nadosi.com

John Jantsch (00:00.984)

So, what if the next big shift in events has nothing to do with virtual versus in-person and maybe everything to do with who or what is actually running the room when it’s live? Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Blue Melnick. He runs Sage Event Management with his wife and business partner Barry Baumgartner. They produce live events for the likes of Tony Robbins and ClickFunnels. And these days, Blue’s focused on what’s next.

an AI co producer called Obi that runs inside a live event built to help small businesses run bigger launches with less overhead. So Blue, welcome to the show.

Blue Melnick (00:41.195)

Thanks, John. I’m really, really excited to be here and talk a little bit about AI, a little bit about events if it makes sense. And yeah, just a a a fun conversation.

John Jantsch (00:47.406)

You bet.

So we all lived, well, if you were around four or five years ago, we all lived through kind of a a giant shift in how events work. a lot of people really were already doing it. A lot of people had to figure it out. what’s telling you that AI is is is actually maybe even a bigger shift and not just another way that we can be more efficient?

Blue Melnick (01:17.397)

Yeah, you know, it’s interesting you you mentioned COVID essentially and and the shift we all had to make from in person events to virtual events. And some of us had to make that shift really, really, really quickly. I think the biggest difference between what happened then and what’s happening with AI is nobody told us at that point that the shift was coming.

John Jantsch (01:30.456)

Right.

Blue Melnick (01:41.877)

Right. Nobody was like, hey, in six months, you’re not going to be able to do in person events anymore. So start preparing. and exactly, exactly. I think, and I think, you know, that’s the good news. because this this shift with AI, I I I mean, I started hearing about this inside of masterminds that we’re a part of inside of conversations with our clients a couple of years ago. Right. it almost was like it was with the advent of essentially,

John Jantsch (01:44.75)

Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Get a Zoom account right now.

John Jantsch (02:05.174)

Mm-hmm.

Blue Melnick (02:09.46)

Chat GPT 3.5 was really where things started to get interesting and people started to notice, coaches started to notice, and you know, people started to talk about prompt cookbooks and how you could generate a year’s worth of content in 17 seconds and things like that. People soon realized that AI slop is a little bit too much of a real thing. But over the course of the last couple of years, it’s gotten progressively better.

And I think for those of us who are running coaching programs, who are running live events, who are helping people with the information that we have in our heads, right? The knowledge that we have so that they, our clients, can take that knowledge and implement it in their business. AI is becoming a real tool that we can use to help get our clients.

Faster results more effectively. Yeah. Most most people talk about when they talk about AI still today, you hear most people talk about how I can be more productive as a result of AI, right? I can get more done. I can do this with it. I can do this. I can do that. I, I, I, I, I. And I really think, funny enough, I really think that the key to AI making a huge difference for a lot of people is.

John Jantsch (03:19.918)

Yeah.

Blue Melnick (03:36.852)

Is turning that and not seeing what AI can do for me, but seeing what I can do with AI for my clients. and that that’s where we’re seeing a huge shift. And the cool thing is, like, you know, like you, the the original question, which was how is this one different and possibly bigger? COVID went away, right? Virtual events are still a thing, but you can also now go back and do in-person events if you want.

I think AI, with AI, the genie’s out of the bottle. You know, like that’s that’s sticking around. It’s not like in a couple of years we’re not gonna have AI with us anymore. I think that is just gonna become more and more and more prevalent. And I mean, not to be not to be a doomsday person, but I think clients and coaches and consultants who don’t start to integrate tools that help their clients get results faster with AI.

Are going to start to see a decline in business. And it’s going to be slow and gradual. For some, it may be like paper cuts, but for some, it may be much bigger than that.

John Jantsch (04:38.956)

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and I think what’s what’s gonna happen, what we’re telling people and coaching people on is that you know, clients are starting to figure out businesses. We work primarily small, mid-sized businesses, starting to figure out they can use some of these tools and they are sort of haphazardly using some of these tools. But I think the real winner in the coaching consulting space is gonna be the people that show them how to do it right, how to how to actually, you know, put leadership first instead of the technology first.

and that’s really I think a great I think that’s one of the greatest opp I’ve been doing this thirty years. I think it’s one of the greatest opportunities for consulting. that that that’s you know, that’s come come before me at least.

Blue Melnick (05:23.287)

Totally. And you know, I think I I saw something interesting on on Instagram or I don’t remember if it was Instagram or Facebook recently, but an old client of ours posted something online and and they were like, This is so amazing. I just vibe coded a whole new CRM and I got rid of my platform that I was spending hundreds of dollars a month on. It wasn’t a big number, right? It was like

John Jantsch (05:43.054)

Right.

Blue Melnick (05:50.552)

Two, 300 bucks a month on whatever they were using. And I have to tell you, I thought to myself in that moment, I’m a bit of a nerd, I’m a bit of a nerd. I love technology. I, I mean, I’m I’ve been vibe coding new tools like crazy. But when I saw that, I thought to myself, that’s insane. That is the one, there are a lot of things that I want nothing to do with having to manage the infrastructure of. And one of them is the backbone of my business, which is our CRM, right? Like

John Jantsch (06:19.725)

Mm-hmm.

Blue Melnick (06:20.757)

I don’t want to deal with the, I mean, I know what I would have to deal with. I don’t want to have to deal with the C the SMTP servers and the the all of the stuff behind the scenes. And sure you can do it, but as a you know, as a small business owner, isn’t our time better spent on better things, like getting more results for our clients? Come on.

John Jantsch (06:27.789)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (06:39.96)

Yes.

John Jantsch (06:45.135)

Yeah, and I I think one of the things that people are missing that, you know, there there was this time when, like, QuickBooks is going away, Salesforce is going away, all these things are going away. I think they’re only going to get stronger because we’re going to get more dependent because they’re building all the AI into it natively. And so all of a sudden it’s like, why would you build any in fact, not only why would you, but I can’t ever leave. You know, because my entire business now, you know, depends on this this tool. So I think some of the bigger SAS files.

forms are actually going to win.

Blue Melnick (07:16.699)

I I agree with you. And I also think that there’s an opportunity for those of us in the coaching and consulting space to create you know, to to leverage AI and help our help our clients get the results that we provide, right? The the knowledge that we have much, much faster. my my wife calls it the moment of need.

John Jantsch (07:36.055)

It’s just

Yeah.

Blue Melnick (07:43.381)

Right. When a a small business owner, an entrepreneur wakes up at two o’clock in the morning and they can’t get back to sleep and their brain starts racing. I’m sure this has never happened to you.

John Jantsch (07:49.198)

Yeah. I I I had one of those last week, two thirty in the morning, yes. I I just got up, I was like, why fight it?

Blue Melnick (07:54.36)

Right. Exactly. Right. So but you’re your so your brain starts racing, and who’s the last person that you can call at that moment? it’s our coach, right? You know, I’m not getting on the phone with my coach at that time of the day. so instead you log into chat or you log into Claude. And I think that that’s an opportunity that should be taken advantage of by those of us in the coaching and consulting space. Because

John Jantsch (08:05.167)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You’re right.

Blue Melnick (08:24.939)

Claude and Claude and Chat and you know, Grok and Gemini, all of them, they’re fantastic and they’re great tools. But they really don’t have the experience, the expertise that that you have, John, that I have, that your listeners have, right? All of us as individuals, we’ve got this incredible expertise that is very specific. a long time ago, I’m sure you’ve read it.

John Jantsch (08:37.942)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Blue Melnick (08:51.515)

Some of us have read it a thousand times, but think of Think and Grow Rich came out, right? And there’s the the segment inside that chap inside that book on specialized knowledge versus generalized knowledge. And specialized knowledge is what everybody tends to pay money for, right? That’s that’s why they come to us and hire us for whatever it is that you or your audience charges. It’s specialized knowledge, not general knowledge. And I think it’s

John Jantsch (08:55.183)

Sure, sure, sure.

John Jantsch (09:12.44)

Mm-hmm.

Blue Melnick (09:18.825)

Interesting that the big thing that AI companies are aiming towards, right? The big ones, the Frontier Labs, as you will as they call themselves, they’re aiming for this thing called AGI. Right? Have you have you heard the the right? So AGI is are is it artificial? But the thing that’s important is the GI, general intelligence.

John Jantsch (09:33.175)

Mm-hmm. Sure, of course, of course, yes.

Blue Melnick (09:46.068)

So everybody’s like, this is gonna be amazing. We’ll have this, you know, AGI. It’s gonna be a moment, it’s like the, you know, the moment when Skynet opens up and takes over the world. I’m like, or maybe there’s an opportunity for us to use AI with our specialized knowledge and grow our business and help our clients get results. And I think that’s really where where we’re headed, you know? And I agree with you, it’s a huge opportunity.

John Jantsch (10:08.815)

So so Yeah. So so let’s talk a little bit about OB. first off, I mentioned it in the intro. what the heck is it?

Blue Melnick (10:13.408)

Mm-hmm.

Blue Melnick (10:18.231)

So a couple of years ago, Barry and I, we have a coaching program where of course we help people help people launch a high-ticket offer through the power of a virtual live event. And we we’ve been doing what coaches in group programs do forever, which is we take our knowledge, we teach you, and then you have to take that information, translate it to your own business, and then apply it.

John Jantsch (10:31.535)

Mm-hmm.

Blue Melnick (10:45.135)

And you know, as a coach, as a consultant, I’ve I’ve said the same thing most coaches and consultants have said for, you know, years, which is I’m responsible for my part, which is I’m gonna deliver all of the information to you. You’re responsible for your part, which is the implementation. But the problem is that gap between knowledge and implementation, we think of as something that’s like, it’s just like like just this this far apart, right? It’s so close. But for our clients, it’s

It’s like the Grand Canyon. It is a massive, massive, massive gap that is where people fall down. It’s why, you know, courses, generally speaking, have like a sub 20% completion rate. And in our inside, we were seeing a lot of the same things inside of our coaching program. And we were like, okay, well, what if we were to use AI not to create an open ended, like custom GPT?

Right. Like this, you know, just open chat thing, but rather a way to use AI and our knowledge to guide our clients through a specific process or what we call a journey and ask them questions so that we have the context that is most important, like, hey, John, who do you serve? How do you help them? you know.

John Jantsch (11:58.095)

Mm-hmm.

Blue Melnick (12:08.075)

Where do they live in the world? What are they trying to accomplish? How are they better after they’ve worked with you than they were before? Things like this. And then use that context to continue to grow and build on itself with the specific thing that I want you to do next in order to get the outcome that I’ve promised if you work with me. So inside of our coaching program, we started to implement these AI steps.

That we’re like, okay, first you’re gonna teach we’re gonna teach you how to determine who your right fit client is, create a profile for them, figure out what it is that they’re struggling with at two o’clock in the morning, and figure out what it is that they’re trying to achieve. And all using a combination of AI with our know-how, right? 20 years of having done this. Then we’re gonna go from that to, okay, how is it? What’s the framework that you have? What processes do you have to help your clients achieve the result?

John Jantsch (12:52.138)

Mm-hmm.

Blue Melnick (13:04.575)

Then we’re going to go from that to now, how do we package your offer? Right. And all of this goes in order. And as we go from one thing to the other, we taught people how to do this previously over the course of like a six-month period. Now, what we do is we guide them through this process where they’re answering a series of questions, and rather than having to apply it to figure out what their process is or

John Jantsch (13:18.22)

Right.

Blue Melnick (13:30.698)

apply it to figure out what their coaching program or their offer or their high-ticket offer is, we just provide it to them. So we teach them the know-how so they understand how to do it. But then we rather than them have to translate, rather than them having to, you know, cross that gap, that chasm that is the Grand Canyon, we literally just grab them and drag them across. Right. Maybe we zip, maybe I should I should use the analogy of a zip line. But that’s what OB is. So we’re using AI.

To ask our clients specific questions to help them get the result that they came to us to get in the first place. And to get that result faster, quicker, and easier. So that in a one-year coaching program, in our case, your coaching program doesn’t have to be a year, your program doesn’t have to be a year, but whatever it is that you’re doing with them, you’re able to do it faster and more effectively so that they get the outcome. Because here’s the thing.

John Jantsch (14:18.509)

Mm-hmm.

Blue Melnick (14:28.363)

You know, we’ve all gotten refund requests from maybe a course. Like if you sell a digital course, you’ve you’re you’re used to refund requests. When people get a result, they don’t ask for a refund.

John Jantsch (14:33.27)

Great.

John Jantsch (14:38.966)

Right. Right. You know, and even as somebody who has sold courses for twenty five years, you know, nothing frustrated me more than the fact that that I know that only a percentage of people were doing anything with it, whether they asked for a refund or not, you know, they they, you know, in some cases they just felt guilty. You know, it’s like, it’s my my decision to buy it. I just didn’t use it. I mean, we’ve all we’ve all probably done that ourselves. talk talk to me a little bit about the state of the

the course and the coaching industry in general. I know that’s a that’s a a big topic to to to open up, but you know, one thing that of course people make lots of proclamations, but one thing people say with AI is like, well, nobody’s gonna do a course now because nobody wants to watch a 40 minute video. They’ll just tell AI to tell it what’s in the 40 minute video. it tell me well, just from your opinion, where that’s wrong, where that’s right, what that means.

Blue Melnick (15:34.796)

Yeah. Well, I think there’s a few things. first off, I think courses as they used to exist, let’s just say yesterday, I I do think are gonna die a slow death over the course of the coming years. And for some people, they’ve died a really, really quick death because people just stopped buying. I think there’s a number of reasons for that. one of the reasons is for those of us who have recorded courses in the past, you know, it’s it’s kind of like birthing a book.

John Jantsch (15:43.629)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:50.957)

Mm-hmm.

Blue Melnick (16:03.285)

Right. It’s it’s a slow process. It takes time. And once you’ve recorded it, you’re like, I never want to do that again. Like we, I I mean, I don’t ever want to stand in front of a camera with no audience and record my content again. So that’s one problem. And the the flip side to that is people don’t, to your point, don’t want to sit through a 40-minute long video and then have to translate. So I think courses as they existed yesterday are gone. But here’s the thing.

John Jantsch (16:03.733)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

John Jantsch (16:24.212)

Mm-hmm.

Blue Melnick (16:32.083)

Over the course of the last, let’s say 120 years or so, and I know that’s a big number for some of us, but over the course of the last 120 years in the education space, we’ve seen monumental changes, right? television, radio, books on tape, VHS, CD-ROMs, not in this order, obviously, the internet.

do you I don’t know if you remember when Stanford released their entire course curriculum in 2012 on the internet for free. Everybody was like, my God, courses are dead. Stanford’s not even charging for their stuff. Right? So this has happened over time multiple times. The the prediction of our knowledge being necessary, it’s the end of that. And every single time, what happens when you go back and look at history is

John Jantsch (17:08.044)

Right.

Blue Melnick (17:25.269)

The desire for knowledge, the desire for people to take you through a specific journey never changes. What changes is the delivery mechanism. So how our clients get information or desire information or transformation is changing, right? TikTok is a part of that, you know, or Instagram reels or Facebook reels, the shorts are a part of that. AI is a part of that. They want the information and the transformation faster. So

In order to keep up, in order to keep moving forward, we as course creators have to deliver that information in a bespoke way, right? So how do you deliver customized knowledge to let’s say you sell your course to a hundred people? You don’t want to sit down with a hundred people and do this one to one. This is why we sell courses, right? But how do you take that information, provide them bite-sized chunks, the equivalent of an Instagram reel? So they feel as though,

That’s interesting. And now they answer a few questions and they get an output that is customized to them based on what they just learned. That’s a different way of learning, which is where the where your audience is right now. They’re looking for that dopamine hit. They’re looking for that instant gratification that, you know, scrolling, doing this with our phone provides, but they’re looking for it from you because they still need it.

John Jantsch (18:31.404)

Right.

John Jantsch (18:45.524)

Yeah.

Blue Melnick (18:51.371)

Right. It’s not like all of a sudden ChatGPT and Claude have gotten so much better and now everybody’s getting results. That hasn’t happened. Right? Just because you have a genius in your pocket doesn’t mean you know what to ask it. So

John Jantsch (19:03.318)

Yeah, yeah, in fact I in fact I think people are working harder and getting less, quite frankly, out of out of that.

Blue Melnick (19:07.963)

I yeah, I wouldn’t disagree with you. I saw a study recently, or I read a study yester recently that talked about how companies that have done huge implementations of AI in their business are actually seeing their workforce be less productive than they were before, which is I think surprising to many people.

John Jantsch (19:28.716)

Yeah, I think I think the I’ve said all along, you know, everybody talks about, all the changes in marketing and I and the one they they often forget is the fact that what’s changed the most is the way people buy now or get to buy or expect to buy. And I think that what you just pointed to, consumption behavior, you know, of course is is probably what should be driving, you know, how we’re thinking, you know, about them as much as content.

Blue Melnick (19:54.23)

Yeah, and you know, I was I was doing some more research. And of course, some of this research is a little self-serving, right? Because I have a solution to what I think is a problem. and I think we’ve found, I mean, this isn’t a whiteboard solution where we’re like, we think this is gonna work like this. I mean, we’ve been using this solution inside of our coaching program for two years. And we’re seeing like massive, massive results. And the thing that I’m that I’m loving about it, truthfully,

And this is selfish, right? But I inside of our coaching program, we used to year over year, because it’s a group coaching program, there’s like 150 people in the program. We used to see about a 30% renewal year over year. And since we’ve started implementing Obi inside of our coaching program, our coaching program renewals have increased to 45% or more every time we go through a renewal cycle. And we’ve gone, we’ve been through three of them now since we released this platform.

John Jantsch (20:32.47)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (20:53.494)

Hmm.

Blue Melnick (20:54.545)

And it’s the only thing we’re doing different. Like it’s not like all of a sudden it’s not cheaper. We’re not one of those coaching programs where when you join the second year, it’s like 50% off or anything like that. It’s the same price year two as it was year one. with the same promise, incidentally. So you know, I think I think that says obviously says a lot. but yeah, I think consumption is really important. We have to see what it is that our clients

John Jantsch (20:59.062)

Yeah.

Blue Melnick (21:23.625)

Are wanting, what the audience is is looking for, and shifting to delivering it in that way so that they get the support they need in their moment of need. So this leads to just another thing that I was working on recently, just really, really quickly. I think this is an interesting one. I was looking at the amount of money spent on education, essentially on online education over the course of the last 30 years or so. And

It does this like that. Like it’s, and it’s just like it’s hockey stick, right? It’s just like keep going. So I overlaid something else over top of that, which was I was like, okay, now let’s compare the amount of information that was accessible on the internet for free at the beginning of that compared to now, right? Where now is let’s just say 100%, and back at the beginning is a percentage of it.

John Jantsch (21:59.393)

Mm.

Blue Melnick (22:22.463)

And when you overlay the amount of information that was free over top of the amount of information that people are spending on information, they both go hand in hand. Right. And when you overlay that with a third piece of information, which is the amount of folks who have digital devices that can access that information, all three of them go up in the same level, which is counterintuitive because you would think, everything’s free on the internet. Why would they need me?

John Jantsch (22:32.717)

Yeah.

