John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by HubSpot. Look, AI is literally eating the web ChatGPT is more searched than I don’t know, Taylor Swift. Check out HubSpot’s AI powered tools, content assistant and chat spott. They both run on open AI’s G P T model, and both are designed to help you get more done and to grow your business faster. HubSpot’s AI powered content assistant helps you brainstorm, create, and share content in a flash, and it’s all inside a super easy to use CRM now. Chat Spott automates all the manual tasks inside HubSpot to help you arrange more customers close more deals, and scale your business faster. Find out more about how to use AI to grow your business at hubspot.com/artificial-intelligence. That’s hubspot.com/artificial-intelligence.

(01:14): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Becky Robinson. She’s the founder and CEO of weaving influence, a full service marketing agency that specializes in digital and integrated marketing services and public relations for book offerers, including business leaders, coaches, trainers, speakers, and thought leaders. In April of 2022, she finished her first book with Barrett Kohler publishers titled Reach: Create the Biggest Possible Audience for Your Message, Book, or Cause. So Becky, welcome to the show.

Becky Robinson (01:51): Thank you, John. It’s so great to be with you today.

John Jantsch (01:54): So I have, because I’ve written a few books myself, I get a lot of people that reach out to me and say, okay, I’ve written my book, how do I market it now? Uh, how do I sell books? ? I sell more books. I’m gonna suggest based on the title of your book that it starts way before that, doesn’t it?

Becky Robinson (02:12): Oh, it sure does, John. And you know, I think it starts, hopefully it starts before you even have an idea for a book. If you’re talking about a prescriptive nonfiction book, if you desire to write a prescriptive nonfiction book, you likely should be building an audience and community around your work for years before,

John Jantsch (02:31): Yeah,

Becky Robinson (02:32): Maybe a decade before

John Jantsch (02:34): . So, I mean, are you, I know a lot of people have ideas that they want to write a book and a few of ’em actually get around to doing it. Would you say that this is, I you would put this out there as a must? I mean, you must do the things in your book if you’re going to even consider having somebody look at your book.

Becky Robinson (02:53): Well, certainly if you want to attract a traditional publisher, right? You need to build an audience before you go to a traditional publisher because they’re making a business decision. They want to know that if they take a chance on your book and publish you, that you’re gonna be able to drive interest in sales. So, you know, if you dream of traditional publishing, yes, you must attend to growing an online presence to be able to support your book marketing. Now, if you’re interested in, you know, some people come to me and they wanna write a book just because it’s a bucket list item or Yeah, yeah. You know, maybe they wanna use it as a glorified business card in their business and give to potential customers. Now, in that case, you might have a choice about whether or not to build an online presence, but in the book, one of the things I talk about, John, is what I call the influence gap.

(03:36): And for anyone who has great real world expertise that they could bring to a nonfiction business book, but they haven’t adequately represented that thought leadership online, then they’re experiencing what I call the influence gap. And that happens when there’s a disconnect between who we are in real life and who we are online. If we want to set ourselves up for success, to have the biggest possible reach for our work, we have to choose to invest in both that kind of offline real world, you know, knowing something about our topics, experience with real life people and work. And we have to translate that and share that journey online as well.

John Jantsch (04:14): Yeah. If I can be completely cynical, I would suggest that the traditional publisher is, that’s the first thing they care about. What’s the size of your audience? What’s the size of your reach? Oh, you got a nice topic. Great, we’ll get to that later. It’s more like, can you guarantee us that you can sell 25,000 copies? I mean, I think that’s almost the, the calculus today, isn’t it?

Becky Robinson (04:31): It is. And that’s why people who are already famous get book deals. Right. You know, I have, I took a screenshot the day that Barack Obama’s book came out. He sold 887,000 books on the day his book was released . So of course, you know, people who have that kind of existing fame and fortune already are the ones who are gonna get the book deals. You know, that’s why, you know, you see kind of a, a viral sensation happen and someone has a big following. Then quite often what follows after that is a book deal. And that’s an easy decision when the outcome of the success of the publisher’s work is that they sell books. The reality is they may publish a lot of books that don’t sell to that level, and they’re using those huge sale selling books to offset the ones who aren’t. But for people who are not known, you have to be able to prove that you can drive sales. Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:24): And it’s probably 90 to 95% of their books, you know, are not, maybe they’re break even or, you know, maybe they make a little money, but you’re absolutely right. They bank on, you know, that top 10. And then of course, years of back list. I mean, but Duct Tape Marketing came out in 2007, and I’m still getting, you know, royalty checks, you know, for that, because that back list of 600 or 6,000, I don’t have many books, you know, is where they actually make their money. Let’s talk a little bit about self-publishing then. You talked about the glorified business card as it sort of called, but it, there’s no question it can be, uh, an effective marketing tactic and that whole world has gotten a lot easier and you know, much more streamlined. Talk a little bit about that as an option.

