d have made our quarterly results. You don’t get to iterate in a post pandemic world. You innovate or you die. So instead of asking the question we ask ourselves every day, because that’s our river of thinking, how might we make more money? We reversed the challenge and said,

How might we solve the biggest consumer pain point? Everybody knew what it was. It was called standing line. And I said, what if there were no lines? Didn’t know how to solve it at the time. And we looked outside of our industry for an insight for innovation. Most of the insights for innovation come from looking outside of your industry. It’s called Where Else? It’s in the book. And we noticed there was a very small pharmacy in Tokyo, Japan, using RFID technology to enable people not to stand in line. Welcome to the world of Disney’s Magic Band. Does it come in red or gray in the mail?

Of it does. Why? Because you’re like, right, the Star Wars edition. Does it come with matching merchandise? Of course it does. This is my room key today. I don’t check in or check out of a Disney Resort Hotel. It’s my theme park tickets, my reservations for my character meet and greets and my rides. Now it’s morphing towards the phone. I can pull for merchandise and have it sent to my hotel room or house, depending on how many times I touch it. I can order my food through my smartphone, walk into the restaurant when I want to walk in, sit at the table I want to sit at. The food comes fresh to me. Had we started by saying, how might we make more money? Yeah, we’d have made 3%.

but by reversing the challenge and asking how might we solve and getting out of our river of thinking, say, how might we solve the biggest consumer pain point? The average guest at Walt Disney World today has two hours free time they didn’t have six years ago each and every day. What does that result in? Record intent to recommend, record intent to return and record revenues. What do people do with their free time in Disney parks? They spend a bucket load of money.

John Jantsch (20:29.58)

Yeah. All right. Buy more stuff. Absolutely. Well, Duncan, this has been a fascinating interview. I’m not sure if you interviewed me or I interviewed you, but nonetheless, I think the listeners will be the better for it. I really appreciate you taking a moment to stop by. there someplace you’d invite people to find out more about your work and the imagination?

Duncan (20:40.906)

you

Duncan (20:54.228)

Well, they can normally find me in the Lammon Flag pub in Covent Garden, but if I’m not there, they could go to the imagination emporium dot com or Duncan Wardle.

John Jantsch (21:01.762)

Well, again, I appreciate you taking a moment to share and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road. Likewise.

Duncan (21:07.388)

Nice to meet you.