Blue Melnick (22:53.151)

And actually think the opposite is true, right? Everything’s free on the internet, which is why they need you to provide the specific transformation that they’re wanting rather than this general piece of information that’s out there called Chat GPT or Claude. so yeah, I think that’s where we’re at. That’s you know a little bit of a soapbox, but I’ll I’ll stop.

John Jantsch (23:02.806)

Okay.

John Jantsch (23:09.686)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (23:16.692)

No, I’ve I agree with you a hundred percent. I unfortunately we gotta wrap up today. So I know that you are launching a program coming up soon. So you wanna tell us about that, where people can connect with you, find out more about Obi.

Blue Melnick (23:30.805)

Yeah, so listen, if you want to learn more about how I think course creators are about to make a comeback, my my lovely wife, Barry Baumgartner, is hosting a free training. you can get access to that at changecourse.ai. if you want to learn more about Obi, Obi is going to be released in some in the month of September. I’m not sure when you’re listening to this, but it’s going to be released in September 2026.

We’re using it internally. We have about 60 beta testers right now who are using it. And you can find out more by going to obai or sorry, obio, or on Instagram or Facebook at obai. So lots of ways to find out more about us. but we’d love to yeah, answer any questions you have. We’re having some fun over on our Instagram channel recently. Of course.

John Jantsch (24:15.566)

Awesome.

Blue Melnick (24:25.767)

we’re we’re using AI to produce a lot of the content, but very openly, right? Like we’re not trying to hide it, but we are trying to have a little bit of fun with some of the tools that are available to us as creators these days. So check it out.

John Jantsch (24:37.634)

Yeah. That’s awesome. Well, Blue, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing podcast and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Blue Melnick (24:46.027)

Thanks for having me.

Clone of Why Leaders Need Better Perspective, Not More Data

Clone of Why Leaders Need Better Perspective, Not More Data written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch The Full Episode

Overview

Back from the vault because the AI angle has only gotten sharper since it first ran. John Jantsch talks with leadership expert Cornelia Choe about a concept she calls perspective blindness. Choe explains the common phenomenon of believing you see the whole picture when you’re really only looking at a slice of it, and how leaders can close that gap.

AI has made data cheap, and that’s a real opportunity when you pair it with good judgment. Choe points to a survey where 39% of CIOs believed their company was ready for change, while only 7% of COOs at those same companies agreed. Gaps like that are fixable once you see them.

If you run a small business, lead an agency, or manage a team through constant change, this conversation gives you a practical way to get everyone looking at the same picture. Choe’s GEM framework walks through exactly how.

Guest Bio

Cornelia Choe is an international leadership expert, global keynote speaker, and Thinkers50 Radar honoree. She’s the founder of The Leaders Alliance and has advised leaders at organizations including the United Nations and the White House. She’s the co-author, with Marshall Goldsmith, of The Panoramic Leader: How Great Leaders See Differently. Choe grew up in 11 different places across three continents by age 18, an experience that shapes her work on mental maps and blind spots in leadership.

Key Takeaways

AI made information easy to get, but didn’t make judgment easier. More than half of employees using AI don’t verify what it gives them.
Perspective blindness is believing you see the whole picture when you only see a piece of it.
Choe’s GEM framework: get up close to people who think differently, establish a trusted relationship over time, map how your view shifts.
Microtranslations matter: Two leaders can look at the same data and reach opposite conclusions if they never explain their reasoning to each other.
Outside perspective is one of the fastest ways to spot a blind spot no one inside a company can see.

Great Moments

[00:02] – John opens with the question driving the episode: what if the thing limiting growth isn’t what you’re doing, but what you can’t see.
[03:53] – Choe defines perspective blindness and why no leader can track every change happening around them.
[07:06] – John asks whether perspective blindness even applies to a small business with no board. Choe says it matters more for small teams, not less, since they have to stay nimble and keep close to the market.
[08:56] – Choe shares her own story of moving from Minnesota to Seoul at age 10 and having to rebuild her entire mental map.
[16:01] – A case study of a new CEO who nearly quit after conflict with the founder who’d just left the company. A facilitated conversation with another former founder, someone who’d been through the same identity shift, is what turned it around.

Memorable Quotes

“The problem a lot of leaders have is that when you’re a founder or a CEO, the higher you go in the hierarchy, the less you hear of what people actually think, and you hear more of what people think you want to hear.” — Cornelia Choe
“What we’re really lacking and losing today is judgment, and it shows up across the board with all employees using AI.” — Cornelia Choe
“We call this optimistic fear: acknowledging that there is fear and there could be danger, but still using that fear to propel you forward to get close to people who think differently.” — Cornelia Choe
“Things are changing so quickly that the disruptors are being disrupted, and that’s a hard identity shift, because where you get your pride and your self-worth is from believing you’re the entrepreneur, the founder, the disruptor.” — Cornelia Choe
“When you get closer to the people around you, even the ones you’re hesitant to approach, you see the situation much clearer, and you’re able to find a lot more solutions.” — Cornelia Choe

Resources

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:02.158)

So, what if the thing limiting your next stage of growth is not what you’re doing, but what you can’t see? Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Cornelia Choe. She’s an international leadership expert, global keynote speaker, and thinkers 50 radar honoree. She’s the founder of The Leaders Alliance and co-author with Marshall Goldsmith of a book we’re going to talk about today, The Panoramic.

leader, how great leaders see differently. So Cornelia, welcome to the show.

Cornelia Choe (00:35.545)

Thank you so much, John. It is such a pleasure to share this conversation to be on the show with you.

John Jantsch (00:41.984)

So I’m looking at you in the camera right now in the mirror is is that the San Francisco transit system behind you?

Cornelia Choe (00:50.57)

It is not. It is a a map of it is a map of stars in the sky above Hawaii. Because it’s it’s there to help us really pinpoint what’s out there and to keep our eyes open to what’s moving across the sky and to know that there are always indicators out there if we look, we turn left and right and see.

John Jantsch (00:51.042)

What is it? What is that map?

John Jantsch (00:57.784)

Huh. okay. All right.

John Jantsch (01:16.874)

that’s that sounds like that sounds like a very intentional tie into your book somehow. And here I thought it was just a a poster, a piece of art. So y you know, your book is coming out at a time when business owners are probably more buried in data than ever, right? I mean AI tools and dashboards and customer analytics. So what still are we not seeing?

Cornelia Choe (01:20.556)

What’s around it?

Cornelia Choe (01:33.452)

Yeah.

Cornelia Choe (01:41.684)

No, John, it’s really convenient to get a lot of data today. And AI has really commoditized data. And for so long we’ve looked to leaders to give us the right information and for them to be chosen because they’re smart and because they have the right experience. And today this knowledge is really accessible at our fingertips.

John Jantsch (01:42.158)

Ha ha ha.

John Jantsch (01:47.372)

Right, right.

Cornelia Choe (02:08.651)

But what we’re really lacking and losing today is judgment. And it comes both across the board with all employees using AI. And it really depends on how we use AI. We can take what we’re given for granted and move forward with that. But we have surveys showing that more than 50% of employees using AI have made mistakes in their work by using it.

That over 50% of employees don’t verify what they get from AI. And what that’s doing is really dulling our judgment. And just like after the Industrial Revolution, we’ve had to go to the gym because we’re not getting enough physical movement. We may have to then go to the mind gym to keep our senses sharp. And so this can happen across all employees in a company, but

Especially for the senior management team. What’s really tricky about AI and change, we’ve had so much change in the world today between economic and political upheaval, is that we’re not able to see how change affects all of our different team members. And they’re all changing in different ways, but we go forward thinking that everyone sees our company the way we see it. And we’re having a lot of

dysfunctions amongst teams. And there was another survey showing that CIOs and CTOs, 39% of them think their companies are ready. But in these same companies, COOs think only only 7% of CO COOs think that their companies are ready. So there is a massive disconnect there. So it’s

John Jantsch (03:53.336)

So you you actually have a term for this, I think, that you call perspective blindness. and so so let let’s define that. Tell me what it is. and then what does it look like when a business really has that without knowing it?

Cornelia Choe (03:58.156)

Yes, yes.

Cornelia Choe (04:08.673)

So perfect per perspective blindness is a state in which we believe that we see the whole picture. And today the problem is there’s so much change. There’s change happening all over to the left and to the right. And no leader can understand all of that change. We don’t know how it’s affecting all our different team members, and we don’t know everything that’s happening out there because there’s so much of it. And before change was really

Disruption of the status quo. We had the status quo, and then we had a beginning, a middle, and end of change, and then we had a new normal. The problem with today is that we don’t have a new normal. Before we can adjust to a change, another starts. We have tariffs, we have a war, we have supply chain disruptions, we have lack of access to materials that we need. And so the fact that we don’t

John Jantsch (05:00.76)

Well, so there is there is a there is a new normal, it just lasts two days, right?

Cornelia Choe (05:05.463)

There is a new normal the last two days, but it’s probably enough not enough time for us to feel comfortable and get used to it because we’re always looking for what’s changing next. And it’s it’s changing our state of mind. And so because so many things are changing, we’re not able to see everything. Everyone just sees a piece of the puzzle, which is why we need to bring together and understand different perspectives and kind of add those to our map, so to say, the way we see the world.

But when we think that what we see is the complete picture or that everyone else sees that way, we’re gonna make bad decisions. We’re going to we’re gonna assume that things are rosier than they are, that suppliers are gonna be able to deliver, that customers are always gonna be there. And let me share a story with you. I was talking to an exec an executive, and this executive was asked by senior management to hire someone.

Who was an expert at AI to improve their product and to work alongside them in a software as a service company. And this executive complied and hired this person, but then later got rid of them saying, Look, I’m the disruptor. And it’s it’s true that that person was the disruptor about a decade or more ago when software moved from CD-ROMs online.

And so that was a massive disruption. But today things are changing so quickly that the disruptors are being disrupted. And that’s really hard as a change in identity because where do we get our pride and our self-worth? It’s from what we believe we are: the entrepreneur, the founder, the disruptor. But things are changing so quickly that even disruptors need to constantly update their map to see.

to to stay with reality and what’s really changing around them.

John Jantsch (07:06.552)

Well, I I know from looking at your bio, you’ve worked with leaders at United Nations, White House, but does the same problem show up in your view w with that business that has maybe eight people, no board? I mean, does it look different?

Cornelia Choe (07:21.267)

Absolutely, John. I think it is even more relevant because when you’re working in a small company, you need to be extremely nimble. You need to pivot more. You need to keep your pulse on the market and on changes even more. And so I would say go and meet more of the customers, even if you find that you’re in a very stable niche, for example. There might be adjacent

Areas where you could expand your product or another customer segment that could be even more interested in your product. And things are changing all the time. So there are new opportunities being created, but you could also get disrupted very easily. So this matters even more to entrepreneurs. And I do work with a lot of founders. And and this is something that founders, I think, inherently do better, are better at at the beginning.

of their journey when they’re looking to find product market fit. But as we get more stable and we grow, then we need to continue to adapt both the company and of course our identities on what we contribute to our companies, which is which is hard.

John Jantsch (08:29.42)

Yeah. It it’s funny when you start out, everything’s a hypothesis, right? So you you know, you’re you’re willing to experiment and change, but yeah, you you get entrenched. In fact, one of the things you talk about, you mentioned the word map, and you talk a lot about this idea of mental maps that we operate from. So how how are these maps that that are ingrained, maybe from childhood or certainly from another point in your career, how do how are those creating blind spots, do you think?

Cornelia Choe (08:34.58)

Exactly.

Yeah.

Cornelia Choe (08:42.103)

Mm-hmm.

Cornelia Choe (08:56.951)

So I’ll give you an example from my own life. I was raised in Minnesota until I was 10. And I had a pretty happy childhood out in nature, a lot of friends. And a lot of my friends were blonde. So I thought I was blonde growing up because when you’re small, you don’t think about it. You just think you are whatever you see. And then I moved to Korea, to South Korea, to Seoul when I was 10. And

John Jantsch (09:13.206)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (09:22.318)

Yeah.

Cornelia Choe (09:23.411)

I had the shock of my life. The first question I asked my mom at the airport was, where did they find so many people with black hair? And how do they get them all in the same room? I had never seen anything like that before. And I had to completely rewrite my map of who I was and how I was supposed to be. And I was promised a whole world of loving relatives who were waiting for me. That well, that wasn’t true. They were totally confused by who I was. They told me I looked Korean, but I wasn’t acting. And I

couldn’t figure out how I was supposed to act. And so we’re all, yeah, we’re definitely not enough and not not very well at all. And so we we all carry around inside an an operating system like an internal GPS guiding us on what works, what doesn’t, which we get from our successes and our failures that we’ve lived through.

John Jantsch (09:55.84)

I mean prob probably didn’t speak Korean, I imagine, at that time, at that point or in your life. Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:12.013)

Mm-hmm.

Cornelia Choe (10:19.659)

And I we call this our internal map. And this is something we need to update. And for me, when I got to Korea, it it got really confusing until one time I saw an interview with an actress who was a single mother, and she was saying that she’s gone through a lot of moments of anger and sadness and joy. And it helps her become better at her craft and a better actress because she’s able to understand more of her characters. And I thought.

That’s my job. That’s what I need to do is to understand a lot of perspectives and the people around me and update my map. And it was only when I was willing to change my map and start to get to know people around me and how they think and how different it was and to absorb that myself, to be able to willing to, you know, to change how I see that I was able to make friends and really find a lot more success in.

John Jantsch (11:15.318)

Mm.

Cornelia Choe (11:17.801)

in every subsequent move. And I’ve lived in eleven different places around the world and three continents by the time I was eighteen. So I’ve had a lot of practice in this. But it it really helps when we adjust our map and our view to the world and the to the people around us, even if we don’t understand it at the beginning, which is true today.

John Jantsch (11:24.717)

Yes.

John Jantsch (11:37.246)

Yeah. Th that’s really interesting you talk about travel. I mean, that to me has always been one of the most eye opening experiences as you experience other cultures in other places and you you, you know, you don’t know about them. So part of your mental map is is ignorance of, you know, other cultures and things. And so to get that that opening I’ve always found that that that really opens your eye d your your mind to new ideas. So we’ve talked a little about poked a little bit of what the problem is. how do we solve it?

Cornelia Choe (11:53.227)

Yeah.

Cornelia Choe (12:03.969)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (12:06.134)

Like all good consultants, I think you have a framework that you know, of how to approach it. So you want to unpack that a little bit?

Cornelia Choe (12:09.174)

Yeah.

Cornelia Choe (12:13.185)

Sure, it’s a very intuitive framework. And we call it Gem. And it stands for get up close, establish meaningful bonds, and map your evolving perspective. So that basically boils down to step one, where we’re actually willing to get up close to people who think differently. And there’s no pressure, just talk to them, hear their point of view. And we use a lot of

Curiosity and courage at this point, just to approach them and say, hey, you know, do you want to meet for a coffee? If that’s not possible or if it’s dangerous for some reason, then we can potentially read about them or talk to someone we know in common and just to get an idea of what they’re thinking and try to put ourselves in their shoes. And the problem a lot of leaders have is that the the when you’re a founder or a CEO, and the higher you go in the hierarchy.

the less you hear of what people actually think and you hear more of what people think you want to hear. And so creating a relationship of trust, which is step number two to really deepen this relationship instead of a one-off encounter and say, look, I’m happy to meet from time to time and to update your map according to what they see. That’s extremely helpful because that’s when you really get an understanding of what your stakeholders or the people around you are really thinking. And

John Jantsch (13:12.632)

Sure.

John Jantsch (13:16.182)

Mm-hmm.

Cornelia Choe (13:39.308)

That’s what helps you update your map, which is step three. If you talk about a subject in common, then you’ll be able to say, okay, this is where that subject is on my map. They see it differently. I’m going to add on to it. I didn’t know that this was possible. And I get this comment a lot in the circles I lead of leaders who are are chosen to work together into small circles because.

They think differently, not necessarily because they’re from a different background. You could be from the exact same town, but if you think differently and solve your problems together, then you you’re able to see so much more of so many more options and possibilities. And we we call this optimistic fear because it’s acknowledging that there is fear and there could be danger, but still using that fear to propel you forward to get close and

John Jantsch (14:13.74)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (14:25.942)

Mm.

Cornelia Choe (14:35.691)

To get more information to talk to people. And when you get closer, you see the situation much clearer. And you’re able to find a lot more, many more solutions. And to give you an example, I was working with a CEO who took over after the departure of a founder of a company. And we found out that this founder was still controlling some of the operations with through their relationship with employees that they’ve known for a very long time.

John Jantsch (15:02.539)

Mm-hmm.

Cornelia Choe (15:05.847)

And the the new CEO was extremely angry and was thinking of leaving. And they were really succumbing to fight, flight, or freeze and the fear of the unknown. What what’s gonna happen to this company? Because I’m not in control and who’s the real CEO. And so I paired them up with another founder who had just left their company, who had just sold their company. And

This CEO agreed to have a very open mind and just to be very curious during the meeting. And the CEO found that it’s so incredibly hard to leave a company. It this founder felt like they left a part of their body behind. And yeah. And were it was able to really patch things up with their own founder and bring the company to the next level of growth.

John Jantsch (15:51.032)

Well yeah.

John Jantsch (16:01.43)

So so when I heard you talking about the the framework and kind of week to week what that might look like for a business owner, I I I feel like we talked mostly about like people on your team, but that would really be true for customers too, right? I mean, so many of the conversations we have cuss with customers are we are providing a report, providing a service, checking in, it’s all transactional. But we’re not probably doing these things that could expand the map of how the customer actually views the world.

Cornelia Choe (16:05.495)

Mm-hmm.

Cornelia Choe (16:13.803)

Yeah.

Cornelia Choe (16:24.471)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (16:30.976)

Or how or what they consider is value based on what we think we’re delivering value. Would you say that that that a business owner or an entrepreneur should probably include customers in those conversations, shouldn’t they?

Cornelia Choe (16:42.855)

Yeah, absolutely, John. I think we’re we’re looking at employees, but we’re actually looking at the realm of stakeholders in general because customers change and their needs change. And we may be able to fulfill a a different need and expand on our product, for example. And so this is a great thing to do in general, but all the more so because things are changing.

John Jantsch (16:50.849)

Right.

Cornelia Choe (17:08.159)

so much in the lives of the customers as well. So I would say get up close to your employees and your customers, but also f with your suppliers, your distributors, and even an influencer who you don’t know who’s far away, who’s bringing people to your products or not.

John Jantsch (17:08.227)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:25.726)

You you use the term microtranslations and and the idea that there could be some miscommunication there. And I’m thinking of like literal translations, right? In in when you’re trying to speak to somebody in another language, even like your intonation can mean something completely different. so I unpack that idea of microtranslations and how they show up in customer relationships, employee relationships.

Cornelia Choe (17:29.015)

Mm-hmm.

Cornelia Choe (17:41.835)

Yeah.

Cornelia Choe (17:50.398)

Give you an example of the survey where where it was found that 39% of CIOs believe the company’s ready, and only 7% of COOs believe that the company’s ready, they’re looking in completely different directions, and their plan of action is very different. So if we bring them together, then they’re really able to translate what they are thinking because.

John Jantsch (18:02.912)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (18:07.191)

Yeah.