Becky Robinson (06:03): Sure, I’d be glad to. So there are lots of folks who, you know, have a point of view to share, but they don’t necessarily aspire to getting a lot of sales. Uh, in that case, obviously self-publishing can be a viable option and, uh, like even at my company, we support authors who want to self-publish their books, uh, with what I call a book production service. We are not a publisher. Uh, what I would say is that quality still matters. Yeah. So you wanna write a book worth reading because if you’re using a book in that way, those who read it will be using that book to decide if you’re credible and if you’re worth hiring. And so you don’t wanna skimp on a professional cover, you don’t wanna skimp on a professional edit, you don’t wanna skip skimp on a professional interior design. You want to create the best product possible, because obviously that will tell people things about your brand and expertise.

(06:54): Yeah. And so in that world, you know, if you’re going to bother to write a book worth reading, then what I would say is then why not invest in expanding awareness of that book even beyond the people who could hire you? There’s so much time and energy and money that goes into that. So, you know, on in some ways, you know, I said that’s a choice that people can make, but at the same time, if you are going to invest to the level that you would need to have a product that can be a good business card for your business, then why not share that value more widely? You know, I wanna pick up on something you said, John, you are still getting royalty checks on a book that you wrote in 2007. So for those who might be listening who are considering a book, you wanna see that book as being a long-term, viable marketing tool for your work and a value add to others. And you know what? An amazing thing to have a book that’s been out there that many years is still relevant, is still reaching readers. And I think that’s the kind of book that we should all aspire to write. Yeah. One that’s going to be timeless, one that’s going to add value, one that can continue to fuel whatever work we wanna be about in the world.

John Jantsch (08:00): Yeah. And I, and I think also a lot of times people think of the book as one thing. You know, for me it quadrupled my speaking. It, you know, led to other people wanting, we started a whole licensing program of our methodology be based on the fact that people were able to find that book. So I didn’t write it as a business card, but it certainly has for many years acted as a drawing card for many other things that we’ve been able to build around it. And I, and I think that’s a lot of times people just think the physical book is it, but the physical book might actually be the entry.

Becky Robinson (08:33): Yeah, I agree with you because once you have that physical book, the ideas in the book can be repurposed and reused in all sorts of different ways to be able to reach new audiences in new ways. And you know, I imagine, John, you have continued to learn or adapt the ideas in the book. And so as you continue to bring those to new audiences, the power of that original content asset will grow. So chapter seven in my book, for those of you who are interested and have an existing book, wanna figure out how to repurpose and reuse it in different ways, that’s a really powerful way to, to view a book. It’s, it’s an ongoing asset that you can use to add value to the world.

John Jantsch (09:10): So because, and this isn’t always the case with nonfiction offers, but because you have actually done what you’re telling people to do, you have your own book now that is out there. Talk a little bit about your journey of creating reach that led to, uh, a publishing deal for you. And we can just use you as a bit of a case study.

Becky Robinson (09:28): Sure, I would love to. So John, I started working with authors back in about 2010. And immediately I think as we, we all who love books are drawn to, you know, I saw what my authors were experiencing, and I, I immediately said, well, I want to do this also. And I remember early on, I traveled out to San Francisco. I had an author who was published by Barett Kohler Publishers, who later did acquire my book. And I remember thinking, well, look at how easy this is. Like, I know a publisher. So I, I made an appointment with an editor, I sat down, I shared my first book idea, and guess what happened? He said no. And then a few years later, I thought I had refined my idea a little bit. I contacted the same acquiring editor, and guess what John? He said, no. And then some more years went by.

(10:17): And I think in those intervening years, a few things happened. One is that I continued to build my own online presence. I was building my email list. I was establishing thought leadership and credibility. You know, in those years I had a podcast, I had a newsletter. I grew my social media accounts. So there were at least two things that happened during those intervening years between when I started my business and then 10 years after when I finally did get a book deal. One is that I built confidence in the way that I could articulate my ideas, which I think led to me writing a better book proposal in terms of how I framed the idea. So that’s one thing. And the second thing is also just the growth of my thought leadership brand. So in 2012, when I first talked to the editor, I was an unknown.

(10:59): I didn’t have, you know, any experience or credibility. You know, fast forward 10 years, I could say, Hey, I’ve launched 150 business books, you know, I’ve done X, Y, Z. So I think that, you know, for those who might be listening, who might be beginners like I was, and have a book dream, be patient, but use your time in the best way possible. Yeah. No, I think it’s possible. I could have gotten a book deal earlier. I had a lot of reasons along the way for why I waited. Finally, the thing that kind of got me over my resistance was figuring out that if I did a book proposal in, I think it was like the fall of 2020 or the leading up to December, 2020, that I could probably release the book for the 10 year anniversary of my company. Mm-hmm. . So that was really the thing that kind of pushed me over the edge, John, to say, okay, I’m going to do it this time. I’m going to write a book proposal and submit it. And so I, I got a book deal in February of 2021. Then my book came out in April of 22.