Cornelia Choe (18:17.823)

If you bring them together, each one is gonna automatically assume that the other sees their perspective. And that’s when you really run into trouble. So starting from the basics where each person will explain how they see the the situation and explaining it in a way that the other person can understand. And that’s when you get the real magic, Jiang, because when you tr explain things in the perspective of another person so that they can understand and

So the COO will say, look, you know, I know you have a plan for your technology rollout, but we’re actually looking at these specific teams which are having a problem. How do they fit in your plan? And then to to translate what we’re saying in a way others can understand, that’s when we actually get the the co-creation and the and the communication. So it’s it’s it’s one added step, but it brings fantastic results.

John Jantsch (19:15.0)

What about outside perspectives? I know I get brought in quite often to organizations and you know there’s there’s leadership, there’s marketing, there’s sales, there’s customer service. And by the time I’ve talked to all of them, I realize that they’ve been they’ve been operating the way they operate, and it doesn’t make sense. and certainly there are disconnects. And it was so clear and easy for me to see when they were just like, Well, I don’t know, this is how we’ve always done it. Would would you say that bringing in outside perspective is a great way to to actually open some eyes to blind spots? Cause

Cornelia Choe (19:31.329)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:44.834)

I mean the problem with blind spots is we would fix them if we knew they were there. Half the time we just don’t know they’re there.

Cornelia Choe (19:49.387)

Mm-hmm.

Exactly. And a lot of people go on autopilot because it’s easier. And our brains are actually our most expensive organ because it takes up two percent of our body weight, but 20% of our energy and our oxygen. So people try to offload and autopilot everything they can because they don’t want to rethink it over. But in a time when we have constant disruption and our maps are changing constantly, then we have to question what we do and

John Jantsch (19:53.422)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:06.2)

Yeah, yeah.

Cornelia Choe (20:21.489)

it’s it it’s easier when we bring in curiosity and optimistic fear because then we’re willing to question and say, it’s not gonna be that big of a deal. Let’s just get a bit closer and see what we think. Let’s talk to these people, let’s call these people in for a meeting Monday morning, let’s make a list of people who aren’t at our table and to get to know what they’re thinking throughout the week.

John Jantsch (20:34.605)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:43.82)

Yeah, yeah. Well well, Cornel, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by. Is there somebody that or somewhere that you would invite people to connect with you or find out more about the panoramic leader?

Cornelia Choe (20:54.889)

Absolutely. My website is at corneliachoe.com, C-O-R-N-E-L-I-A-C-H-O-E dot com. I would love to hear from you. And our if you want to learn more, our book is on Amazon and it’s called The Panoramic Leader.

John Jantsch (21:12.46)

Awesome. Well again, take appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Cornelia Choe (21:18.078)

Absolutely, John. It has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation.

How AI Is Changing Trust, Content, and Customer Relationships

How AI Is Changing Trust, Content, and Customer Relationships written by Alex McQueen read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the Full Episode:

Overview

Duct Tape Marketing Podcast cover art featuring host Sara Nay and guest Heidi Ellsworth, episode "How AI Is Changing Trust, Content, and Customer Relationships"

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, Sara Nay sits in for John Jantsch and talks with Heidi Ellsworth, president of Roofers Coffee Shop, about how small businesses build trust with customers. Ellsworth has spent more than 30 years in roofing, much of it helping tradespeople and small business owners tell their stories online. She and Nay talk about why online communities, directories, networking, and content still work together, and how that combination matters more now that AI shapes how people find and judge a business.

Ellsworth breaks down how she builds content: record your conversations, turn them into transcripts, then let AI help with the first draft. She and Nay also talk about what happens after the sale, where staying in touch with customers pays off, and why the best referral programs start with genuinely strong service.

This episode is for small business owners, marketing agencies, and consultants who want a grounded take on combining offline relationship-building with online content and AI tools without losing the trust that got them there.

Guest Bio

Heidi Ellsworth is president of Roofers Coffee Shop, an award-winning media and community platform serving the roofing, coatings, metal, and outdoor living industries. Ellsworth is a nationally recognized leader in the roofing industry and has helped shape how the industry connects and communicates online, she helped launch Roofers Coffee Shop with business partner Vicky Sharples in 2002, joining the company full-time in 2015. She also leads Ask A Roofer, connecting homeowners and business owners with roofing contractors.

Key Takeaways

Recorded conversations and phone videos are raw material for content. Turn them into transcripts, then build articles, posts, and case studies from there.
AI can speed up content creation, but it’s a drafting tool. Skipping the edit and read-through step is where AI-generated content goes wrong.
Combining online directories, articles, and podcasts with offline efforts like community involvement and networking builds the kind of consistency that earns trust, from both people and AI search tools.
It’s fine to talk publicly about the good work you do in your community. Sharing it amplifies the impact and supports your marketing.
Referral programs only work when the underlying service is excellent. Incentives do not make up for a weak customer experience.

Great Moments (Timestamps)

[00:59] – Heidi shares how watching her father, a general contractor, inspired her mission to help small businesses tell their stories.
[03:34] – Why the combination of online communities, directories, networking, and content works so well for small businesses.
[06:08] – How AI has raised the stakes for consistent, authentic online content.
[09:45] – Heidi’s case for why “transcripts are gold,” and how to use AI as a tool without losing your voice.
[14:50] – The overlooked importance of nurturing customers after the sale.
[18:54] – Heidi’s closing advice on getting to know your online resources.

Memorable Quotes

“It’s easier than it’s ever been [to produce content]. Transcripts are gold. If you’re looking for gold out there, transcripts are gold. So taking your phone and recording your thoughts, recording conversations, thought leadership conversations.” — Heidi Ellsworth
“We always say people do business with people, right? They want to know who they’re doing business with, and they want to feel good about buying from you and trust.” — Heidi Ellsworth
“You gotta think about yourself as a customer. As a customer, what do I want and what do I wanna do? And if I have a great experience, how many people am I gonna tell?” — Heidi Ellsworth
“Do those good deeds, but it’s okay to talk about it. It’s okay because other people, other small businesses will see what you’re doing and they will follow. So it amplifies the good deed, and it also helps your marketing.” — Heidi Ellsworth

Resources

Duct Tape Transcript

Sara Nay (00:01.474)

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is your host, Sara Nay, stepping in for John Jantsch. Today, my guest is Heidi Ellsworth, who is a nationally recognized leader in the roofing and business building industries, serving as president of the coffee shop, an award-winning group of digital platforms. With more than 30 years of experience in roofing in sales, marketing, and business development, she has played a pivotal role in advancing how the industry connects, communicates, and

Rose. Welcome to the show, Heidi.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (00:33.167)

Thank you so much. That was such a nice introduction. Thank you.

Sara Nay (00:36.59)

I’m excited you’re here. and so let’s dive on in. Let’s get to the point. so you started in roofing I believe in nineteen ninety-three. So you’ve been in the industry for quite some time now. And over the years you ended up building one of the most influential media and community platforms. So I’m curious what caused you to see a need for building a platform like you’ve built?

Heidi J. Ellsworth (00:46.12)

Yes. Yeah.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (00:59.979)

you know what it it actually started when I was really young. My dad was a general contractor. And as kids, we’d be in the back of the car and we’d be driving someplace. And my dad would point out everything, every job that he had done, right? Every job, every house, every roof, every light pole. And as I grew older and, you know, worked with him in the business as a teenager, and then watched him as I started my marketing communications, I realized how

Much he would have appreciated to have someone put together a case study for him to tell his story, to share his successes, you know, more than just pointing them out to your kids and spouse. And that really stuck with me. And I wanted to be able to tell the stories of the amazing small businesses and in my case, craftsmen and women who build.

America, right? Who build and we we’re just not America who build everywhere. and so that that inspired me. And my business partner, Vicky Sharples, had actually started Roofer’s Coffee Shop back in 2002. And when she asked me to join her full time, I helped her launch it in 2002, but then sh I joined her full time in 2015. And it gave me that opportunity, that opportunity to do something I’d really kind of thought about for many years before I

Actually started full time with the coffee shops.

Sara Nay (02:27.566)

I love that story and and we actually have some in common because John Jance is my father and he actually founded Duct Tape Marketing and so I grew up watching you know the impact that he was making in small businesses’ lives and it really inspired me to kind of follow along on on the path that he laid.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (02:43.512)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. My my kids actually work for me now. And nothing that, you know, I probably much like you, they came to me and they said, you know, we just we’re interested and we love what you’re doing. And so they they will also tell that story about their grandpa. So it’s yeah, it’s I love family businesses.

Sara Nay (02:48.073)

nice.

Sara Nay (03:04.822)

Yeah, it’s amazing they came to you. I I came to my dad about 16 years ago and was like, I need a job. But it worked out. I’m still around 16 years later. Yeah. Awesome. Well, one of the things that I know you talk about obviously is marketing, and that’s a lot of what we focus on as well. And a lot of people, when they think about marketing, they think, you know, I just need more leads or I need to run ads or I need a website in place. But you and I both know that it’s a lot deeper than that. So I know you talk a lot about

Heidi J. Ellsworth (03:08.81)

Yeah, it worked out obviously very well.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (03:32.184)

Yes.

Sara Nay (03:34.316)

A combination of like online communities, directories, networking and content. So why does that combination work so well in trades or just small business in general?

Heidi J. Ellsworth (03:45.039)

Yeah, you know, I think it honestly has worked for decades, right? The the idea that you build trust with your customers and that you’re authentic, that you help them guide them in making good decisions for their whether it’s their home or their business or whatever, that it’s it’s more than just a sales call. It’s a relationship, it’s it’s consulting on what makes what is a win for everyone involved.

and that’s always been the case, I feel, in in in with successful small businesses, with successful businesses, period. That’s always it’s about trust, it’s about your brand, it’s about your culture, all those kind of things. Well, now let’s throw in technology and what has happened the last, you know, five years, but really the last year when we’re talking about AI and the things are changing the landscape, is that it has created

This transparency that wasn’t there before. I mean, when I started and when I was first mark helping contractors and small businesses, because I worked with a number of small businesses doing their marketing too. it was about, well, should you name your company with starting with an A so you can be at the beginning of the yellow pages section. And it was about being part of, but it was still a part of being that little league team of doing all those things. Today, your whole life.

Your whole business is out there online. And so if you do not have a consistent message, a consistent brand, really authentic real story to tell and to share, it’s gonna come out and people are going to see it. So what we started in 2002, Vicky and I, with online articles and directories, and then grew it, you know, starting 2015 really into a multimedia platform with podcasts and webinars. Today.

ha has created this rich, rich environment for AI to search, to find content, to be able to see real stories. And so we are encouraging small businesses, all businesses, in and right now we serve the roofing industry, the coatings industry, the metal industry, and the outdoor living industries to get their directories up.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (06:08.622)

Get their art give their articles, do podcasts with us, just like we’re doing right now. All of this feeds that AI need for information. And we really, like you do, work with them to really tell their story and make sure that there’s a consistency between their website and between what they’re putting on our site so that as people are finding things online, whether that’s AI or real people.

Sara Nay (06:21.464)

Yeah.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (06:36.308)

they’re finding consistency so they can build that trust in that brand. So it’s just a different way, but it’s even more important today than it’s ever been, I think.

Sara Nay (06:44.578)

Yeah, that’s great. And a lot of times when we’re working with businesses, we’re we’re helping them diversify like what they’re doing from a marketing perspective. And so you mentioned a few things like the directories and communities and content and credibility online, but are you also advising people to focus on offline efforts as well? And what does that look like?

Heidi J. Ellsworth (07:04.92)

Yeah, big time. offline is being involved in your community, giving back through charitable activities, doing that sign at the little league field. but here’s the difference. And and I don’t know if you’ve seen this, Sarah, in all the different folks you work with, but I can tell you in the construction industry, we have a number of very humble, very humble business owners who are like, Yeah, I donate, I I re-roof people’s homes every day. I

I helped build the little league dugout. I I’m not gonna tell anyone because you know we’re not supposed to. We’re just supposed to do good deeds. And so the conversation we have now is do those good deeds, but it’s okay to talk about it. It’s okay because other people, other small businesses will see what you’re doing and they will follow. So it amplifies the good deed and it also helps your marketing. It’s cause marketing is so important.

Sara Nay (07:50.094)

Yeah.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (08:02.232)

And then I also am very much about networking. You know, it’s marketing is about networking also. So if you’re talking about off-grid, whether you’re online or you’re going being a part of an association, being part of your chamber of commerce, being, you know, that is also marketing because you are taking the time to be there, to give back, to help with your community. So we encourage all of that, but we encourage them to talk about it, to share it.

Sara Nay (08:26.392)

Yeah. Yeah, that’s great. I always think about marketing as, you know, going out there and focusing on your online presence, obviously, but also then having conversations with people is a big part of marketing and people don’t always think about it that way. But it’s as you said, it’s, you know, donating, it’s attending events, it’s having conversations, it’s networking, it’s finding strategic partnerships. Like that should always be a conversation, regardless of what industry you’re in. It should always be a focus while you’re also building all out your online presence to support those efforts as well.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (08:45.91)

Exactly.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (08:55.32)

Right. We always say people do business with people, right? They they they want to know who they’re doing business with. They want and and I know that’s a little muddier in today’s world when you think of Amazon and some of these things. I I really don’t know who’s on the other side of that screen, but on a local small business basis, people want to be with people and they wanna know you and they wanna know who you are and they want to feel good about buying from you and trust.

Sara Nay (08:55.638)

Ultimately.

Sara Nay (08:59.415)

Yeah, exactly.

Sara Nay (09:22.238)

Yeah. Absolutely. And I would argue that’s becoming more important in the age of AI right now. But going back to the content piece, because we have been preaching content, content, content for years. But what if someone’s listening and they’re like, Okay, I get it. I need to be producing content, but I don’t know how to get started. How what would you advise on how to get started with content production that’s representing a business?

Heidi J. Ellsworth (09:45.113)

Yeah, I tell you what, it’s easier than it’s ever been. It’s much easier than when I was doing it when I started out in my career. but I I just said this on a call earlier today. Transcripts are gold. If you want, if you’re looking for gold out there, transcripts are gold. So taking your phone and recording your thoughts, recording conversations, thought leadership conversations. Obviously, you have to be careful of privacy and all that stuff, but and then

Sara Nay (09:59.119)

Mm.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (10:15.118)

videos on your phone, taking videos, having those, you know, referrals or talking to the your customers about what they like, what was successful, why they’re happy. And then taking those videos or those audio tracks, turning them into transcripts, and forgive me, Sarah, I’m sure there’s gonna be a few people out there who are gonna be like, no, don’t say it. Put it into AI. Put it into AI.

Sara Nay (10:39.5)

Yeah.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (10:43.514)

put it into AI because it’s a tool. It’s a tool to be used. Now, here’s where people go sideways with AI and building content. And that is they don’t read what comes out, right? So it’s it’s just like if you’re putting something in and cooking it and making something and you never taste it, and you just put it out on the table and it’s terrible. That’s exactly what will happen with AI. You can put all the ingredients in, your thoughts, what you’re doing, everything, you put it all in.

It bakes it and comes out. If you don’t take the time to read it, to edit it, to change it, to make sure it fits exactly who you are, then it’s not a very good tool. So that’s what I’m like. Capture the thoughts up front, make it easy, use it as a tool to run through and then edit, edit, edit, and read it. That is so incredibly important. But it’s just, it’s created an opportunity. I mean, and there’s

That’s just writing, right? But I mean, there’s also a lot of programs out there that will help with video editing. There is, you know, that phone is the best tool you have. Although Sarah, this morning I was on with a contractor who does metal roofing and he just got his metaglasses and he’s blowing it up on social media with the videos the job site and talking to his customers. And he singing its praise, loves it.

Sara Nay (11:55.554)

No.

Sara Nay (12:03.352)

That’s amazing.

Yeah. Yeah, that’s amazing. I feel like those glasses would take some of the pressure off. You almost forget that you’re recording ultimately. ‘Cause they’re just on your face.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (12:12.12)

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And he says it’s so easy. And then there’s software to edit those, you know, say pull me a clip. yeah. So it it I think it’s easier than ever, but you have to not be afraid and you have to check your work. I can only say that like 10 million times because I believe it so strongly.

Sara Nay (12:30.658)

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, I know I you actually interviewed me on a podcast yesterday. So we reversed roles and we talked a lot on that podcast about the customer journey. and so so far today we’ve talked about a lot of things that people can be doing to get awareness when it comes to getting in front of people. but how do you see like the customer journey changing in the age of AI?

Heidi J. Ellsworth (12:36.611)

Yes.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (12:52.866)

Yeah, I think it’s become even more important. I think you have to stay in touch with your customers. You need to have the touch points along the way to make sure that they’re getting what they need, that you’re delivering what you promised, that they’re happy. the the communication’s a little bit easier because of automation. So you can automate a lot of your messaging that goes the touch points, you can automate and making sure they’re getting communication they need to have a good customer experience. But

That one on one, I think will never go away. You s you still need that touch point with your customers. And I mean, it depend there’s so many small businesses on so many different levels, but it’s obviously if it’s retail, it’s little bit easier to have that face to face. But in construction, law, all those other things, making sure you s stay in touch in that customer journey. and I I would say at the very beginning, there’s nothing more important than listening.

Listening and understanding the needs and the pain of your customer and how you can solve it and then deliver.

Sara Nay (13:58.947)

Yeah, exactly. I think that’s so key, like especially in like the sales process I’ve been sold to so many times over the years where it’s like, did you even listen to what I was saying or are you just going through your script to like pitch what you think I need, even though I just told you that’s not what I need? And so I think it is really key to listen and ask the questions and stay curious. But you also made another great point in the customer journey. There’s also a lot of businesses that focus like

Heidi J. Ellsworth (14:06.778)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (14:21.816)

primarily on marketing and just getting more and more and more people in the door. But then like once people become customers, they kind of like forget about them and they don’t really communicate well. Like I’ve signed up for services and products over the years and it’s like, okay, I paid this money, what’s next? It’s crickets. Like what can I expect? And so I just think like it’s sad, but communicating with your clients and customers after sale can go such a far way. And often a lot of businesses forget about that piece because they’re so focused on leads, leads, leads.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (14:30.01)

Right.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (14:50.713)

Mm-hmm.

Sara Nay (14:50.796)

And so from your perspective, like any advice there on how to like how to nurture people and take care of people more after they actually become customers?

Heidi J. Ellsworth (14:57.241)

Yeah.

Yeah I think a lot of times you gotta think about yourself as a customer. As a customer, what do I want and what do I wanna do? And if I have a great experience, how many people am I gonna tell? And I I I that to your point is that’s the best way to generate leads or to generate people coming to you. You know, that they heard, Yes, we love these guys, they are so great, they did all of this for us. You you gotta go see them. I had a a chiropractor in

lady in town who was just so phenomenal. And I told one person who told another person and they told another person. I mean, and everybody keeps coming back, going, Thank you, she’s so amazing. and so I think yes, new leads are important and branding and having your name out there so that when someone does hear your, you know, or someone has a need, they’ve seen you, they’ve heard about you from the community.

And that’s really that’s the ultimate lead generation. But I really feel with lead generation today, too many people just want that instant lead and ’cause because Google has kind of trained them that way. Those are they take a lot more time and usually are not nearly as qualified.

Sara Nay (16:03.586)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (16:11.842)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean referrals are the most, I feel like, the easiest can to convert when it comes to leads because there’s already a lot of that trust built in. but I’m curious in your work, have you helped different businesses build out referral programs or is it more just built on in sp like helping people feel great where they want to refer ultimately the companies they’re working with? What’s your approach there?

Heidi J. Ellsworth (16:18.521)

Yeah.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (16:33.4)

I yeah, I’ve worked with a lot of different companies who have done it. I mean, in construction, it’s all about referrals, right? I mean, in fact, some some folks they don’t even do marketing, and now we say that’s not a good idea either, because you need that full schedule around it. But I’ve worked with people helping to put together, I mean, I’ve worked for contractors, small businesses that where we put together referral programs, how we’re going to communicate that. And that starts all the way.

you know, you your sales team needs to understand it. And then you need to be consistent and talking to people and finding out. But you can put together a lot of referral programs. You can give a lot of gift cards away. You can do all those kind of things. But if you don’t have stellar work and great communications, people won’t care about a gift card. So I I believe in referral programs, but I really believe in delivering the what people need and then and then following through.

Sara Nay (17:26.147)

Yes.

Sara Nay (17:30.498)

Yeah, absolutely. And your chiropractor example sets the table for that exactly. I mean, I have a person that’s done our taxes for years, and I think everyone I know he also does their taxes. And it’s just because he’s done a great job and he communicates well and he’s on time and he’s responsive and we can rely on them. Like it’s all those things that you want. And once you find someone like that, like literally the next time someone’s like, Who does your taxes? I’m more than willing to refer them because I’ve had a good experience. And so I think that really highlights

Heidi J. Ellsworth (17:38.938)

Yeah, exactly.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (17:48.547)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (17:58.255)

Regardless what industry you’re in, like yes, as we were saying, I do think referral programs have a place. But as long as you’re nurturing people throughout the whole experience and you’re delivering on what you promise, they’re just gonna refer you naturally as well, which is a win all.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (18:12.672)

Exactly. Exactly. And I I use myself a lot as my own focus group, right? I’m like, how do I want to be treated? What is is a gift card gonna really make that big of a difference to me? No, really good service is gonna make a big difference to me. And so now and knowing that I’m there’s a lot of people who have different opinions and so you need to ask and talk to a lot of people. But if you kind of start at home and build that out, treat others like you wanna be treated.

Sara Nay (18:37.346)

Yeah, absolutely. Love it. Well, thank you. We are coming towards the end of our show. So I always like to ask a couple questions as we get towards the end. based on what we discussed today, is there one tip or one thing that you want to leave the audience with before we go?

Heidi J. Ellsworth (18:54.098)

Yes, I would say get to know your and purely selfish here, but get to know your online resources. Get to know the people behind those. sign up for podcasts, sign up for send in articles, get your directories. there’s really nothing more important right now for your online presence, which is a part of your bigger marketing plan than that. And so if anybody has questions and they want to see what we have done at Roofers Coffee Shop.

It’s easy. Heidi at Roofers Coffee Shop dot com. I’m more than happy to answer any questions.

Sara Nay (19:26.67)

Awesome. And then one final quick question I like to ask because I’m a bit of a book nerd. Are you reading anything right now that you would recommend or have you read anything lately?

Heidi J. Ellsworth (19:31.343)

Yeah.

Heidi J. Ellsworth (19:36.182)

Yes, I’m kind of a I’m really big into sci science fiction and fantasy and stuff like that. So Onyx Storm is one of the ones that I just finished and I can’t wait for the fourth book. So yeah.

Sara Nay (19:44.609)

Awesome.

Awesome. Love it. All right. Well you already shouted out there where people can connect you with you online. anywhere else that you want to connect online?

Heidi J. Ellsworth (19:56.93)

yeah, roofers coffee shop dot com. That’s our oldest and our first brand. And so you’ll see a lot of different things there. If you’re looking for a roofer, go to askaroofer.com. And as a homeowner or a business owner, if you’re looking for you know help to pick that roof and get something great, askaroofer.com has all kinds of resources and you can ask and find a con a contractor. And that’s also part of our platform.

Sara Nay (20:21.056)

Awesome. All right. Thank you so much, Heidi, for being here today. I really enjoyed our conversation. And thank you all for listening to the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. We’ll see you next time.

Why Marketing Agencies Must Shift From Deliverables to Strategy

Why Marketing Agencies Must Shift From Deliverables to Strategy written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the Full Episode

Overview

Duct Tape Marketing Podcast cover art featuring guest Brian Gerstner, hosted by John Jantsch, for the episode AI Is Rewriting How Customers Choose Your Business

9 out of 10 agency clients say their agency helps them succeed. 4 out of 10 also plan to shrink that relationship within a year. Brian Gerstner has the research to explain how both are true, and it’s less dire than it sounds.

Gerstner co-founded Agency Core, which surveyed 579 agency leaders and 400 clients in 2026 on how AI is changing agency work. He and I talk through why agencies are landing in different camps: some have built real authority and charge more for it, some are still figuring out where AI fits, and plenty have room to move from routine deliverables toward strategy work.

This one’s for agency owners and marketing consultants feeling the ground shift under AI. They cover niching down without shrinking your whole business, why pricing power still exists for the right positioning, and the marketing leadership gap AI has exposed.

Guest Bio

Brian Gerstner is co-founder of Agency Core, an independent research initiative studying how agencies are adapting their business models in the AI era. He’s also president of White Label IQ, a 90-person team that works exclusively with agencies on outsourced production and development work. Gerstner has spent more than 20 years in the agency business and built Agency Core to surface the attitudes and behaviors driving agency success, in addition to the tactics.

Key Takeaways

Only 13 to 16% of agency owners fully execute on the strategic priorities they name as most important.
Niching down doesn’t require picking an industry. A region, attitude, or strategic approach can build the same “confident differentiator” status.
Client demand for agencies hasn’t dropped. The questions clients ask have changed, from “can you build this” to “should we do this.”
Commoditized deliverables (brochures, basic content, routine reports) are losing pricing power fast. Strategy, judgment, and direction are not.
29% of clients expect fee reductions tied to AI, while clients working with a differentiated, authoritative agency are willing to pay more, not less.
Chasing AI as a standalone offer is a shrinking window. It’s already table stakes, and clients want it used intentionally rather than pitched as the product.

Great Moments

[02:43] – What separates a “confident differentiator” agency from the rest
[05:49] – Only 13 to 16% of agency owners fully execute their own top priorities
[07:56] – Gerstner reconciles the two seemingly contradictory client statistics
[14:07] – What the pricing data shows about fees, AI, and expertise
[17:49] – Niching down doesn’t mean picking one industry, it means having a focus and sticking to it
[20:17] – The hidden challenge: retraining an existing team that isn’t built for the work agencies need now

Memorable Quotes

“There’s a reason the compass was invented before the clock. It’s because it’s more important to know where you’re going.” — Brian Gerstner
“There is still probably more opportunity than ever before if you can take the time to see it.” — Brian Gerstner
“If you focus down, if you niche in, if you lean into an area, it is an investment. It’s hard. Growth is painful.” — Brian Gerstner
“Coming in the strategy door is a far better relationship than coming in the vendor door.” — John Jantsch
“The moment other people start saying these people have a great reputation in this area, that’s when you’re truly establishing that confident differentiating position.” — Brian Gerstner
“You’re gonna have to hire a strategic thinker who can become a leader, because the doers, we can outsource.” — John Jantsch

Resources

Agency Core research: agencycore.org
White Label IQ: whitelabeliq.com

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.806)

So nine out of ten clients say their agency makes them more likely to succeed. I guess that’s the good news, right? four out of those ten are also planning to cut back on their relationship within a year. We’ll talk more about that. So, hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Brian Gerstner. He’s the co-founder of Agency Core, an organization that does independent research study.

They surveyed over five hundred and seventy-nine agency leaders and four hundred of their own clients in twenty twenty six. he is also the president of White Label IQ, a ninety person team that works exclusively with agencies, spent more than twenty years in the business. We’re gonna talk about that research. So, Brian, welcome to the show.

Brian Gerstner (00:50.782)

It’s a pleasure. How are you, John?

John Jantsch (00:53.104)

awesome. So you know, there’s a lot of organizations out there. You’ve been in the business twenty years, a lot of organizations out there doing producing data. Is there something that you’re trying to learn or you like initially started this to try to learn that maybe nobody else is ev is measuring?

Brian Gerstner (01:09.034)

Well, it it was really about looking inside of agencies. You know, in in all the time I’ve been, you know, working inside of agencies, it it’s really a bubble. Like you’re doing everything you can to the best you can and you’re not really exactly sure how other peers are are successful or what they’re doing. So we wanted agency core to really take a look inside of agencies so that people could see how people are being successful, what kind of retention, where they’re focusing, what kind of products they’re selling, what

John Jantsch (01:25.91)

Yes.

Brian Gerstner (01:39.144)

And at the end of the day, truly, the study is an attitudinal study. So it’s not about the specific mechanics, but it has a lot to do with like the overlying attitudes that people have and how those attitudes really reflect how successful they are and what they’re doing.

John Jantsch (01:50.925)

Yes.

John Jantsch (01:56.813)

Yeah, you know, we work with a lot of agencies. And I I tell you, I’ve been doing it that for twenty years as well. And it it, you know, you say attitude, I’ve been using the w the word mindset, you know, because I think there definitely is a there’s a bigger shift going on right now, it feels like, than ever, you know, before since I’ve been in this. And a lot of it is they just have to wrap their heads around a whole different way of going to market, even, or at least that’s what we’re seeing. Y your study actually

does kind of sort agencies into a couple groups that I would call maybe mindset. You know, has a lot to do with those groups. One called the confident differentiator. That was maybe my my favorite. what is a what does a confident differentiator do day to day that puts them in that segment?

Brian Gerstner (02:43.785)

Yeah, so it it it’s a classic story, right? We’ve all heard about niching down. but the key in that attitudinal s segment is that we see these are people who have taken a position. It’s not just, you know, sitting down with your team, you know, talking like, here’s who we are, here’s what we do. But it’s really about, you know, spending the time going out speaking, writing, creating content around it.

John Jantsch (02:50.016)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (02:58.05)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (03:11.805)

you know, turning down clients that don’t really fit that core focus that you’re providing. So they’re they’re creating that classic true differentiation that, you know, we all talk about in Seek, but when we I think as we look at the study and things we might touch on is the statistically the people who are in that particular segment are doing way better. I mean, you know, even as we talk about differentiation, we’re seeing the numbers really start to create a huge gap.

John Jantsch (03:15.35)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (03:41.063)

And how those individuals are much more successful and competent.

John Jantsch (03:46.176)

And and not just revenue, profit, probably, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (03:49.258)

Well, I mean, we’re we’re not really talking about products specifically, but like things like how relevant is my agency? How much of a concern is do I have about being able to justify the fees that I’m providing? You know, is AI you know, how much how much of a threat is AI to my business model? Those individuals are reporting, you know, much more confidence around those types of areas. So we’re not specifically talking about profit, but once again

John Jantsch (03:57.045)

okay.

Brian Gerstner (04:19.401)

The the attitude here.

John Jantsch (04:19.734)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So so I you know, we encounter, I mean, th this idea of, you know, find a niche has been around a long time. I think a lot of people have gone down that path maybe incorrectly. in other words, saying, We’re gonna just work with Dennis starting tomorrow. and and and and and then find, you know, six months in that they don’t really Dennis isn’t a good market or you know, whatever the

Brian Gerstner (04:37.502)

I need a

John Jantsch (04:47.17)

Not picking on dentists, just you know, it’s more the the approach. So so what does your sir survey say about that kind of hesitation of like, I don’t wanna turn other you know, other stuff away.

Brian Gerstner (04:58.901)

So this is more me speaking as agency owner and just kind of in there. I you know, if someone comes up to you and in your heart you know you can help them and they have a big bag of money in their hands, my goodness, take it. You know? being able to niche down is really an a function of you know, are you demonstrating an authority? And at the end of the day, are other people

John Jantsch (05:11.436)

Yeah yeah. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

Brian Gerstner (05:28.199)

saying, hey, they’re really good at this, because we can talk about ourselves all we want, but the moment other people start saying, Hey, these particular people have a great reputation in this one particular area, that’s that that’s when you know you’re you’re truly, you know, establishing that that confident differentiating positions.

John Jantsch (05:31.404)

Yes.

John Jantsch (05:49.343)

So one of the I see this all the time. 13 to 16% of agency owners say they’re fully executed on the strategies they name as their top priorities. what’s up with that?

Brian Gerstner (06:01.141)

So that’s wild. I you know, we I know being a college kid in in the business is like common, you know, like we’re we’re horrible at doing our own marketing, but we do it for others all the time. what I I for me that statistic stands out greatly because there’s so much change in the market with AI and just the way things are changing, you know, and the fact that you know, if you’re using a cloud, I’m using open AI.

John Jantsch (06:09.538)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (06:13.026)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (06:31.731)

we’re all kind of the same agency at the end of the day if we’re not really standing on a particular reputation or authority. So when we look at 13% only executing it, what what blows my mind is when there’s so much change happening and we know like a lot of the you know actual deliverable work that we do is being commoditized more rapidly than ever before.

John Jantsch (06:38.531)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (06:58.247)

I look at it and it just blows my mind. We’ve got to be able to do better. I mean, our our business are our business models might fail for those who are sitting there and rely on the complexity of marketing, you know, being able to execute because it’s too technical. I mean that that the tide’s going out and AI has really eroded that area. So unless we’re really showing authority and a true understanding of our clients,

John Jantsch (07:12.888)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:19.224)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (07:26.921)

we’re not going to be able to be competitive. And what wh I really like gives me a lot of hope about this is once again, it’s about the fundamentals of marketing are still so true.

John Jantsch (07:35.69)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Always they haven’t changed no matter what the platform, right? S so that statistic I cited at the opening that nine out of ten you know, f feel like their agency is more likely to make them succeed, only four out of ten, but four yeah, four out of ten plan to reduce the relationship. So walk me through both of those numbers. I mean, how can they both be true at the same time?

Brian Gerstner (07:40.707)

yeah.

Brian Gerstner (07:56.502)

Well, so I think what it really looks at is just as I said, you know, the tide is moving out on certain types of work. So when we look at the nine out of ten as far as end clients, and that’s the specific statistic came out of the agency edge research through AMI. it is, you know, we’re still incredibly relevant. Clients know they need an agency, they need an expert, they need authority in a position and that, you know.

John Jantsch (08:14.966)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Gerstner (08:25.841)

it is more likely that their initiatives will will be successful if they have the right people at the table with them. You know, it’s just knowing that like we’re still incredibly relevant. Okay. But when you look at the certain end clients like decreasing their spend, you know, we’re all seeing it, whether it’s like producing brochures, writing content, you know, AI is doing it excessively well, you know, and for a lot of clients, good is enough for certain types of work.

John Jantsch (08:37.386)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:46.485)

Right.

John Jantsch (08:55.532)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Gerstner (08:55.951)

when I I bridge the two together, it is the fact that the agency can show up, provide strategy, provide greater, higher levels of confidence and judgment and direction. And with that in place and, you know, as an end client, access to a lot of these tools that are more affordable than ever before, they’re moving faster. So I look at that statistic and I say,

There are certain types of engagements that we’re used to doing and providing deliverables that are now commoditized that are absolutely we’re gonna lose we’re gonna lose ground on those. But the it’s the strategy work, it’s the judgment and direction that the nine out of ten comes from.

John Jantsch (09:36.012)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (09:40.61)

Yeah, yeah. Well, and that’s you know, I’ve been preaching the this line, strategy before tactics, for, you know, at least thirty years. And and I mean it’s you know, it it’s absolutely gonna be, I think, the only space left. In fact, one of the things I think has happened is is AI has actually opened up a marketing leadership gap. and I think really exposed it. It’s always been there with small to mid sized businesses, but I think AI is

really exposing the lack of leadership in marketing. And I think that I how do you feel agents I believe that agencies can rush into that gap, you know, and stop worrying about, you know, SEO tactics. but how do you get an agency that’s, you know, that’s got 20 people sitting around that their job is to like do reports and do do the stuff we give to clients and get them start thinking more about leaders. I know you didn’t research this, but but I’m curious what your thoughts are on

Brian Gerstner (10:37.823)

So there’s two thoughts and one is just very awakening. Like that agency you just described, the the truth is revenue is gonna make that decision for them. Right. and on the other side, I do believe that you know it is a lot about you know, the questions that your clients are gonna ask us. I can tell you over the past year or two, how our clients have started to engage us has been very different.

John Jantsch (10:42.134)

Yes.

John Jantsch (10:47.701)

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (11:07.628)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Gerstner (11:07.859)

You know, from you know, asking about deliverables and the more technical service offerings to showing up and going, How do we do this? Should we do this? And it is once again fundamentals, right? If we’re focused on our clients and we’re looking at the questions they’re answering and we understand the problems and pain that they’re having, naturally there should be a progression. If we’re stuck and focused on the deliverable, I mean, that is a core thing. Like if you’re not client focused or client centric, then you’re gonna you’re gonna miss that transition.

To some degree. but I think the decision’s gonna get made for you, good or bad.

John Jantsch (11:39.49)

You Yeah. You you identified another another segment you call the AI opportunity embracers and and we certainly are seeing that out there that people are rushing in saying, there’s money to be made in this new frontier. but I’m also seeing a lot of them already going, We can’t really get any clients just pitching that because they can do it themselves for twenty bucks a month, right?

Brian Gerstner (12:01.725)

yeah.

Brian Gerstner (12:05.653)

Well well, I mean, my agency is very heavily in this area also because we do a tremendous amount of development work and we do a tremendous amount of like work that is being affected by AI. So like in this, like we have we have a people problem. The the adoption is really difficult to really, you know, to get with people, to get people to truly know how to leverage it. And when we look at this particular segment, a lot of the problem is

John Jantsch (12:10.029)

Sure. Mm-hmm.

Brian Gerstner (12:35.199)

People are moving into AI aggressively because it is new, there is a lot of opportunity, and honestly, right now AI itself is enough of a buzzword that you can hang your hat on it. What I can tell you though, right exactly.

John Jantsch (12:47.277)

Sure. It’s like when social media came around. There were all these social media social media marketing agencies.

Brian Gerstner (12:52.521)

Yeah. From being in the business long enough, I can tell you that this opportun the the whole, you know, AI being your differentiator, like that is gonna disappear really quick. It’s already table stakes. when you look at it, end clients already understand that we’re using it. They just want us to do it responsibly. So this particular segment, the real the people who are chasing AI going, AI is the answer. there there is there is still plenty of opportunity in this area. The big concern is

John Jantsch (13:03.629)

Sure, sure.

John Jantsch (13:08.331)

Yep. Yep.

Brian Gerstner (13:23.061)

People are running really fast, but where are you going? You know, there there’s a reason the compass was invented before the clock. It’s because it’s more important to know where you’re going. So the big fear in this area is that you’re moving really fast and you’re gonna end up somewhere where there’s not going to be enough ground to live on.

John Jantsch (13:30.273)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:41.441)

Yeah, look at all the hundred thousand dollar stalled AI projects that a lot of corporations launched.