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(13:16): So let’s talk a little bit about the, I think you call ’em commitments, pillars, whatever we wanna talk about. So there are four that you, uh, talk about in the book, value, consistency, endurance, and generosity. Obviously listeners, you’re going to get the book to get the whole story, but let’s talk a little bit about that idea of giving value. I think there’s a lot of, there’s a challenge for some people because they have a business values what they sell, , you know, but, but giving value sometimes, I mean, we all know it generally comes back, but sometimes if you don’t, if you don’t have enough money to eat , you’re giving value. Feels hard, doesn’t it?

Becky Robinson (13:52): Well, yes, and I do want to acknowledge, and I do talk about in my book, the difficulty for some of these ideas, if you happen to come from a marginalized identity. And I do know that my own ability to navigate the world did come from a, a place of privilege as many of us do. So I do wanna acknowledge that first. But in terms of growing an online brand or online thought leadership, it always has to start with value. And that value is, you know, what do you have to add? You know, what’s the topic or expertise that you’re bringing to online spaces? And so showing up with value is the starting point, because why would someone wanna follow you if there’s not some value that you’re delivering to them? I do wanna say, John, that value is not only about the content that we create, but it’s also about the connections that we make.

(14:36): And so people might derive value from following us, not only because we have a point of view to share, but also because of who we are as people. And so thinking about value, it’s, there’s value in the content, but there’s also value in the relationships or how we show up in the world. And that’s really the starting line for this. Like, if you don’t have any value to offer, you are not going to attract people to follow you or build community or build an audience. So yeah, that’s really the, the most basic commitment. The second commitment is consistency. And you know, in order for people to count on you or trust you, they have to know not only that you will show up in a consistent way that you’re gonna continue to be there. John, before we started recording, you told me that you’ve done 1500 podcast episodes.

(15:22): Now that is consistency, if I’ve ever seen it before. People know John, that they can count on you to show up with something. List interesting to listen to that you’re gonna ask good questions, that you’re gonna share content that matches what they need. So when we show up with value, consistency, people know that they can count on us. And the other thing is, I think people need to see a consistency of message. So sometimes where we fail at building reach, it’s because we, we failed to, uh, we failed to commit to a topic area. And so for example, like today I might wanna write about social media next week I might wanna write about leadership. People can’t figure out what I’m about. So we do need to have consistency in our messaging.

John Jantsch (16:03): Yeah, it’s interesting about that topic though. I think some, if I can add a point to that, consistency sometimes can just be a consistent point of view. You know, there are new topics that come up in our, you know, our world of marketing, for example. My consistent point of view has always been that marketing’s a system that starts with strategy before tactics. But Lord knows over the last 20 years we’ve seen a lot of new platforms that fit into that point of view. And I, so, so I think sometimes people do jump around, but I think you can jump around with a consistent point of view. And I, I maybe that’s a subtle point, but I think it’s one worth making.

Becky Robinson (16:38): No, I think that’s a really good point, John. And you know, I think that part of it involves ensuring that we’re listing our community and keeping them up to date on our story. Right? Right,

John Jantsch (16:49): Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Becky Robinson (16:50): So to all of those, you wanna add the third commitment, which is, you said endurance, it’s longevity. Oh. And so we need to commit to showing up with value consistency over a long period of time. John, I’m sure you’ve probably interviewed Dory Clark. Yeah, good friend. Dory Clark says it can take a year of showing up online to get any results at all. And it can take five years to be recognized as an expert. So I think what often happens is people think that they’re gonna come online and start to share something, and it’s gonna be magic, and they’re going to be an overnight success. And that is just not true for many of us. Yeah. I’ve been online since 2009. Yeah. So, and I’m really not all that well known. Right. So it, it’s not likely apart from some kind of magic or as I already mentioned, you know, that you’re already famous, that you’re gonna be able to do something quickly. So we have to show up with value consistently over time for a long time. And then the last one is this added,

John Jantsch (17:47): Let, let me before we, that last one I just went, we just lost half our listeners, because they want, everybody wants a quick fix. Everybody wants an overnight, you know, success story. And I think that I totally 100% agree with you, but isn’t, doesn’t that become a harder sell? I mean, you have so many people out there selling the get rich quick scheme of the day. I mean, even Dory’s book the long game, you know, it’s like, that’s just not a very sexy title . So, so how do you balance that?

Becky Robinson (18:19): Well, it isn’t, but it’s real. So I mean, on the one hand, like I think it balances the frustration like worth doing is going to be challenging, should be. So, you know, when we were exploring how to name the four commitments in the book we did kind of wrestle with is the idea about endurance, is the idea about perseverance was another word that I chose. You know, in the book I tell a story about 500 trees. So I live on a five acre property in Michigan, and it’s beautiful and peaceful and private because 20 plus years ago, a man and his sons chose to plant a lot of trees more than 500. And they chose to wait for them to grow. So if we want to build something beautiful in the world, we can’t expect that it’s going to be instantaneous. So it may not be sexy, but it’s real. Yeah. And I think that it might help set people up to have that realistic view so that they can decide whether or not it’s worth it to make the commitment.