Brian Gerstner (13:45.781)

Yeah, we’ve had funny we we have our own graveyard. We have our own graveyard, but we’re learning from every one of it. I call this you know, this is definitely education.

John Jantsch (13:54.19)

So so what’s the research say about pricing? pricing models that you know, are clients saying, Hey, you need to do this for you need to charge me fifty percent less because you’re using AI to do it?

Brian Gerstner (14:07.893)

we’re not really seeing that. We’re seeing that not only are marketing budgets in general in the industry still increasing, but we are seeing that end clients are saying that they are willing to not only not decrease, but they’re willing to pay more for higher levels of expertise in a specific area. We have seen where like I think twenty-nine percent of end clients are saying that they expect to reduce fees because of AI.

John Jantsch (14:27.741)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brian Gerstner (14:36.575)

But once again, I’m bringing this back to that concept of commoditization, where certain types of deliverables absolutely do not have the pricing power that they used to. So if you do, just like the confident differentiators, if you have a level of authority, absolutely the end clients are more willing to pay for it more and more ever before. So when you look at that statistic about agencies themselves saying, like, what was it? Only 25% believe

John Jantsch (14:43.234)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (15:05.585)

AI strategy is a differentiating factor in selection, I’m saying like this isn’t gonna last forever, but hey agencies, here is a giant window. There’s a door open right now. And if you can aggressively take take advantage of this, it’s a once in a lifetime opportunity.

John Jantsch (15:17.735)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (15:26.743)

Well and I tell you one of the things we’ve seen o over the years is coming in the strategy door i is a far better relationship to with the client than coming in the vendor do this thing door. and I I think that so, you know, we we our our clients have been with us for many, many years and I think it has to do with the fact that we start them all with strategy. you know, as of before we ever start talking about fixing all the stuff they want fixed.

Brian Gerstner (15:52.471)

And I know like there’s a lot of agencies I work with just don’t feel comfortable, don’t feel like they have the pricing power or that at the end of the day they say, Hey, my clients don’t want it.

John Jantsch (15:57.526)

Right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:02.273)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Gerstner (16:04.924)

That’s hard. I I I I get it. I I get how that’s the conversation, but like there just as you said, like the agency that’s producing reports, like, you know, if you focus down, if you niche in, if you if you lean into an area, it is an investment. It’s hard. Growth is painful. But as you do that, you are able to show up in a more significant way. You can charge more, your clients will spend more. And there is still a lot of power in the generalist. I’m not saying like niching down doesn’t mean

John Jantsch (16:07.275)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (16:33.834)

You have to choose an industry. You can choose a region. You can tre choose an attitude. You can choose strategy. But then you do have something to hang your hat on. I think people get caught up in niching down means I have to work with dentists all the time. That I I I don’t believe that’s true at all. But it does mean that you have to have focus and you can’t be all over the place. The the general’s position will erode. and even those that are very successful, I think they’ll find out that like there there is

John Jantsch (16:40.962)

Right.

John Jantsch (16:47.275)

Yeah, yep, yep, yep. Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:54.625)

Yep. Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (17:02.612)

there is some commonality between who they’re getting business with, whether it’s like the size of the in the SMB, whether it’s the region, whether it’s the tactical approaches, there is typically a common thread in there that has allowed them to be successful that they’re maybe just not focusing on.

John Jantsch (17:07.33)

yeah.

John Jantsch (17:13.644)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:19.369)

Yeah, I mean we’ve done that before with clients, you know, make it well let’s show me, you know, show me your thousand clients and we whittle it down and like eighty percent of their business is coming from this twenty percent band. you know, happens all the time.

Brian Gerstner (17:30.506)

What? Yeah. You just don’t see it ’cause you’re so in it a lot of times.

John Jantsch (17:35.147)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we’ve talked about the the the the confident differentiators and and maybe the the outliers, the the opportunity seekers. Who what does the data show about these people that are like where do we go? I just feel pressure. I don’t know what direction to go.

Brian Gerstner (17:54.059)

Right. i it’s a hard place to be because obviously and I think when we look in that, like sixteen percent of that segment was very open about just like, you know, closing it down and moving on. a lot of it is because you know, to be in this industry you have to have like some some s significant moxie to show up every day. Like someone’s moving your cheese every day, every hour. And you know, for a lot of people that that’s why this industry is so exciting too. But

John Jantsch (18:05.899)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (18:13.719)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:22.711)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Gerstner (18:24.714)

This is, you know, where we’ve been used to like, you know, weathering the storm, whether it’s you know, the pandemic or the two thousand eight housing or you know, just the politics that are running through. this is not a storm. This is a new climate. So for those that have weathered many, many storms, I know there there are some people who are just like, you know, like I’m tired. ’cause it does there’s there’s a lot of investment.

John Jantsch (18:42.156)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:50.133)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Gerstner (18:54.622)

I I will have to say though, John, like, you know, as I’ve been talking to people, even like a year, year and a half ago, the conversation was a lot about are we relevant? Like with AI coming, who’s gonna need us? What are we gonna do? I will tell you just in the course of one year, the conversation has changed dramatically. We are relevant. I will tell you that right now. And so, you know, for all those folks, it’s like, you know, stick around, you know, follow the data, talk to peers, you know, you’ll

John Jantsch (19:03.819)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:11.917)

Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (19:23.878)

And I I do think that you know once again we we just need to become acclimated. It is a new climate, you know. As we start to learn more and we start to get more comfortable, things get cleared, there’s less uncertainty than there was before. And for those folks, you know, the statistics just show that it’s a big change and it’s a difficult change. And but

John Jantsch (19:32.993)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Gerstner (19:49.738)

There’s still probably more opportunity than ever before if you can take the time to to see it.

John Jantsch (19:56.556)

Yeah. that that’s absolutely the message I’ve been trying to to give to folks as well, because I’ve I’m feeling it. the demand hasn’t slowed down at all. It’s just they’re asking different questions. exactly. Yeah, yeah. Well Brett

Brian Gerstner (20:07.146)

They really are. Yeah. And the the pressure you’re putting on your own team are very different. You know, it is you have to retrain your entire team a lot of times.

John Jantsch (20:13.484)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:17.183)

Yeah, you know that’s a I don’t want to go down too much of a rabbit hole here ’cause this could be a whole nother show. in that I think that’s one of the s that’s one of the challenges that a lot of agencies are are facing is the people that they attracted and hired and trained are are probably not as relevant for the work that needs to be done now. In a lot of cases, yeah.

Brian Gerstner (20:31.914)

Okay.

Brian Gerstner (20:36.086)

Right. Yeah, and one last statistic, but like even in this, I don’t have the exact numbers, but even though there’s been a tremendous amount of attrition, when we talk to agencies, hiring has become significantly harder. So think about that. There’s been a lot of attrition, the market is full of more people, but yet it’s even more difficult to hire.

John Jantsch (20:50.177)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (21:01.363)

Yeah, and I I told you we could go down a whole rabbit hole here. What we’ve experienced is that to be successful, you’re gonna have to hire you’re gonna have to hire a different you’re not gonna hire a doer. You’re gonna have to hire a strategic thinker who can actually become a leader in your organization because I think the doers, you know, we can outsource, right, Brian?

Brian Gerstner (21:05.137)

Okay. Well,

Brian Gerstner (21:23.924)

Yeah, I mean, yeah.

John Jantsch (21:28.173)

Exactly. So so I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there some place you’d invite people to to get the research? First off, I know you have that hosted and and then obviously find out more about white label IQ.

Brian Gerstner (21:41.771)

Yep. So absolutely go to agencycore.org. everything is completely ungated. You can download all the data, all the visualizations, all the studies, executive studies. It’s all there for everybody. No gating, no emails required. But you know, sign up and we’ll keep you informed. for us, you know, whitelik.com, absolutely. Also, Brian Gershner, look me up on LinkedIn, I’m pretty active.

John Jantsch (22:07.469)

Awesome. Well again, I appreciate you stopping by. Maybe we’ll run into you one of these days just up the highway there.

Brian Gerstner (22:12.692)

Right. Appreciate it, John.

AI Is Rewriting How Customers Choose Your Business

AI Is Rewriting How Customers Choose Your Business written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the Full Episode

Overview

Duct Tape Marketing Podcast cover art featuring guest Brian Gerstner, hosted by John Jantsch, for the episode AI Is Rewriting How Customers Choose Your Business

Guest Bio

Key Takeaways

Only 13 to 16% of agency owners fully execute on the strategic priorities they name as most important.
Niching down doesn’t require picking an industry. A region, attitude, or strategic approach can build the same “confident differentiator” status.
Client demand for agencies hasn’t dropped. The questions clients ask have changed, from “can you build this” to “should we do this.”
Commoditized deliverables (brochures, basic content, routine reports) are losing pricing power fast. Strategy, judgment, and direction are not.
29% of clients expect fee reductions tied to AI, while clients working with a differentiated, authoritative agency are willing to pay more, not less.
Chasing AI as a standalone offer is a shrinking window. It’s already table stakes, and clients want it used intentionally rather than pitched as the product.

Great Moments

[02:43] – What separates a “confident differentiator” agency from the rest
[05:49] – Only 13 to 16% of agency owners fully execute their own top priorities
[07:56] – Gerstner reconciles the two seemingly contradictory client statistics
[14:07] – What the pricing data shows about fees, AI, and expertise
[17:49] – Niching down doesn’t mean picking one industry, it means having a focus and sticking to it
[20:17] – The hidden challenge: retraining an existing team that isn’t built for the work agencies need now

Memorable Quotes

“There’s a reason the compass was invented before the clock. It’s because it’s more important to know where you’re going.” — Brian Gerstner
“There is still probably more opportunity than ever before if you can take the time to see it.” — Brian Gerstner
“If you focus down, if you niche in, if you lean into an area, it is an investment. It’s hard. Growth is painful.” — Brian Gerstner
“Coming in the strategy door is a far better relationship than coming in the vendor door.” — John Jantsch
“The moment other people start saying these people have a great reputation in this area, that’s when you’re truly establishing that confident differentiating position.” — Brian Gerstner
“You’re gonna have to hire a strategic thinker who can become a leader, because the doers, we can outsource.” — John Jantsch

Resources

Agency Core research: agencycore.org
White Label IQ: whitelabeliq.com

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.806)

So nine out of ten clients say their agency makes them more likely to succeed. I guess that’s the good news, right? four out of those ten are also planning to cut back on their relationship within a year. We’ll talk more about that. So, hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Brian Gertzner. He’s the co-founder of Agency Core, an organization that does independent research study.

Brian Gerstner (00:50.782)

It’s a pleasure. How are you, John?

John Jantsch (00:53.104)

Brian Gerstner (01:09.034)

John Jantsch (01:25.91)

Yes.

Brian Gerstner (01:39.144)

John Jantsch (01:50.925)

Yes.

John Jantsch (01:56.813)

Brian Gerstner (02:43.785)

John Jantsch (02:50.016)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (02:58.05)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (03:11.805)

John Jantsch (03:15.35)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (03:41.063)

And how those individuals are much more successful and competent.

John Jantsch (03:46.176)

And and not just revenue, profit, probably, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (03:49.258)

John Jantsch (03:57.045)

okay.

Brian Gerstner (04:19.401)

The the attitude here.

John Jantsch (04:19.734)

Brian Gerstner (04:37.502)

I need a

John Jantsch (04:47.17)

Not picking on dentists, just you know, it’s more the the approach. So so what does your sir survey say about that kind of hesitation of like, I don’t wanna turn other you know, other stuff away.

Brian Gerstner (04:58.901)

John Jantsch (05:11.436)

Yeah yeah. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

Brian Gerstner (05:28.199)

John Jantsch (05:31.404)

Yes.

John Jantsch (05:49.343)

So one of the I see this all the time. 13 to 16% of agency owners say they’re fully executed on the strategies they name as their top priorities. what’s up with that?

Brian Gerstner (06:01.141)

John Jantsch (06:09.538)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (06:13.026)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (06:31.731)

John Jantsch (06:38.531)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (06:58.247)

John Jantsch (07:12.888)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:19.224)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (07:26.921)

we’re not going to be able to be competitive. And what wh I really like gives me a lot of hope about this is once again, it’s about the fundamentals of marketing are still so true.

John Jantsch (07:35.69)

Brian Gerstner (07:40.707)

yeah.

Brian Gerstner (07:56.502)

John Jantsch (08:14.966)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Gerstner (08:25.841)

John Jantsch (08:37.386)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:46.485)

Right.

John Jantsch (08:55.532)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Gerstner (08:55.951)

John Jantsch (09:36.012)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (09:40.61)

Brian Gerstner (10:37.823)

John Jantsch (10:42.134)

Yes.

John Jantsch (10:47.701)

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (11:07.628)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Gerstner (11:07.859)

To some degree. but I think the decision’s gonna get made for you, good or bad.

John Jantsch (11:39.49)

Brian Gerstner (12:01.725)

yeah.

Brian Gerstner (12:05.653)

John Jantsch (12:10.029)

Sure. Mm-hmm.

Brian Gerstner (12:35.199)

John Jantsch (12:47.277)

Sure. It’s like when social media came around. There were all these social media social media marketing agencies.

Brian Gerstner (12:52.521)

John Jantsch (13:03.629)

Sure, sure.

John Jantsch (13:08.331)

Yep. Yep.

Brian Gerstner (13:23.061)

John Jantsch (13:30.273)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:41.441)

Yeah, look at all the hundred thousand dollar stalled AI projects that a lot of corporations launched.

Brian Gerstner (13:45.781)

Yeah, we’ve had funny we we have our own graveyard. We have our own graveyard, but we’re learning from every one of it. I call this you know, this is definitely education.

John Jantsch (13:54.19)

Brian Gerstner (14:07.893)

John Jantsch (14:27.741)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brian Gerstner (14:36.575)

John Jantsch (14:43.234)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (15:05.585)

John Jantsch (15:17.735)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (15:26.743)

Brian Gerstner (15:52.471)

John Jantsch (15:57.526)

Right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:02.273)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Gerstner (16:04.924)

John Jantsch (16:07.275)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (16:33.834)

John Jantsch (16:40.962)

Right.

John Jantsch (16:47.275)

Yeah, yep, yep, yep. Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:54.625)

Yep. Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (17:02.612)

John Jantsch (17:07.33)

yeah.

John Jantsch (17:13.644)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:19.369)

Brian Gerstner (17:30.506)

What? Yeah. You just don’t see it ’cause you’re so in it a lot of times.

John Jantsch (17:35.147)

Brian Gerstner (17:54.059)

John Jantsch (18:05.899)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (18:13.719)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:22.711)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Gerstner (18:24.714)

John Jantsch (18:42.156)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:50.133)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Gerstner (18:54.622)

John Jantsch (19:03.819)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:11.917)

Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (19:23.878)

John Jantsch (19:32.993)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Gerstner (19:49.738)

There’s still probably more opportunity than ever before if you can take the time to to see it.

John Jantsch (19:56.556)

Brian Gerstner (20:07.146)

They really are. Yeah. And the the pressure you’re putting on your own team are very different. You know, it is you have to retrain your entire team a lot of times.

John Jantsch (20:13.484)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:17.183)

Brian Gerstner (20:31.914)

Okay.

Brian Gerstner (20:36.086)

John Jantsch (20:50.177)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (21:01.363)

Brian Gerstner (21:05.137)

Okay. Well,

Brian Gerstner (21:23.924)

Yeah, I mean, yeah.

John Jantsch (21:28.173)

Brian Gerstner (21:41.771)

John Jantsch (22:07.469)

Awesome. Well again, I appreciate you stopping by. Maybe we’ll run into you one of these days just up the highway there.

Brian Gerstner (22:12.692)

Right. Appreciate it, John.

The Marketing Channel AI Can’t Commoditize

The Marketing Channel AI Can’t Commoditize written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch The Full Episode

Overview

Duct Tape Marketing Podcast cover graphic featuring host John Jantsch for the episode The Marketing Channel AI Can’t Commoditize

Marketing output is up everywhere, and John Jantsch has good news about where to point it. AI has made it easy for anyone to put out decent marketing content, so the businesses that stand out now are the ones building genuine trust, not churning out more content. Buyers lean on AI engines to help them choose, which puts a premium on being the business people and machines both recommend.

Jantsch explains that the back half of the Marketing Hourglass (retention, repeat business, referrals) is where meaningful advantage lives now. He returns to three ideas from his 2010 book, The Referral Engine, still his bestselling book by the numbers, and shows why they matter more today than when he wrote them. The episode covers why people are wired to refer, how a simple referral system turns that instinct into growth, and why being referable comes down to a value proposition people love passing along.

This one’s for small business owners, agencies, and consultants ready to turn referrals into a growth engine instead of a happy accident. Jantsch walks through partner referrals, an underused channel, using his work with Mike Michalowicz’s Prosper Group as an example, and leaves listeners with two exercises to try this week.

About John Jantsch

John Jantsch is a marketing consultant, speaker, and Wall Street Journal bestselling author known for the Duct Tape Marketing system. He is the author of Duct Tape Marketing, The Referral Engine, and The Ultimate Marketing Engine, and hosts the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast.

Key Takeaways

AI has made competent marketing cheap and widely available, making differentiation harder for buyers to spot
Buyers increasingly rely on AI search engines and AI models for recommendations rather than doing their own comparison shopping
Referrals are the most trusted lead type because they lower perceived risk, making referred customers less price sensitive
A referral system requires two components: a process for asking, and a clear, easy to repeat explanation of the value you provide
Partner referrals, meaning other businesses that share your ideal client, are a bigger opportunity than most people realize because one strategic partner can refer far more business than a single satisfied customer

Great Moments

[00:02] – John opens with the core premise: marketing output is up, results are down, and AI has made his 2010 book more relevant than ever
[02:23] – Why getting chosen has become harder, and why doubling down on retention and referrals matters more than chasing new leads
[07:08] – The three ideas from The Referral Engine: people are wired to refer, referrals need a system, and referability depends on a clear value proposition
[09:28] – Why partner referrals are a bigger opportunity than customer referrals, illustrated through the Mike Michalowicz Prosper Network partnership
[12:12] – How AI models are pulling recommendations from customer reviews and social proof rather than traditional authority signals

Memorable Quotes

“A referral is the most trusted lead in most cases.” — John Jantsch
“No amount of systems or processes or great copy are necessarily going to generate referrals if you are not referable.” — John Jantsch
“Machines are talking to machines now to make a referral, if you want to look at it that way.” — John Jantsch
“The second half of the hourglass has become probably the most important element.” — John Jantsch

Resources

The Referral Engine: Teaching Your Business to Market Itself by John Jantsch
Profit First: A Simple System to Transform Any Business from a Cash-Eating Monster to a Money-Making Machine by Mike Michalowicz
The Prosper Group — Mike Michalowicz’s business partnership program, referenced as a partner referral example
DTM Business Advisor Program

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:02.776)

So marketing output is way up everywhere, right? But results are kind of down. Phones are ringing less than they did two years ago. I wrote a book in the and 2010, and I think the answer to this challenge is sitting in that book that I wrote then. And I’ll explain why AI has made that book possibly more relevant than ever. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast.

This is John Jantsch. I’m doing a solo show. let’s title this AI Just Made Referrals, Your Most Important Channel. So let’s dig in. So as I said at the outset, AI has made competent marketing cheap, passable marketing. Everyone can produce decent content, email ads, I mean, in an afternoon. Now, what nobody says is everybody’s working harder than they did before because they’re trying to manage the machine now. But

Fact of the matter is everybody jumped in, everybody sounds the same now. You know, buyers can tell you, can’t really tell who’s good or not good anymore. the way that they search now, they’re depending and relying on the AI engines to actually give them recommendations. ad costs are doing two things. Ads are doing two things. used to be a really reliable channel. Now ad costs are soaring and their effectiveness is way down. I mean, we

We certainly are seeing that with many of our clients and we’re seeing it ourselves. But I think the biggest thing is that buyer behavior has changed, and I think that that is going to really make a a really shift in marketing from, you know, I talked about many, many years ago I created the marketing hourglass. The idea being that, you know, most people focus on the front half or the top half of that, no like trust, try.

that that you know, getting the phone to ring, getting leads generated. And I’ve said for many, many years that it’s the back half of that. When somebody buys, when they repeat, when they refer, you know, those are the stages of the buyer journey that we really need to be focused on today. it’s hard to get chosen today, with a lot of what’s going on, you know, the noise, the just the fact that, you know, if if AI

John Jantsch (02:23.727)

it doesn’t include you in the short list, you know, somebody may never come to your website or check you out. And so, you know, getting chosen has become more difficult. But what that really means, I think, is instead of doubling down on getting chosen, maybe double down on retention, on repeat business with those ideal clients, and and certainly on a systematic approach to referrals. The top half of the hourglass, you know, the lead generation part has gotten really cheap, but it’s gotten less effective. So

Again, as I said, the second half of the hourglass has become probably the most important element. You know, I told you in the intro that a book that I wrote in 2010. Most people certainly, if you were gonna ask a lot of people that follow me at all, they would say, well, Dark Tape Marketing’s your best book, right, or your best-selling book, or certainly the one you’re known for. I mean, it’s frankly, it’s the name of this podcast, it’s the name of of you know my website, it’s the name of my business, quite frankly. So

But however, the book that I wrote in twenty ten, The Referral Engine, Teaching Your Business to Market Itself, is is actually in terms of pure numbers my best selling book. And a lot of people wouldn’t wouldn’t know that. But I think it really it still sells well today. and I think what that really is a testament to is it’s evergreen. The idea of of referrals is evergreen. it doesn’t take Twitter necessarily to get to a referral. And I think that that’s really

At the foundation of this, because a referral is the most trusted lead in most cases. It’s a lead that comes to you expecting to pay a premium or at least not price sensitive because somebody has told them, somebody they trust already, even if it was in a review of somebody they didn’t know, talked about the fact that you solved that problem. That was proof. You were just saying it in your marketing. Somebody else said it about you. And I think that that.

really leads people because in a lot of cases people aren’t that they’re not completely price sensitive, especially for, you know, trying to solve a big expensive problem, but they’re risk averse. And so it it it lowers the risk. And because of that, they’re willing to pay more. because let’s face it, I mean, going with the low price leader, you know, involves a lot of risk. If that’s the only

John Jantsch (04:44.303)

decision or or that’s the only data point that that you’re using. And so I think a lot of people are okay with paying more if they can actually feel that that risk of a total failure. and and it’s not just money. I mean it’s it’s time, it’s energy, it’s what we’ve invested. You know, we we get pitched every single day, as I’m sure many of you do as well, on services that want to generate leads for us. And you know, a lot of the pitches or a lot of the value

Proposition pitch is that, hey, we’ll generate 10 appointments and if they aren’t good, you don’t pay a thing. Well, it really kind of belies the fact that you put a ton of energy, you put a ton of your reputation, you know, into getting some sort of cold outreach thing going. And if it flops, okay, you didn’t pay the service to do it, but now you’ve lost opportunity, you’ve lost time, maybe you’ve sullied your reputation in the process. And I think that a lot of people.

Don’t really talk about those types of costs when you know people are really pitching you. So here are three ideas from the book that I think matter the most now. people are wired to refer. I have said this for many, many years. Now it’s not everyone, but certainly a lot of people, if they’ve had a great experience, if they have something unexpected has happened to them along the way, they will talk about it. And so that’s what I mean we’re wired.

refer there there certainly are those people out there that are connectors i mean that’s they get a lot of juice from that idea of of being able to induce people but i think the real thing is if somebody’s had an exceptional experience they they are wired to talk about it most businesses that are doing anything halfway decent are getting some amount of referrals it’s you know it’s unpredictable it’s accidental you know it’s hope that that they get those and so

what this book, what the book introduced is the the idea that you need to create a system around it. It needs to be intentional. You need to have processes in place that actually make sure that you are taking advantage of your referability. I mean, this is not about tricking people into referring you. You’ve got to do that first half. You’ve got to have a referral service, you have to be referable. but once you are, then you have to amplify that referrability.

John Jantsch (07:08.587)

And I think that I I, you know, that’s point number three. I kind of stepped on stepped on it. But I mean, I think that’s really the the key there is no amount of systems or processes or great copy, you know, are necessarily going to generate referrals if you’re not referable. And a lot of that referrability comes down to being able to communicate what it is that you do that would be of value.

to the person, like what’s in it for them in a lot of ways. That’s always going to be a consideration, even if what’s in it for them is they just want to help their friend out, or maybe they just want to help you out. But they’ve got to understand what that value exchange is going to be, is going to contain. This is a piece a lot of people miss. I mean they miss this in marketing in general. Your value proposition or what you are going to do when you are referred has to be easy for them to understand and therefore easy

For them to explain. You put those two comp those two things together. a system where you are actually asking for referrals and then a way to actually teach somebody why they should refer you and how they should refer you. and you really are very far along the path. Now, there are many other things that you can build into this. You can build timing, you know, like when to ask for referrals, you know, especially with customers. there’s always going to be kind of

moments of truth when you want to ask for them. You can build tools. You know, having web pages, they they don’t necessarily have to be open to the general public, but when somebody wants to refer you, just say, hey, send your friend to this page. Make it really easy for them as well. And I and you know I’m gonna I’m gonna finish this with a a few just kind of steps that I think everybody should take. But we actually I want to tell you you know I love customer refer

Referrals, but I think the real hidden opportunity that most people don’t tap is in partner referrals. So other businesses that have your same ideal client as a client or prospect are are really the richest sources for referrals. And the reason I say that is because a a good customer might know two or three people, two or three businesses they could refer you to.

John Jantsch (09:28.223)

strategic partner business might have a hundred that they could refer you to over time. And so I think that that is is reason enough to really focus on that channel. And I think most people when they think of referrals, they just go after their customers. And again, they know how brilliant you are. It’s an obvious channel, but the real goal is if you could do develop a system to go after businesses that could refer you as well. So

for one example, many of you know Mike McAllowitz, author of Profit First. he also has a network that’s called the Prosper Network, where he actually helps businesses turn their businesses around and grow them and you know apply a lot of the the things from his books to those businesses. Well he

has you know seen that in many cases a lot of their clients stumble because marketing. They don’t have a strategic approach to marketing. They’ve hired agencies or they’ve hired people to to do their marketing. And just because not everybody takes a strategic approach, it just feels like kind of tactic of the week. So Mike has started bringing businesses to us to actually do a strategic audit.

on their business, a marketing audit on their business, and then make recommendations that frankly have turned into fractional CFO or CMO engagements. I think we’re working with three businesses of his with there’s another advisor group out there business advisor group that is starting to send us businesses. So we formalized this. I mean frankly it came about because of the relationship.

that I have with Mike as as many things do, but we’ve now formalized this. So we actually have an offering. We have a web page for it. We’re actually out there pitching, you know, other like EOS implementers and profit first professionals and fractional CFOs because they really are running up against the fact that marketing is is a is is always going to be a hurdle in trying to help a business grow and expand or exit. And so we can help them patch that.

John Jantsch (11:34.772)

And I think that a lot of it has to do with our approach. we are not just coming to them as a typical agency. I mean, our approach is more closely aligned with their business advising because we always start with strategy. But again, that’s really just an example of a way that you can structure one of those that can can really turn into a in some cases, you know, a very steady stream of of referrals.

John Jantsch (12:05.751)

Another kind of twist on the whole AI environment that we’re in.

John Jantsch (12:12.337)

testimonials, case studies, referrals, reviews, you know, all of these things have always been very important from a social proof standpoint. But increasingly what you’re seeing is people are turning to even the the search engines, which are now very powered by AI, or they’re turning to an actual AI model. and they’re putting very long like criteria. Here’s what I’m looking for. Well

Guess where a lot of those AI models are driving or or deriving, you know, the recommendations? They’re not necessarily like in the old days where it was like, well, you have the most authority, you’ve done the best SEOs, and now you’re going to win. They’re actually diving deep into voice of customer, what customers are saying in reviews, what they’re saying on social media sites, what they’re saying in Reddit. and they’re using that to compile who those are. So some of those businesses aren’t necessarily.

the biggest or the been around the longest or have the most you know spend in in marketing, a lot of cases they’re the ones that have really done a good job mining and amplifying what it is that their customers are actually saying about them. So machines are talking to machines now to make a referral, if you want to look at it that way. And so a lot of the energy that you might spend on building assets around referrals, on amplifying your case studies, on getting video testimonials, those are actually going to be

AI referral assets as well. So

Here’s your homework. Ask three AI assistants who they’d recommend for your category and compare that to what your customers say. That’s really where some of the gap’s going to be. So

John Jantsch (13:57.271)

Track, here’s another good exercise for you. Track the last 10 customer sources, like where they came from. and really think in terms of, you know, in the experience of onboarding, in the experience of getting that customer going, are there are there trackable moments or talkable moments where you could actually say, this is a place where we should start asking for a referral, for example. And then start thinking about who are those strategic partners out there.

Some of whom you might actually be working with already in some cases, that you could really start thinking about a formal program. If you want to learn more about our advisor program, how we’ve structured structured it to work with advisors, business advisors, it’s just dtm.world slash B A, like business advisors. So DTM.world slash business advisors. So

That’s all I have for today. hopefully this gets you thinking a little harder about the idea of referrals and what referrals where the the role that they’re going to play and do play, I think in this AI era is going to become increasingly significant. and I think just I guess just go buy my book. That would be that would be the easiest, fastest one. But actually, if you want us to design a system for you, if you wanna if you are a business advisor.

and you’d like to learn how we could work with your clients, those are all things that we’d love to do. just send us an email. All right, take care.

Book your Strategy First session

Rethinking the customer journey in the age of AI

Rethinking the customer journey in the age of AI written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Think about the last time you needed a service you’d never bought before. A new accountant. A contractor. Someone to fix your marketing.

Where did you start?

For more and more buyers, the honest answer is: they asked AI.

The research backs this up. 6sense found that 94% of buyers used a generative AI tool during their most recent purchase process. Adobe Digital Insights reports that AI referral traffic converts 42% better than traffic from other sources.

So right now, someone who needs exactly what you sell is asking AI who to hire. In seconds, they’ll get a short list of recommended names. You’ll never see it happen. And you may not be on the list.

The journey survived. The stages got rewired.

The path a buyer walks hasn’t changed. They find you, warm up to you, learn to trust you, take a small step, buy, come back, and send a friend. That part is human, and it isn’t going anywhere.

At Duct Tape Marketing we map that path with the Marketing Hourglass: Know, Like, Trust, Try, Buy, Repeat, Refer. A funnel pours people in the top and forgets them after the sale. The Hourglass widens again after the purchase, because repeat business and referrals are where the most profitable growth lives.

What AI changed is how buyers move through each stage. Walk through all seven with me and notice which ones feel thin in your business.

Know: how buyers find you

Buyers now run a full research phase inside AI before they ever reach your site. Someone asks “who helps a $5M HVAC company with marketing” and gets three names. “Best service near me” gets answered right in the AI summary while the map listings go unclicked.

And AI builds those answers from Reddit threads, directories, and reviews. Sources you don’t control. Forrester found twice as many buyers named AI their most useful research source than any other, ahead of websites, experts, and sales reps.

Whether you show up in the answer now matters more than where you rank.

What wins: pages that plainly state who you serve and what you do, structured so AI can read them. Presence on the sources AI pulls from. A mix of organic and paid.

On the paid side, we ran a small test of ChatGPT Ads for a client at $500 a month. Within a few weeks it landed an $18,000 client, larger than their average deal, with a shorter sales cycle. The buyer got educated inside AI before ever reaching out.

Like: how buyers warm up to you

AI made competent content free. So competent no longer stands out. Blog posts that could carry any company’s logo. LinkedIn posts written in the same AI cadence. Advice that repeats what every competitor is already saying.

The human voice is the one thing AI can’t copy. The founder on camera saying something a competitor wouldn’t. A story from inside your business that only you could tell. A public stance on where your industry gets it wrong. A voice people recognize in two lines.

The rule I gave the room: use AI to produce, never to think.

Trust: how buyers come to believe you

The web filled up with fakes, so buyers doubt everything by default. Reviews that all sound suspiciously alike. Testimonials with no name and no face. Stock-photo “teams” and AI-generated headshots.

When anything can be faked, real and verifiable wins. Your actual face and your actual team. Named clients a buyer can go check. A video testimonial from someone people can look up. Pricing and process shown in the open. Getting quoted or interviewed somewhere you don’t control.

Quick gut check: do you have a named, real proof asset you could point to right now?

Try: how buyers take the first step

Buyers want to try before they talk to anyone. They research and self-qualify long before they’ll book a call. Yet in most small businesses there’s no step between “interested” and “book a call.” A buyer who isn’t ready to talk has nowhere to go, so they leave.

That gap is a leak, and it’s the cheapest one to fix. AI made a real, low-risk first step cheap to build: a 2-minute diagnostic that hands back a personalized answer, a free teardown of their current setup, a calculator or scorecard they can run themselves, or a small paid engagement instead of a leap to a big commitment.

A buyer who takes your first step arrives more qualified and closes faster.

Buy: how buyers decide

Buyers show up already decided. They’ve read your pricing and your reviews. They’ve compared you to 2 or 3 competitors. They’ve fact-checked your claims against AI. The last question in their head is “why you, and can I trust you?”

Your job moved from convincing to confirming. Make the yes easy with clear pricing, a plain statement of who this is for, and one obvious next step. Answer the last doubt before it’s asked with a comparison, a guarantee, or a real result. And make sure what AI and reviews say about you backs up your own pitch.

Repeat: how customers come back

Anyone can generate Know, Like, and Trust content now. A delivered experience still has to be earned.

Here’s the good news for small teams. AI can personalize the relationship at a scale you never could by hand. Onboarding that adapts to exactly what the customer bought. Check-ins timed to how they actually use what they purchased, rather than a generic drip. Friendly reminders when it’s time to reorder or renew. Churn signals that catch an unhappy customer before they walk.

Refer: how customers send a friend

AI can prompt the ask, but the referral still runs on a person. Trigger the ask right after a win. Hand the customer a ready-to-forward intro. Give them something that makes them look good for sharing it. And sign the thank-you yourself.

One question worth sitting with: what happens in your business that’s worth talking about? Pick one moment.

Now score your own journey

Grade yourself 1 to 10 at each of the seven stages. Be honest.

When business owners do this exercise, a familiar picture shows up. A strong Know score sitting next to a Try score of 2. A journey that goes quiet after the first impression. A referral that never gets asked for.

Every one of those leaks traces back to the same place: no strategy holding the stages together.

AI is a multiplier. Point it at a real strategy and it pulls the right clients toward you faster. Point it at scattered tactics and it spends your money getting you lost quicker.

Strategy first, then AI

Strategy First is the layer that tells the AI where to aim. Who you serve. What makes you the obvious choice. The message and content that carry through all seven stages.

You have the diagnosis. Now get the plan. Book a Strategy First session and we’ll walk your journey together and find the strategy underneath it.

AI Can Create Content. It Can’t Create Thought Leadership

AI Can Create Content. It Can’t Create Thought Leadership written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch The Full Episode

Overview

What if the ideas you already have are worth more than any marketing campaign you could run? That’s the question at the center of this conversation with Peter Winick, founder and CEO of Thought Leadership Leverage and co-author of The Thought Leadership Handbook: How the Experts Elevate Their Big Ideas and How You Can Too.

Winick breaks down the 5 thought leader avatars from his book, why activity isn’t the same as productivity, and how personal and systemic velocity work together to move ideas beyond 1 person’s reach. The conversation also covers where AI genuinely helps thought leaders, including how Winick’s team mined 650 podcast transcripts to write their book, and closes with the impact equation: simplicity, relevance, velocity, and share of audience. This episode is for consultants, authors, speakers, and business owners who want their ideas to travel further without depending entirely on their own bandwidth to carry them.

Guest Bio

Peter Winick is the founder and CEO of Thought Leadership Leverage, a firm that helps experts and executives turn their ideas into a business. He co-hosts the Leveraging Thought Leadership podcast and has spent nearly 2 decades working with authors, speakers, and executives, including 3½ years building out training, development, and speaking business for Keith Ferrazzi following the launch of Never Eat Alone. Winick is the co-author of The Thought Leadership Handbook.

Key Takeaways

Most thought leaders are strong at their craft but rank marketing far down their list of natural strengths, which is exactly why a system for spreading ideas matters more than talent alone.
Activity is not productivity. Working harder or filling more hours does not automatically translate to more impact or revenue.
Ideas need both personal velocity, what you do yourself to spread them, and systemic velocity, the channels that carry your ideas without requiring your direct involvement.
Holding back your best frameworks to protect future client work tends to backfire. Sharing complete thinking builds trust and often leads to higher-value engagements, not fewer of them.
The impact equation, simplicity, relevance, velocity, and share of audience, offers a practical filter for deciding what ideas are worth pursuing and who they are for.

Great Moments

[00:01] – Jantsch opens with the core question of the episode: are your existing ideas worth more than any campaign you could run?
[02:20] – Winick unpacks the “thought leader on the run” avatar, the most common of his 5 archetypes.
[04:13] – Discussion of why ideas can’t speak for themselves, and the difference between personal and systemic velocity.
[13:09] – Winick describes mining 650 podcast transcripts, 2.3 million words, to identify patterns for the book.
[16:18] – Introduction of the impact equation: simplicity, relevance, velocity, and share of audience.

Memorable Quotes

“Activity is not productivity.” — Peter Winick
“You’re irrelevant to 99.99% of the people on this planet. And that’s an amazing thing.” — Peter Winick
“The best thing you can get is a fast no. A maybe is the worst thing in the world.” — John Jantsch
“It’s the most cost-effective net new client acquisition tool I’ve seen.” — Peter Winick, on thought leadership

Resources

The Thought Leadership Handbook: How the Experts Elevate Their Big Ideas and How You Can Too by Peter Winick and Bill Sherman
Thought Leadership Leverage
Leveraging Thought Leadership podcast (hosted by Peter Winick)
Never Eat Alone by Keith Ferrazzi
The Referral Engine by John Jantsch

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.368)

So, what if the ideas you already have are worth more than any marketing campaign you could run? And what if the only reason they aren’t spreading is that you’ve never built a system to move them past your own reach? Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Peter Winnick.

He is the founder and CEO of Thought Leadership Leverage, co-host the Leveraging Thought Leadership podcast. And we’re gonna talk about his new book that he co-authored, The Thought Leadership Handbook, How the Experts Elevate Their Big Ideas and How You Can Too. So Peter, welcome to the show.