John Jantsch (19:15): Yeah. That reminds me of, uh, a quote, quote I’ll probably get wrong if somebody asked, you know, when’s the best time to plant a tree? And the answer was 20 years ago or today. Meaning, you know, okay, so you did , you haven’t been doing this reach game for 20 years. Start today.

Becky Robinson (19:31): Yes. Yes, exactly.

John Jantsch (19:33): All right. So I cut you off the fourth one.

Becky Robinson (19:35): No problem. The fourth one is one that, you know, sometimes might seem counterintuitive, particularly, you know, if we’re wanting to build the reach of a business and we’re wanting to drive revenue, the idea of generosity as a commitment can seem counterintuitive. And lots of times along the journey, I’ve met people, John, and they say, well, you know, my book’s not out yet. I can’t talk about this. I have to save it back. You know, cherry, I think the more that we can give our ideas away freely to others, the more we will drive people to our work and our message. And people aren’t gonna have any reason to be interested in your work if you don’t make it easily accessible to them. You know, there’s an author, Lilly Zang, she’s a bear. Uh, they’re a Barrett Kohler author. And one of the things they have done is they have taken the content in their book in different ways and shared all of it on LinkedIn.

(20:22): Yeah. And what they’ve seen is, well, people wanna buy the book because they see that there’s value, it’s in pieces that they’ve received and they want the book so that it’s all in one place. Yeah. So, you know, I think like it’s a natural response to think like I shouldn’t give away my best ideas. But what I’ve seen is that when you set your ideas free in the world, they are more likely to grow. I share the story in the book of a guy named David and back in the early, I think it was 1980s, David founded an, founded an idea called Appreciative Inquiry. Appreciative Inquiry is an organizational development approach. And rather than copywriting the idea, he set the idea free for anyone to use. And so as a result, that idea of appreciative inquiry has been used by coaches, consultants, organizations, all around the world. And it might have not been known apart from that. So you really wanna think about if your idea has value and merit, if you set it free, it can make the difference that it was intended to make. And when you think about generosity, it’s not only about give away your ideas, it’s about give away your time, your encouragement, your energy, your support. You know, when we support others in their thought leadership, our thought leadership is more likely to grow as well. Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:36): One of the struggles, I think anybody who looks at your book, I don’t think anybody would disagree. I think where the rub sometimes comes is like, there’s more to do in a day than I can get done or feels like there’s more to do. Right? I mean, we haven’t even talked about actually physically writing the book. So how do you, what’s your relationship with goal setting and you know, reach, you know, having milestones and ways, you know, cuz that’s what I think it comes down to is we’re eventually just gonna chunk all this stuff out. Right?

Becky Robinson (22:02): One thing I say to authors is, as you look at building reach, there are gonna be three possible places you can put something. Either it’s something that you can joyfully sustain yourself, or it’s something that you may choose to outsource if you have funds to do so. Or you may say, this is not for me, not now. So I asked about goal setting. I think one of the most important goals is to be very clear about what you can do and what you can’t do. And to commit to those things that you can joyfully sustain over the long haul. Now sometimes that might change. So in the early part of my business, I was an avid blogger on the archives of weaving influence.com, you’re gonna find like a thousand or more blog posts. And I wrote most of them about four years ago we started a podcast. Now I don’t have as many episodes as you, but that has been our new content mechanism. Mm-hmm. . And so it might not be that you’re making a commitment today, that’s gonna be the one that’s forever. But whatever stage you’re at, just being clear about what, what you can do, rather than taking on way more, I would always also rather have more kind of minimal goals and then find that I can do more than to set really lofty goals and then, uh, you know, fall short of them.

John Jantsch (23:19): Just get overwhelmed. . Right. Yeah. So Becky, tell people where they can. Again, I appreciate you taking a few moments to talk about reach, but tell people where they can connect with you or find your work or find your books.

Becky Robinson (23:30): Sure. So Reach is available at all your favorite online retailers. And if you want me to be giving you a pep talk in your ear, I recorded the audio myself. So the Audible version is available as well. In terms of connecting two main websites, beckyrobinson.com and weavinginfluence.com. If you wanna find my business, go to Weaving influence. If you wanna find me personally, go to Becky Robinson. I have tons of free resources available on both sites. I’d love to have you download one or two. And I’m also on most of the social media channels. Instagram and LinkedIn are my two favorite places to show up. And I would always love to hear from people via email. I’m becky@weavinginfluence.com.

John Jantsch (24:08): Awesome. Well, again, thanks for taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast and hopefully we’ll see you out there on the road one of these days. I’m going to a wedding in Michigan in a few months, so who knows, maybe I’ll bump into you.

Becky Robinson (24:18): It would be amazing to connect. Thank you John.