Peter Winick (00:40.674)

Thanks for having me, John. Appreciate it.

John Jantsch (00:42.504)

So I had Keith Farazzi on this show. Believe it or not, I’ve been doing this show since two thousand and five. I had Keith on when Never Eat Alone came out, and I know you have a bit of history with him. may maybe let’s start there.

Peter Winick (00:55.48)

Yes.

Peter Winick (00:59.18)

Yeah. So I started working with Keith in two thousand five actually when we launched Never Eat Alone and I worked exclusively for Keith for three and a half years. So I was brought in to build out the training and development business and I took over the speaking business. and this is in the Stone Ages, you know, before so many so many things, but it was an amazing, amazing experience. He’s still a dear friend. And it it it really gave me the

John Jantsch (01:17.514)

Yeah.

Peter Winick (01:27.618)

the the the spark to say, you know what? why be monogamous? Right. Like there’s lots of other thought leaders out there that could use help because Keith, as you know, is an amazing, amazing marketer. Most thought leaders, when you put on a list of paper what they’re really great at, great at, marketing doesn’t come up in the top 100.

John Jantsch (01:32.62)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:39.117)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:45.761)

Yeah, I I can’t tell you how many people have have come to me with and and thought leaders have written a book and they’re like, What do I do to start marketing? And it’s like, Well, that was about a year ago. So you’re you’re absolutely right. So in the handbook, you you actually introduce five avatars. There’s one that’s probably the one that that I thought was most intriguing, thought leaders on the run. so unpack that one for us. That’s that’s kind of the

Peter Winick (01:54.957)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah yeah. Exactly.

Peter Winick (02:04.3)

Yes.

John Jantsch (02:14.998)

The person that’s too busy doing the work to even consider themselves a thought leader, maybe, huh?

Peter Winick (02:20.28)

Well, the thought leader on the run, when when you break it down by the percentages over the five avatar, is the one that shows up the most. Why? Because it’s it’s i it it it’s how they operate, right? So what does that mean? It means, you know, and and it’s not that it’s good or bad, it just is, right? That in order for them to get the idea out, primarily they need to be in the room or in the zoom. So they tend to live a lot in airports, right? They’re going from event to gig to gig to gig, and they put on the

John Jantsch (02:27.085)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:45.28)

Mm.

Yeah.

Peter Winick (02:49.698)

thought leader hat or the author hat or the keynote speaker hat more than they do the CEO hat. Right. So typically when they come to us, the issue is, hey, I love my life. I’m blessed. This is amazing. I get paid the big bucks to go to be in Miami on one day and, you know, Arizona on another day. But I’m a little tired, you know, I’d like to sleep in my own bed. And from an impact standpoint, how do I get these ideas out to more people in more ways? And how do I balance my portfolio?

So it so the revenue generated is not a function of how busy was I last week, last month, last quarter.

John Jantsch (03:25.761)

S so one of the things that you another phrase that stuck with me, ideas can’t speak for themselves. you know, I

I wrote a book on referrals. my second book was called The Referral Engine. And in a lot of ways, that that was the premise of that. It’s like a lot of I think a lot of thought leaders, a lot of business leaders think, hey, I do good work, people will talk about me. You know, they’ll talk about the great results, you know, as opposed to doing anything intentionally, you know, around sort of amplifying the fact that they are referral. So

How do you actually get people to start thinking in terms of like that that that ties to that ideas can’t speak for themselves? How do you get people to actually start spreading that idea that intentionally that that they are worth referring?

Peter Winick (04:13.41)

Yeah, so I think there’s two questions there. Let me let me I hear that as two different or or two slightly different things. Yeah, right, right. so the the one is there are the ideas piece is how do we get the ideas out to the most people, the most relevant people most often. So to me, that’s typically a function of format and and and all that, right? So, you know, a book is great, people don’t read. I mean that’s a general statement, but like a book is not

John Jantsch (04:18.114)

There’s pr usually there’s six questions, but that’s that just to

Peter Winick (04:43.234)

Today is not what a book was. Video is awesome, but if you’re reluctant to get on video, you’re missing opportunity. There’s short form, there’s long form, whatever. So I so one is where do your ideas live and how does that align to where the folks that you’re trying to reach and connect with consume that information? That’s the first piece. The other piece, in terms of the ideas not speaking for themselves, is what I would think about as velocity, right? So there’s personal velocity.

John Jantsch (04:45.241)

Yeah.

Peter Winick (05:10.252)

You and I are talking right now, so I can’t be talking to someone else right now. Or if I if I was, that would be pretty rude or whatever, right? So there’s a limit to that. So my personal velocity is how I choose to spend my time to get the word out and get the message out. Now, this is more velocity than you and I just having a conversation. Although we’ve done that, and that’s great. We’re recording this, it’s gonna on your podcast. You know, lots of people hear it. That’s pretty cool. The system velocity.

John Jantsch (05:16.972)

Yeah.

Peter Winick (05:36.312)

Really thinks so personal velocity is pretty straightforward. What is it I, the thought leader, can do to get my ideas out on a on a consistent basis? The system velocity of what are the other ways it could go out that’s not dependent on me? Right. Me as the human, right? Me as the person. So there’s lots of other ways ideas get out in the universe. And are you in you know, are you choosing to participate in the right ones to meet your business objectives, which is your strategy?

John Jantsch (06:03.862)

Yeah, and and y you know, one of the challenges is there’s so many things we can do, so many things we’re told we should do. and so, you know, the I think one of the greatest skills possible is is developing focus and discipline, you know, to stay f just what you said, to stay focused on the few things maybe that you should do.

Peter Winick (06:09.465)

Yes.

Peter Winick (06:24.643)

Well, I would say yes end, right? So the yes end is the focus and discipline is great as long as you’re focused and disciplined on the right things in the right sequence to get the outcomes, which which is strategy, right? So that that to me, my clients and and you you know this better than I do, thought leaders that that we all know, they’re not lazy, right? They’re working really hard, they’re passionate, they’re evangelical in terms of what it is they’re doing. But you know, activity is not productivity.

And I think that’s a that’s a trap that a lot of thought leaders fall into. I’ll just get up, you know, I’ll I’ll work harder, do it faster, I’ll get twenty five hours in a twenty four hours day. And it’s like, Well, if you have ninety eight plates spinning in the air, you know, is that really good? You know, as opposed to like, you know, your point on the fewer, but it’s the right fewer. Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:09.548)

Well sure. Right. Yeah. That that was hopefully that was implied. so one of the things, one one common thing that I’ve heard over the years

whether they’re a thought leader or just a business owner, even, you know, that it’s like, I don’t want to tell how to do my secret thing that I do. but you know, but then they won’t need me. and, you know, I’ve I I know you take the opposite view of that and so do I. I mean, I’ve always felt like they don’t want to know how to do it. They want to know that I know how to do it. and so

Peter Winick (07:39.342)

Yeah, I mean, I think you know, there’s one word for that, and quite frankly, it’s stupid, right? So it it it it you know, like w when Stephen R. Covey wrote the seven habits, it wasn’t well, we’ll just publish five of them and you want the other two, you gotta send us some money. That’s just, you know, stupid, right? And I think the way it works is we put twenty years of models and methods and frameworks into the book. And exactly the argument you just made, but if you put it out there, why do they need you? More people will need us at a higher price point as a result of that.

John Jantsch (07:44.268)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:53.474)

Right.

John Jantsch (08:01.76)

Mm-hmm.

Peter Winick (08:08.675)

The subset of people that buy the book and read the book and do it yourself, that’s awesome. I love that. Like if we can help those folks, I never could have helped them. you know, they just can’t be clients right now. Now that might change down the road. And I think that’s really the the the piece. And you know, if you think about it from a keynoter standpoint, you and I have both seen fifty, hundred thousand dollar keynoters and you get their stuff on YouTube. So you’d say, well, why would I anybody pay to bring them in the room? Well, there’s a difference of of that’s a totally different experience than watching a YouTube video.

John Jantsch (08:18.86)

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:40.02)

You you mentioned the thought leader on the run was maybe the most prevalent. Who who who do you think has the most unreal realized potential now? Is that the same group? Or is there is that a different avatar?

Peter Winick (08:53.507)

You know, that’s an interesting piece. I mean, I would say they all have potential because of the different things that we have available to us today. Right. whether that’s, you know, the technology, the AI, the learning, you as as a thought leader today, you know, 20 years ago we’re talking about this to, you know, two old dudes sitting here talking about 20 years ago. The typical model for a successful thought leader was to publish a book every 18 months.

John Jantsch (09:20.652)

Yeah. War it was it was it was very effective, as a matter of fact. Yeah. Yep, yep.

Peter Winick (09:20.813)

Right. That was the your publisher put the gun to your head eighteen months, eighteen month now.

And yeah, and it worked until it didn’t? No, it worked until it didn’t. Now the reality is it takes the average author two, two and a half years to write a book. How can you get one out in 18 months? There’s a negative math problem there. So new was a relative term, right? You know, so I think now there are more options, more choices, more ways to get your stuff out. I do think that there are a lot more impact and legacy executives, right? So these are folks that are have had

John Jantsch (09:37.43)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Peter Winick (09:55.438)

Great success, typically commercially, whether they’re C-suite in a Fortune 1000 or they built up a business and sold the business, and they’re they’re at a stage in life where they’re like, you know, I’ve I’ve done the money thing, you know, checked all the boxes there. That’s all good. But what I’m really passionate now at this stage of life is X, whatever X is. And I want to do that. And I want to spend more time doing that. And I want to understand what that is. And the way I measure my success might not be, you know, dollars generated or number of keynotes, a number of books or whatever.

But how many people are starting think about my ideas? Are they being introduced as as as as part of the vernacular in in the business community or whatever communities I serve? There’s a lot of that going on now. Cause guess what? You know, the old days of retire sixty-two and be dead at sixty five, you didn’t have a lot of runway, right? Played shuffleboard for a couple of years and then good, you know, goodnight Charlie. Right now you got twenty, thirty years to figure out what you want to do.

John Jantsch (10:41.017)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (10:45.473)

Yeah. Yeah. And and it’s gonna be really painful twenty, thirty years if you don’t, right? I I think I think a lot of a lot of people are coming to that realization. Talk a I mean, I can’t like we’ve gone eleven minutes, this might be a record, and I haven’t mentioned AI yet. and talk about how I mean AI is just flooding the f flooding the thought leadership, you know, category, if you will. how does somebody actually

Peter Winick (10:50.927)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:12.225)

So so so to me, a thought leader, you know, originally was you had a framework, you had a couple of original ideas, you could put sixty seven thousand words, you know, into a document. But today anybody could do that in about in about half a day, right? So so what separates real thought leadership from just, I don’t know, semi smart sounding people?

Peter Winick (11:21.155)

Yeah. Hmm?

Peter Winick (11:33.069)

Yeah, I think, you know, you could fool some of the people. So I’ll tell you bad ways or or things that are not helpful to you, your brand, your growth as a thought leader to use AI and things that I’ve seen that are cool, creative, interesting, whatever. So bad ways are, you know, you could pick up a tool and say, Give me 40,000 word book on this, this, this, and this in the style of that, this and the other thing. And it’ll spit something out. Now, anybody, you know, y you know, with any

John Jantsch (11:37.229)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:44.141)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:57.143)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Peter Winick (12:01.934)

sort of IQ that’s in the three digits, we’ll look at that and go, There’s no there there. Right? Like there’s like there’s no there there. Right. There’s like, okay, that’s a lot of words on a page and

John Jantsch (12:10.327)

Yeah. Yeah, that that could have been a seven hundred word blog post.

Peter Winick (12:14.944)

Yeah, or or a podcast or or or or or a you know, whatever. So I think, you know, just because you can create a lot of stuff, now I think actually where you can create it, and you know this better than I as a marketer, content marketing, I think AI can do some really good stuff. From thought leadership, I think you have to say, okay, what is it good at and what is it not good at? So good at examples. I’ve seen lots of keynoters say, you know, I never spoke to this type of group before.

John Jantsch (12:31.566)

Yeah.

Peter Winick (12:40.75)

You know, newly minted IT professionals. Let me push my stuff through there and say, give me a few examples that would resonate most with this audience at this company today. So that’s research, right? I think for us, we did something that I think was kind of cool, but I’ll let you weigh in on that, right? The genesis of the book for us was a couple of years ago, I started playing around with with AI and chat and all that. Why? Because everybody else is doing. I’m like, I gotta play with this thing, right? And

John Jantsch (12:41.397)

Right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:47.107)

Yeah.

Peter Winick (13:09.934)

What I knew was we had a bunch of models and methods and frameworks. And I knew that that would never be a book, right? That would be an IKEA manual that nobody would read. Models, methods, frameworks. Like maybe there’s a subset of the universe that loves that stuff, my my dear friends, the engineers, but like that would not be something I would read, right? But I knew that we had this podcast. And at the time we had 650 episodes and we had transcripts. So I said, hmm, let me take 30 transcripts, and they were all categorized to a similar theme.

John Jantsch (13:17.633)

Yeah. Yeah.

Peter Winick (13:37.071)

And I threw it into chat and I played with it for hours and hours and hours over a weekend. And what it taught me was one, my memory is terrible. Because if somebody asked me what were your favorite, most memorable things from the podcast you’ve done, I would answer a few. But if you asked me the same question a week later, I might answer differently, you know. but it gave me themes and it gave me patterns and it gave me things to look, look deeper on. So what I did was what every sort of ADD CEO does on a Monday morning, they call their much smarter.

process oriented analytical COO. And I said, Bill, Bill Sherman, hey, I got this idea. You know, we’ve like talked about writing a book. We don’t want to write a book, but like I played with Chad over the week and I I think we can knock this thing out in like, I don’t know, a month, maybe two, you know, and here’s why. And he did the hmm, mm-hmm, you know, almost like somewhere between a therapist and somebody knows you’ve gone off the deep end. And he said, well, maybe, which is the non-committal, let let’s go check it out. Well, fast forward, 650 episodes at the time was 2.3 million words.

John Jantsch (14:34.231)

Yeah. Right.

Peter Winick (14:34.52)

Right. So if the average business is 50,000, that’s a lot of books. And Bill was able to come up with some real tools to be able to pull those patterns. And then we always went back to the tapes, right? many times we go back to the thought leader and say, You might not remember this conversation. And actually, we sort of took it a little out of context, but I want to talk to you about this vignette here. You know, this little story that you told. Can we talk about that? Because we’re writing a book. That gave us brilliance. And and to answer your AI question,

John Jantsch (14:38.295)

Yeah.

Peter Winick (15:00.036)

That would have taken us years and and six grad level interns and they like pizza and beer and to get paid every Friday. So that to me was a a smart use of AI in terms for for us to get to the book where we wanted it to be. So it is a a a good book for those that we we wrote it for.

John Jantsch (15:18.743)

Yeah, I you know, I’ve never done that with my podcast. I’ve done, you know, about twenty two hundred episodes now. I probably sh I mean, I I probably should do do that. I mean, I’ve had guests on three and four times, you know, and and or more, you know. I think Seth’s been on five times, probably. And I’m you know, I’m sure there’s something in there that that would be really interesting. And I that’s my favorite use, frankly, of AI is is analysis. you know, I just it it

Peter Winick (15:25.37)

There might be a vignette in there or two.

Peter Winick (15:31.706)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:48.611)

It’s just so much richer than I would ever come up with, even if I spent, you know, a hundred hours on it. talk to me a little bit about one of the things that I know that that I mean, this was part of Keith’s you know framework. And I’m I’m sure you’ve built it into yours too, this idea of impact equation, you know, like getting getting into rooms that you know you maybe don’t know how you’re gonna get into. so talk a little bit about how that idea influences some of the thought leaders you work with.

Peter Winick (15:51.418)

Total.

Peter Winick (16:06.897)

Mm.

Peter Winick (16:18.991)

Yeah, so I think every thought leader wants their work to have impact. Right? They just do. Like what we’re not writing this for ourselves, although sometimes we are at a moment in time. But the impact equation it was a way for us to say, how do you do this? Like, cause Keith’s secret sauce is the power of developing relationships. That’s his secret sauce, right? And Never Italy and a lot of his other books were sort of what that looked like, and then he’s evolved into sort of some different thinking today. So we looked at the impact equation because equations are cool, right? Like

John Jantsch (16:22.895)

Yeah.

Peter Winick (16:48.869)

They just are. And said it here’s how it what it looks like. Number one idea is simplicity. You got to get it down to its molecular. Now that sounds obvious and easy, but ask an academic that spent 25 years as the top of their game or world class at whatever, tell me the gist of your work in two or three sentences. Most can’t do it because it’s been beaten out of them. It’s not how they’re trained. It’s not whatever. And if you can’t make it like simple, then it’s not accessible. So there’s no point there.

John Jantsch (16:49.496)

Mm-hmm.

Peter Winick (17:17.317)

The next is the relevance to the audience, right? So you might have something that’s really, really simple. But if you gave me the the the simplest way to knit a blanket, it has no relevance to me. I’m not someone that knits. Now, somebody else that might be, my God, that’s that’s a hack that I’ll use every day. But like what’s the relevance to me? And then the next is this the velocity. We talked about velocity before. What are you doing to get it out there? And then what is the share of audience? And I think the share of audience piece is interesting. You know, if this was a startup, we’d be talking about total addressable market.

John Jantsch (17:27.801)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Peter Winick (17:46.662)

But one of the most freeing things for me and that I try to share with my clients is guess what, John? You’re irrelevant to 99.99% of the people on this planet. And that’s an amazing thing, right? Because all you need to do now is say, what can I do to be as relevant as possible to that point one percent that matters most? And maybe it’s 95% or whatever. But like for the most part, you know, you’re irrelevant, right? I’m irrelevant. And the the beauty of that is I don’t have to spend my time chasing my tail.

Right. Like I know that I wanna talk to people like you. I don’t wanna be on a podcast for you know, I don’t know, stay at home moms in Iowa. Bless their little hearts. But like those aren’t my peeps.

John Jantsch (18:23.46)

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s one of my favorite lines from Sandler. I had David on the show a couple of times, you know, over the years, was just he’s you know, the mo the best thing you can get is fast knows. you know, the idea of of the people are like the worst thing in the world is a maybe because now you gotta like worry about it for the the next six months and send eighty seven, you know, follow up emails and

Peter Winick (18:50.064)

Yeah, exactly.

John Jantsch (18:50.998)

you know, but for somebody to go, no, you’re not for me, you know, and obviously that’s in a sales environment, but but as a thought leader, clearly understanding who’s for you, who’s not for you, and communicating that. So people sort of self select whether or not they want to be in your universe, right? I mean, that’s part of the equation, isn’t it?

Peter Winick (19:07.355)

Yeah.

Yeah, and and you don’t want to be in the conversion business, right? If you have to spend a lot of your energy and effort, you know, it’s a great business model for the Mormons to work for them, but like it’s really expensive to try to convince someone that your way is a better way, that your way of thinking might help them. You could do a little bit of that, but if I gotta spend, like you said, you know, 10 phone calls trying to show you that my way is better than yours, why wouldn’t I talk to someone that’s already sort of absorbed some of my thinking and said, you know, I kind of dig what you say, and I think you could help me.