John Jantsch (24:20): Hey, and one final thing before you go. You know how I talk about marketing strategy, strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the Marketing Strategy Assessment. You can find it @marketingassessment.co, not.com, dot co. Check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketing assessment.co. I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by HubSpot. Look, AI is literally eating the web chat. GPT is more searched than I don’t know, Taylor Swift. Check out HubSpot’s AI powered tools, content assistant and chat spott. They both run on open AI’s GPT model, and both are designed to help you get more done and to grow your business faster. HubSpot’s AI powered content assistant helps you brainstorm, create, and share content in a flash, and it’s all inside a super easy to use CRM now. Chat Spott automates all the manual tasks inside HubSpot to help you arrange more customers close more deals, and scale your business faster. Find out more about how to use AI to grow your business at hubspot.com/artificial-intelligence. That’s hubspot.com/artificial-intelligence.

(01:14): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Josh Bernoff. He’s the bestselling author or ghostwriter of eight business books. He’s contributed to 50 book projects that have generated over 20 million for their authors. He’s formerly Senior Vice President of Idea Development at Forrester, where he spent 20 years analyzing technology and business. We’re gonna talk about his most recent book, Build a Better Business Book: How to Plan, Write, and Promote a Book That Matters. So Josh, welcome to the show.

Josh Bernoff (01:49): It’s great to be on. Good to talk to you.

John Jantsch (01:52): So I’ll just throw out like one really big question to start us off. Okay. And then we’ll hone in on, uh, things, you know, what are the essential elements that a business book needs to be good. How is that for, how is that for a big question, ?

Josh Bernoff (02:06): No, that’s exactly the right big question . And I’d say there are two things, one that everybody understands and one that people don’t understand. The thing that everybody knows you need is an idea. Yeah. That is, you need something that will solve a problem for a specific group of people, and it has to be a differentiated idea that is an idea that hasn’t been heard before. So that’s what people know. What people don’t recognize is that business books are made out of stories about people, stories about business people, about ordinary consumers, about people who have a problem. And you get insight from the way they solve that problem. And unless you’ve collected those stories and shared them in an interesting way, your book’s gonna be boring and it’s not gonna sell.

John Jantsch (02:49): Can a business book, like, I mean, a fiction book, you know, has a narrative and a plot and characters and we get to the end hopefully and go, oh, that was amazing. Can a business book have narrative similar to that? Or is it there just to do some nuts and bolts work?

Josh Bernoff (03:04): It has to have a narrative similar to that. Now we understand this, if you’re reading a business book that’s say a description of Elon Musk’s life or Right. You know, how Netflix was created as a company. But when you’re talking about a business book that solves a problem, there’s a natural order to it in the first chapter. We have to scare the crap out of you by getting you to see that there’s either a problem that you’re gonna have if you don’t follow the book or some opportunity you’re gonna miss out on. That’s the fear and greed options. Yeah. And then after that we described the parts of the solution. We show you how to implement that. We might show you some more detail about how it applies in different situations. This is a natural progression from you have a problem to the solution, to the problem, to the details of the solution. And that’s just as much a narrative as if narrative as if you were reading a novel.

John Jantsch (04:00): All right, let’s some people learn better from the negative. Let’s talk about some business books that are terrible. What are the, without naming names, what, what do they get wrong typically?

Josh Bernoff (04:10): So I don’t know if your listeners have had this experience. I have many times of the business book where you read chapter two and you’re like, gee, that sounds just like chapter one. And then you read chapter four and you’re like, oh my gosh, it’s just the same thing over and over again. Yeah. So there’s a word for what that book ought to be, which is a blog post . So if what you have is a blog post, write a blog post and you’ll save us all. A lot of trouble ideas that are worth writing a book about have to be big. That is, they need to affect a lot of people and they need to have consequences. They need to have elements to them. They need to have some subtlety to it that you need to figure out. And unless you have the ability to do that, you really should just write a blog post.

John Jantsch (04:58): Uh, there are two types of book business books. I read lots and lots of business books as I know you have as well. There are two types of business books that I really like. Some kind of stay in the big idea category. Mm-hmm. , Seth Godin’s books, I think are a great example of always a great idea that you, that he clearly believes in and that you can believe in, but not a whole lot of how to in them. And then there are other prescriptive books which are probably closer to what I write, you know, which is literally a retelling of what I do , you know, in, in the book. Are there different approaches that need to be taken for those two different kinds of books? And feel free to throw in, oh no, there’s four or five other categories too. ,

Josh Bernoff (05:36): Well, in the problem-solving kind of book, which is both of those are the big idea books and the how-to books are basically problem-solving kind of books. I think it’s a mistake to think of them as two different kinds. Okay. They’re really two ends of a continuum. Yeah. Right. So for example, the book I just wrote, right? Build a better business book here. This is a how-to book. There’s 24 chapters. There’s a chapter on covers. There’s a chapter on how to do research. Right. These are all very specific things that you have to learn how to do. If you look at the first book I wrote with Charlene Lee groundswell of posters behind me on the Wall. Yeah. That was a big idea book. And the big idea was that social media wasn’t a toy anymore, and people really need to learn how to take advantage of it. But even there we had to say, okay, if you’re gonna use social media for research purposes, here are the steps involved in that. Or if you’re gonna use social media for marketing, here are the steps involved in that. And unless you have some kind of prescription, then all you’re doing is basically throwing grenades and blowing things up. And while that can be entertaining, it’s not that helpful to people.

John Jantsch (06:43): All right. So I’m, I’m gonna go down the same path. There are two kinds of authors, I think and, and I think a lot of times they fall into maybe business models or how they think about business models. There’s obviously the Malcolm Gladwell giant big idea that’s gonna lead to giant big stages, maybe. Yeah. I wrote my first book, don’t tell my publisher this, but I wrote my first book to really be a platform for selling product and for, you know, bringing, uh, a licensing program, uh, to the world using that methodology. And that was really, the book was a piece, you know, as opposed to, I, in fact, for many years I didn’t even call myself an author necessarily.

Josh Bernoff (07:17): Mm-hmm. . Well, if you wrote a book and you published it, you’re an author, so please call yourself an author. But what people need, first of all, you’re not Malcolm Gladwell. I’m not Malcolm Gladwell. Very few people are Malcolm Gladwell. In fact, I have a section in the first chapter of my book about why you’re not Malcolm Gladwell . That’s funny. So for the rest of us, the success does not come from book sales. Right. That might be a nice little source of income. You might even not suppose you reach a thousand people, is that a failure? Yeah. If those are the right thousand people, that could be an enormous success. So the question is, how will that benefit you? And of course it should start by benefiting the people who read it, but then they’re gonna say, Hey, I should hire this guy. Or, oh, this company is worth looking at. Or this is a different way to look at the world. What vendors can help with it? Oh, look, he’s got one of those vendors he’s associated with. So there are lots of ways that, that you can benefit. I, I guess the simplest way to put it is a book is the largest possible lump of content marketing. Yeah. And just like any other content marketing, it attracts attention by being useful and then it translates into some sort of business for the author.

John Jantsch (08:32): Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, you know, fortunately out of some sort of dumb luck, I actually sold a lot of copies of Duct Tape Marketing as well as it being my kinda launching for a platform. So I kinda lucked into the best of both worlds. I guess l let’s talk about book proposals for a minute. You know, which is a typical organ that a lot of people would use to, uh, get a publisher interested in a book. Boy, that has changed in the last , uh, 20 years. Yeah. Uh, or, or so, um, do publishers care about ideas or do they care about platform? Um, or do you have to have both?

Josh Bernoff (09:05): Well, you have to have both. But platform’s more important, and that’s a shocking thing to say, right. But in the last 20 or 30 years, what I have seen is that some publishers like Wiley explicitly say, you have to prove to us that you can sell 10 or 12 20,000 books on your own. And the other publishers don’t say it quite so starkly, but they believe the same thing. Yeah. And that means, and they’re not gonna help you very much with the selling. You have to provide that yourself. So you need to have a podcast or a blog or regular appearance on CNN or a Forbes, you know, column or whatever. You need to have some sort of a platform to roll the book out. Now a person with a large platform and no ideas isn’t really very interesting, the publishers, because someone has to get something out of the book, but the, they look at the platform first and the idea second. Sadly, it’s true. Yeah.

John Jantsch (09:59): Yeah, yeah. And I think it’s become more true, quite frankly. You know, you mentioned definitely Wiley, for example, I’ve even seen some authors talk about, you know, they had to guarantee that they were gonna sell that . Yes, that’s true. It’s X number. So Yeah, they,

Josh Bernoff (10:14): I can’t resist pointing out here that there are alternatives now.

John Jantsch (10:17): Sure. Well,

Josh Bernoff (10:18): There are hybrid publishers

John Jantsch (10:19): Usually change, right? Yeah,

Josh Bernoff (10:21): Yeah, yeah. You can pay a hybrid publisher to publisher book. I’m this most recent book I did with a hybrid publisher, and I’m not saying that’s the only model. My previous book was done with a traditional publisher. Yeah. And you can even self-publish books on your own through the Amazon platform. And of course that makes a much less of an impact, but if you really gotta get your book out, you don’t need to go through a traditional publisher anymore.

John Jantsch (10:44): Well, I have a few, you know, folks in that, that I know well that have made a whole lot more money on their book by doing self-publishing because it sold really well and they kept 80%

Josh Bernoff (10:54): Phil Jones

John Jantsch (10:55): , Phil Jones is one first one came. Ok. Now,

Josh Bernoff (10:57): Now it’s, but it is hard to make your book catch fire. Yeah, yeah. If you’re doing it, you’re publishing it independently like that. Yeah. The, the traditional publishers have a certain amount of clout and distribution, and the hybrid publishers are helpful within that vein as well.

John Jantsch (11:13): Yeah. So my books are not heavily researched in the, you know, the idea that we had 3000 participants in some sort of study. I mean, my books are really kind of more, here’s my daily knowledge. I mean, here’s what I’ve learned working with ex clients. Is there, again, I don’t think there’s a better approach, but they’re quite different, aren’t they?

Josh Bernoff (11:34): Uh, you know what, you need something that proves that your book is right. Yeah. And I was sitting down and I thought of these ideas and I wrote them down as not sufficient

John Jantsch (11:45): , it might work.

Josh Bernoff (11:47): Yeah. And, you know, everyone does secondary research. This is basically going on the internet and finding quotes and studies and stuff. But you need some sort of primary research. But what you said, the, the, you know, the survey kind of research or data Look, I worked at Forrester. I actually created the program that they used to collect consumer data. That was wonderful to have all of that data. Yeah. But you can write a book that’s based on anecdotes. And if you’re telling the stories of, you know, Sarah, that that changed her marketing program, or Alvin who figured out a better way to, to track attribution, those stories are quite sufficient as primary research. You don’t necessarily need a huge amount of data.

John Jantsch (12:32): Yeah. I guess case studies would fall into that too. I mean, I know people love to see, oh, I’m a business kind of like that. And they did that. Oh, okay. That will work for me.

Josh Bernoff (12:41): Case studies are essential. In fact, I would say when I work with authors and we’re like at the beginning of the book process, the lack of case studies is the biggest problem that they have. So you want to be thinking right at the beginning, where am I gonna get the stories I’m gonna tell, where am I gonna find these interviews? If a book is, let’s say 14 chapters long, it should have 14 case studies in it.

John Jantsch (13:06): So you might even organize the book around what you

Josh Bernoff (13:09): Got. Is I you saying that? Well, I, one way to organize the book is to start every chapter with a story. Yeah. Yeah. It’s actually pretty common to do that. It fact, they’re No, they’re known as Malcolm’s after Malcolm Gladwell . Right. Who’s like the master of this. And people love that because they read it and they’re like, oh yeah, I’m having the same kind of problem that she had. Or Right. Oh man, he’s, he found an interesting way to solve that. I’m gonna learn from that. And I’ll tell you something. Once you tell one of those stories at the beginning of a chapter, whatever you say in the next three sentences, after that, people will believe no matter what it is.

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(15:06): You have, as I noted in your intro, been a ghostwriter on some projects. Mm-hmm. . What are some reasons somebody who has a good idea might use a, a ghostwriter?

Josh Bernoff (15:15): Well, it’s always a question of time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It’s also a question of talent. Some people just don’t feel like they’re good writers. Yeah. But mostly it’s people who could write, but just don’t have the time to do it. And in the cases where I have ghostwritten books and I’ve done three, now they’re all situations where they were senior executives. Right. Very busy people. They had really interesting ideas and sometimes a lot of detail behind it, but they just wanted to hire somebody who would assemble that into a useful book. And what you read there was written on spec based on what the author, the person whose name on the cover asked for. They’ve just outsourced the writing. Just like you might outsource the graphics. Yeah. Or, uh, you know, a, a survey that you did,

John Jantsch (16:01): Let’s talk about editors. The, I think the common belief was that an editor was gonna make your book better. You know, certainly help you devise or get your ideas down. Mm-hmm. , and I’m not talking about copy editing, but you know, kind of big picture editing, it feels like, and this is coming from my experience, that, you know, the editor’s role has been to acquire a book, and that’s about it. And that that input, you know, in a business book, they’re not qualified to really give much input. Mm-hmm. ,

Josh Bernoff (16:26): It’s a question of how busy the people at these publishing houses are. So I, there’s a quote in my book from Holla Heinbach, who’s a, a very well known editor to Hartford Business who says, look, we expect the manuscript to come in ready to publish. Yeah. Um, so they don’t really have the resources to edit your book. Yeah. But that doesn’t mean you don’t need an editor. Most people who work on a good book will hire a developmental editor, and that’s someone whose job is to, to do the work of helping with the ideas, the sequence, the structure, the language, how the chapters are assembled, everything just so that you have a high quality piece of work that’s publishable.

John Jantsch (17:08): Yeah. This is gonna be a hard question to have a definitive answer, but I’m certain you have an opinion on . Yeah. What, what role does the design of the interior pages as well as the cover, play in the success of a book?

Josh Bernoff (17:23): Yeah. Well, let me divide those two. Yeah. Okay. Unless your book has got some sort of unusual elements to it, like, you know, a lot of sidebars or something like that, the interior design usually just as utilitarian and it doesn’t make that much difference. People need to tell when things are heading or subheading, but, but most books are pretty much interchangeable from that perspective.

John Jantsch (17:51): I’ve seen some poor font, I’ve seen some poor font.

Josh Bernoff (17:53): Oh, you can definitely make a mistake there, . If your book, if the, the body text in your book is in San Sarah, you’re making a big mistake. That’s a serious readability problem. Uh, I can’t resist mentioning here too that, that, you know, how do you tell when a book is poorly self-published? It’s the margins. It’s always the margins that are screwed up. You look at the book and you’re like, this doesn’t look. Yes. So the margins are like the dead giveaway, but you mentioned the covers. The cover is important. It’s just as you know, you wouldn’t go out and get married and just like grab a t-shirt off of the, you know, the hanger. You, you’re putting your best face forward there and a striking cover design together with a title that connects with it can really make a book much more recognizable. Yeah. But things are sort of backwards. People don’t buy a book because it has a great cover. They remember a book because it has a great cover, and then that becomes an iconic representation of how great that book was. They read it and then they associate that with a cover that they’re looking at.

John Jantsch (19:03): I, I know for myself, I’m, you know, walking through a bookstore back when we used to do that, used to do that. Yeah. A facing out, you know, book that had a compelling cover. It, it was a stopper, you know, it would be like, oh, I want to at least take a deeper look at that.

Josh Bernoff (19:17): Well, nowadays people are looking at the book on the screen Yeah. And it’s an inch tall.

John Jantsch (19:23): Yeah,

Josh Bernoff (19:23): Yeah, yeah. So the subtle little details of the design don’t become obvious until the person has had it shipped to their house.

John Jantsch (19:30): . Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very true. Let’s talk about another thing that’s become, I think a must audio. Mm-hmm. , if you’re gonna write a book count on doing audio or having audio done, uh, today, I would guess, huh?

Josh Bernoff (19:41): Yes. Audio, you cannot have a book that’s has a full measure of success unless there’s an audiobook to go along with it. Yeah. And people love to consume business books on audio while they’re exercising or commuting, you know, or on an airplane or whatever. So you really have to have that available to them. And in my book, I actually recommend that if the author has got any inclination at all, it’s great if you, the author can record the audiobook. Yeah. Because then your voice and your willingness to communicate the things that are important to you will come across effectively. And even if you know you have a scratchy voice or a nasal voice or something, most people can do a good job with that. Yeah. It’s just, that’s likely to take you 10 or 15 hours and not everybody’s willing to put the time in to do that.

John Jantsch (20:32): Yeah. Well, and, and, and if your goal is to build a community, to build a business around a platform, a larger platform around, I know I find it all the time. People are like, oh, now that I met you, you know, I can hear you in my head already, you know, because I listen to your books. Yeah. So it, it really is, you know, I think it’s a must for if you wanna do other things with the book as well.

Josh Bernoff (20:51): Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:52): Okay. We have exactly 30 seconds left. Let’s talk about promotion of the book . You know, I think a lot of writers, you know, write the book and go, okay, now how do I sell it? Promotion probably starts before that, doesn’t it?

Josh Bernoff (21:03): Yes. You need to plan the promotion. And the biggest mistake that authors make is to write the book and assume that people will find it, even if they don’t promote it. And I got a five step process positioning, what’s the question you answer? How are you gonna get reach? How are you gonna get people like the book to spread it? And how are you gonna get the timing focused? And right around the book launch, that’s P Q R S T, those are the five steps that I recommend people do to prepare for promotion in 30 seconds.

John Jantsch (21:32): , you know, and I was somewhat being facetious because I mean, I think a lot of people do realize that they think the hard part’s writing the book , you know, but you know, what you just outlined in 30 seconds really is an effective way to think about a book plan. Like you would’ve a marketing plan for anything, obviously. But really the best time to start is maybe before you even start writing the book, you know, start building that platform.

Josh Bernoff (21:53): Yeah. Well, people don’t realize, but in most book processes, there’s a period of three to six months when the book is in some sort of production and printing process, and you as the author, don’t have too much to do. That’s exactly when you work on the promotion planning, because the temptation is to sort of relax and say, oh, I’m done. And then the time comes to write and you’re like, oh, crap, I didn’t put anything in place.

John Jantsch (22:19): I’d tell you during Covid, it was 12 to 18 months for forcing some people to get to Yes, it’s true. Get the books out. And it’s like, well, I don’t even remember what I wrote . You know, how am I gonna promote it? Yeah. Well, Josh, it was, uh, great having you stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. You wanna invite people to connect with you and obviously where they can pick up the book.

Josh Bernoff (22:37): Okay. So if people wanna reach me, you want to go to bernoff.com. That’s my website, B E R N O F F.com. I post a blog post there every single weekday, mostly about authors and their issues. And if people are interested in getting the new book, build a Better Business book, you can go to bernoff.com/books, or you can pick that up on Amazon or bookshop.org or wherever you’re used to shopping for books. And by the time this goes live, the audiobook will be available. It’s already available in print and as an ebook.

John Jantsch (23:11): Awesome. And you can tell how long somebody’s been online by the fact that they have their last name come as a website .

Josh Bernoff (23:17): I, I bought it from like a third cousin of mine in Chile , but that was in, that was a long time ago. Yeah.

John Jantsch (23:25): So I, I actually, when all my kids were born, I actually reserved the names, their names. You know, I, I don’t know if they’ve kept them or not, but yeah, you can tell how long somebody’s been online. All right, Josh, again, great having you stop by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Josh Bernoff (23:41): All right. It’s been great to be here, and thanks for giving me the chance to speak with your

John Jantsch (23:44): Audience. Hey, and one final thing before you go. You know how I talk about marketing strategy, strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the Marketing Strategy Assessment. You can find it @marketingassessment.co, not.com, dot co. Check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketing assessment.co. I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get. Got.