John Jantsch (19:12.558)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (19:17.834)

Yeah.

Peter Winick (19:38.021)

That’s just a better place for both of us to be.

John Jantsch (19:40.206)

Yeah, hundred percent. one of the I’ll I’ll ask you directly and and I think we’re be gonna be on the same page on this. what’s the biggest benefit of being seen as a thought leader? You know, even if it’s in a tiny pond, you know, of of your city of your city?

Peter Winick (19:56.464)

Yeah. Yeah. So I’ll tie this back to marketing because it’s what I believe, right? So we every one of us, I don’t care what business you’re in, whether it’s it’s it’s product, whether it’s services, professional services, selling consumer package, because we’re all being commoditized. That’s not a good thing, right? So if you’re being commoditized, what does that mean? Downward pricing pressure, lack of distinction between you and somebody else, this, that, and the other thing. So I believe, not for everyone, but

John Jantsch (20:11.694)

Yep. Yep. Yep.

Peter Winick (20:23.983)

Definitely high-tech, financial services, professional services, and and and many, many more, that thought leadership is the most cost-effective way to stand up from the competition, to show the world what you’re about, to put it out there. You can’t, you know, if I was going to come out with a new beverage, I could never outspend Coca-Cola. Just not going to happen. But you see these new beverages coming out now, for example, that are, you know, protein enriched or whatever, or probiotic or whatever. It’s like, okay, so if you’re going to put out a probiotic beverage, the first question I would have is.

What the hell is a probiotic beverage? That’s great leadership. Here’s what it is and why it might be beneficial to you, whatever. So I think take a step back and say, what could you put out there in the world to sh to punch above your weight, outshine your competition, and and you know, lead with your thinking. Because everything else that you do, if I’m an accountant, there’s a million other people that can do my taxes, right? If I’m a lawyer, plus or minus, you know, they’re all kind of the same. Consultant, like it’s just an agency. They’re all the same.

John Jantsch (20:52.643)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:03.15)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:11.642)

Yeah, hundred percent, yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:18.882)

Yeah. Well and and they they might not be, but that’s the perception. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I will tell you, I I actually took it into the home services business. I had a remodeling contractor that I convinced to do this in two thousand early two thousands to be a thought leader. And now they char they’re they’re the largest in their in their community and they charge a premium. that’s that was really the answer. I I mean you said it in a number of ways, but

Peter Winick (21:24.101)

That’s which is more important, right. Yeah. And I think

John Jantsch (21:48.814)

Being the seen as the thought leader, you can charge a premium. People expect to pay a premium, you know, for you. So

Peter Winick (21:53.541)

Well, and it’s a it’s you know, at the end of the day, it’s just math. It’s it’s the most my experience, it’s the most cost effective net new client acquisition tool I’ve seen. Right. So I’ll give I’ll give you another example that was, you know, you gotta be smart. I think it was ten years ago, my math could be wrong, when Massachusetts was the first state to legalize gay marriage. Okay, that’s cool. So what does that mean? Well, there was a divorce lawyer that happened to be gay, and he said, geez, here’s what’s gonna happen in the next six, eighteen, twenty-four months. I could put a stake in that ground.

John Jantsch (22:10.649)

Mm.

Peter Winick (22:21.455)

And put out some thought leadership on the nuance of gay marriage because I’m gay, I’m a divorce attorney, so I’m I’ve got an advantage. Let me start putting this stuff out there because as they’re walking back down the aisle is probably not the time to handle my card. This will take some time. And and it did. Like you didn’t have to be a genius to figure out, you know, more people that weren’t able to get married got married. Yeah, it’s definitely a new category, right? And and when that time came.

John Jantsch (22:21.752)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:27.672)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:39.448)

Yeah, yeah. It’s a new c a n a new category of business, so to speak. Yeah, that’s that’s funny.

Peter Winick (22:48.015)

He was already putting articles out there and things out there or whatever that that market came to him as opposed to spending big bucks putting out, you know, billboards or whatever the divorce attorneys might do.

John Jantsch (22:52.59)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (22:58.33)

So so Peter, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the the show. Is there some place you’d invite people to find out about your work and obviously the pick up a copy of the Thought Leadership Handbook?

Peter Winick (23:11.599)

Well, the Thought Leadership Handbook is, as they say, available wherever books are sold. So you can find them in the usual places. You could find me at our site, which is thoughtleadershipleverage dot com, and on, you know, all the typical socials.

John Jantsch (23:24.312)

Yeah, awesome. Well again, great catching up with you and I appreciate it and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Peter Winick (23:30.938)

I will. Thank you. Thanks, John. Thanks for having me.

Did AI Make Referrals Your Most Important Marketing Channel

Did AI Make Referrals Your Most Important Marketing Channel written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Something odd is happening in marketing right now.

Output is way up. Results are down. Business owners tell me they’re publishing more content, sending more email, and running more outreach than ever, and the phone rings less than it did 2 years ago.

Here’s what I think is going on.

The great flattening

AI made competent marketing cheap. Any business can now produce a decent blog post, a polished cold email, and a professional-looking ad campaign in an afternoon.

So everyone did.

The result is a flood of marketing that all sounds the same. Buyers can’t tell who’s good anymore because everyone looks good on paper. And when everything looks professional, professional stops meaning much.

Two more shifts pile on. Ad costs keep climbing, and I don’t need to quote a stat you’ve already felt in your own budget. And buyers are doing more of their research inside AI assistants. They ask ChatGPT or Claude who to hire, get a summarized answer, and may never see your website at all.

Add it up and the channels most businesses depend on for new customers (content, ads, outbound) are getting louder, pricier, and less believable all at once.

The half of the journey nobody can automate

I’ve taught the Marketing Hourglass for 2 decades: Know, Like, Trust, Try, Buy, Repeat, Refer. Unlike a funnel, it widens back out after the sale, because the customers you keep and the fans you create are where the best growth comes from.

AI just made that second half a lot more valuable.

Anyone can generate Know, Like, and Trust content now. A delivered experience still has to be earned. So does a customer telling a friend, “hire these people, they took care of us.”

The bottom half of the Hourglass gets built one customer at a time, and that’s exactly why it’s about to become the highest-return part of your marketing.

I wrote this book 16 years ago

In 2010 I published The Referral Engine. The argument was simple: referrals are too important to leave to chance, so build a system that produces them.

Here’s a fact that surprises people. I’m known for Duct Tape Marketing, but The Referral Engine is my best-selling book. It still sells today, 16 years on. Owners have always understood at a gut level how much referrals matter, and the book keeps finding readers because the problem never went away.

What most readers didn’t have back then was urgency. Referrals stayed the nice-to-have channel, appreciated but never built for, because ads and SEO and email were working fine.

They’re working less fine now. And the ideas in that book turned out to be built for this exact moment. Here are the ones that matter most.

People are wired to refer

Making a good referral feels good. It’s social currency: introducing a friend to a great business makes you look smart and useful. That wiring didn’t change when the tools did.

Which means your customers want to refer you. Most just don’t, because nothing in your business makes it easy, obvious, or timely.

That’s a system problem. System problems have fixes.

A referral system beats a referral hope

Most owners treat referrals like weather. They happen or they don’t.

But a referral system has the same parts as any other marketing system: a clear picture of who you want referred, language your sources can borrow, an offer that makes the referrer look generous, a trigger for when to ask, and a way to track what came in.

Here’s the part that’s new. Follow-through used to kill referral programs. Somebody had to remember to ask, personalize the thank-you, keep partners warm. AI handles that kind of follow-through well now. The strategy still has to come first, but the old excuse about not having time is gone.

Referability comes before referrals

No tactic fixes an unremarkable business. Before any referral campaign, answer one question: what happens in your business that’s worth talking about?

Close the gap between what you promise and what customers experience. Then engineer one moment worth retelling. The surprise check-in. The problem you fixed before the client noticed it. The onboarding that felt like a welcome instead of paperwork.

Referrals are the byproduct of experience design.

Your best referral source may be another business

Direct referrals come from customers. Indirect referrals come from strategic partners: businesses that serve your exact customer right before or right after you do.

For most B2B companies, the partner engine is the bigger one, and the less built one.

Try this. List the 5 businesses your best customer hired in the 12 months before they hired you. That’s your partner shortlist. Teach those firms exactly who to send you, give them something worth giving away, and send business back on purpose.

I’ll give you a live example from our own shop.

My friend Mike Michalowicz runs a group of business advisors called Prosper. These are the people founders already trust with profit, operations, and the big picture. When one of their clients needs marketing leadership to hit a growth target, guess who gets asked for a name.

We’re working with 3 clients right now who came to us through that group. The engagements are going well, and going well is the whole engine: results for a referred client are what produce the next referral. Just recently, another advisor sent us a new client the same way.

The part worth studying is the order of events. Those first referrals showed up on their own. The system came second. Now we’re debriefing the advisors who send us business to learn what prompted each referral, defining exactly which founders we want sent our way, and building tools an advisor can hand a client the moment marketing comes up in a planning session.

Your business almost certainly has a pattern like this running right now. The work is spotting it, then formalizing it.

And a quick word if you’re a business advisor yourself. When a client needs marketing leadership and you want to hand them a name you can vouch for, that’s the exact gap our advisor partnership fills. See how the advisor partnership works.

The new part: AI is listening to your customers

Here’s what makes a 2010 book feel current in 2026.

When someone asks an AI assistant who to hire, the answer gets assembled from reviews, testimonials, case stories, and mentions scattered across the web. Your customers’ words are the raw material AI uses to describe and recommend you.

Word of mouth now travels machine to machine.

That turns review generation and testimonial capture into discovery infrastructure. Every satisfied customer is writing part of your AI sales pitch.

Try it yourself. Ask 3 different AI assistants who they’d recommend in your category and your market. Compare what they say to what your best customers say about you. The gap between those two answers is your work.

Where to start

Four moves for this quarter:

Track where your last 10 customers actually came from. Most owners are surprised by how much of their growth is already referral-driven.
Pick one moment in your customer experience and make it worth talking about.
Build your partner shortlist using the exercise above and set up 2 conversations.
Ask for reviews at high points (right after a win, a renewal, a thank-you email) and make it a 30-second task for the customer.

Do it in that order. A referral push with no strategy underneath it is just another random act of marketing.

The businesses that win the next few years will treat the second half of the Hourglass as their primary growth channel and build a system to run it. The good news is that your competitors are all busy generating more content.

Stop Selling to People Who Were Never Going to Buy

Stop Selling to People Who Were Never Going to Buy written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch The Full Episode

Overview

Duct Tape Marketing Podcast cover art featuring guest Rob Snyder for the episode "Stop Selling to People Who Were Never Going to Buy," hosted by John Jantsch.

Most founders spend years chasing customers who love their product but never buy. In this episode, John Jantsch talks with Rob Snyder, a serial startup founder, Harvard Innovation Labs fellow, and operating partner at Grix VC, about the pull framework: a four-part model for identifying the customers who are practically guaranteed to buy because reality has already done the convincing for them.

Snyder walks through why traditional sales advice gets the physics backwards. Instead of trying to persuade prospects to want a product, he argues the real job is spotting people who already have an unavoidable project, a list of options that fall short, and nowhere else to turn. He and Jantsch dig into how this shows up in discovery calls, why chasing pain points is a trap, and how founders and service providers alike can use this lens to qualify leads faster and stop wasting energy on the wrong-fit prospects.

This conversation is for founders, consultants, and marketers who are tired of long sales cycles and prospects who nod along but never close. Snyder’s approach offers a practical way to rethink lead qualification, sales conversations, and even content strategy around real buyer readiness rather than guesswork.

Guest Bio

Rob Snyder is a serial startup founder, a fellow at Harvard Innovation Labs, and a former McKinsey consultant who graduated from Harvard Business School. He serves as an operating partner at Grix VC and coaches early-stage founders through his Finding Pull program. Snyder built the pull framework after years of struggling to convert customers who claimed to love his product but wouldn’t buy. He is the author of the new book, The Power of Pull: What You Need to Know About Customer Demand to Build a Successful Startup and Why Most Founders Get It Wrong.

Key Takeaways

The pull framework has four conditions: an unavoidable project, a timeline that can’t be delayed, existing options that fall short, and a real inability to solve the problem without you.
Pain points alone don’t predict buying behavior. What matters is whether a pain point has become an active priority.
Forget the product or service entirely when qualifying a lead. Focus only on the customer’s situation and whether they’re stuck.
Personas average across your customer base and can mislead you. A single strong case study from your best customer is a better design target.
The best discovery-call opener is simple: ask why they took the call. It surfaces the pull framework without asking for it directly.
When a prospect doesn’t have pull, don’t try to create urgency. Point them toward the trigger event that would make them a fit later, and move on.

Great Moments

[01:49] – Snyder describes the phone call that broke open his thinking about why customers weren’t buying
[03:56] – The four conditions of the pull framework are introduced: project, unavoidable, list of options, limitations
[06:12] – Snyder explains why founders need to forget their product entirely when qualifying leads
[09:10] – Why personas can mislead founders, and why a single best-customer case study works better
[13:38] – Snyder shares his goal of reaching 75 percent certainty on fit within the first five minutes of a discovery call
[19:02] – The single best discovery-call question for testing real buyer pull

Memorable Quotes

“If you don’t have pull, it would be weird if you bought. You just have other priorities, or your existing options are good enough. Nothing I do is going to change that.” — Rob Snyder
“The first step is to totally forget your product or service. Totally ignore it for a second and focus exclusively on the customer.” — Rob Snyder
“What matters is when, not if it’s a pain point, but if it’s a priority, if it’s something they’re actually trying to do something about.” — Rob Snyder
“I would much rather let reality do the convincing than me.” — Rob Snyder

Resources

The Power of Pull by Rob Snyder
Snyder’s website: robsnyder.org
Harvard Innovation Labs
Grix VC

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:02.075)

You know, most founders keep marketing to people who say they love the idea but won’t buy. My guest today spent years figuring out why, and his answer cuts against most of what’s written about marketing and sales today. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Rob Snyder. He’s a serial startup founder, fellow at Harvard Innovation Labs, an ex-Makkense consultant who graduated from Harvard Business School. He’s built

Multiple companies serves as an operating partner at Grix VC and coaches early stage founders through his finding pull program. We’re gonna talk about his new book, The Power of Pull. What you need to know about customer demand to build a successful startup and why most founders get it wrong. How did you get all of that on a book? Rob, welcome to the show.

Rob Snyder (00:54.25)

Thank you, it is the longest title. They pay me by the word.

John Jantsch (00:56.433)

Awesome. So you d at least for my reading of of your materials, you kind of went through the whole playbook yourself, did everything the experts said, still couldn’t get your customers to buy something that they told you that they thought was awesome. So how long did that go on and and what kind of finally broke it open for you?

Rob Snyder (01:20.834)

Yeah, was two years of the worst day of my career happening and being beaten every successive day where everything made sense on paper, seemed like they should buy it. They would nod in sales calls and then they wouldn’t buy. I just thought I was incompetent, uniquely incompetent until one day I got a phone call. Again, two years in, we’re just…

John Jantsch (01:23.921)

Ha ha ha.

John Jantsch (01:36.187)

Mm-hmm.

Rob Snyder (01:49.027)

The ego that one gets out of McKinsey and Harvard Business School had been crushed to smithereens at that point. And I got a phone call from a potential customer who I had tried to pitch to when he said, hey, yeah, I have no idea what you were trying to sell me. It wasn’t relevant to me. But I’ll pay you to do X for me. And I was like, all right. And that’s when it started working.

John Jantsch (02:11.94)

Yeah, so so how long I mean, you know, like all good consultants, you have a framework. it has, you know, four conditions and all those good things, but how long did it take you to kinda before we get into them, I mean, that was like a light bulb moment, but but that’s not like exactly where like all four things tumbled into place, right? So, I mean, how did you kind of unearth by trial and error these elements that you then put together in your framework?

Rob Snyder (02:39.104)

Yeah, it was when that customer called me that something clicked in my head and that it wasn’t really about my product. Like that was the first big aha moment. And it had nothing to do with my product at all. It was about something that was going on in their world that they were trying to do but couldn’t do. And that thing made my product relevant or not.

And so that was the first big light bulb moment. And then we launched our second product, which also went zero to a million really fast. And so I was like, wow, I’ve really got this now. And then a couple of my friends brought me into their startups to help them do the same thing. And so as I kept trying to apply what I had learned, it started developing from kind of an artisanal, like, I don’t know, I’ll just, let me try to copy paste exactly what worked for me.

into something where I was able to more understand the physics of it. And then the framework came way later.

John Jantsch (03:37.541)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (03:44.432)

So let’s let’s talk about the the four conditions. project unavoidable list of options and limitations. So put that together for us now that we have names for

Rob Snyder (03:56.525)

Yeah, so that creates the pull framework. The pull framework together defines a person who would be weird not to buy your product. Everybody else who does not have pull would be weird to buy your product. And so the four characteristics are the project. They have some project. They have something they’re trying to do. In marketing, you might think of this as a job to be done, project on to-do list, kind of same thing. That project has to be something they can’t delay. They can’t do it.

John Jantsch (04:10.068)

Yeah.

Rob Snyder (04:25.772)

you know, in six months or a year, they’re totally fine waiting or not doing it at all. So it has to be unavoidable. That’s the second one. But just because they have something they have to do today doesn’t mean they need you. So they have to be in a state where the list of options they have considered or tried are not good enough. They have limitations. And if all four of those things are true, they’re trying to do something that they are unable to do with their existing options, then you show up.

and they rip the product out of your hands. And that’s how the world works, I have found.

John Jantsch (05:03.673)

Right, so you you intentionally I think mentioned product several times in that description. Would this same approach really apply to, say, a consultant who’s selling a service of some sort?

Rob Snyder (05:16.6)

Totally, totally. Yeah, I’ve accidentally developed a consultancy out of this and it turns out it applies exactly the same to it. what I found is that product, people selling products think that it’s about the product. People who sell services think it’s about our cool frameworks and all of those, and our expertise and all the stuff behind it. And it’s still all about the customer’s poll.

John Jantsch (05:44.262)

So so is the first step we have to stop caring about our product, caring about our service. I mean, I I don’t mean that facetiously. I mean kind of like admit they don’t care about what we do. They want the problem solved or whatever it is. I mean, d is that does it take that leap first? Because I see it all the time. I mean, you know, you look at any web page and you know, ninety percent of it’s, you know, describing the product. so I mean, is that the first leap or mindset change that has to happen?

Rob Snyder (05:57.154)

Yes.

Rob Snyder (06:12.622)

The first step is to totally forget your product or service. Totally ignore it for a second and focus exclusively on the customer. And what is that situation they’re in where they’re trying to do something, they’ve considered different options and those options aren’t good enough. So they are stuck. And you just focus on that without even thinking about your product because it, for some reason is or service.

John Jantsch (06:17.414)

Yeah.

Rob Snyder (06:41.038)

If you or I just start thinking about our product, what we’re going to do is we’re going to describe that situation that we would like them to be in, not the situation they are actually in.

John Jantsch (06:50.449)

So a lot of marketers, I I wouldn’t say this is an advanced case, but maybe it’s a step forward, have realized that if they can point out pain points, you know, that that kind of sucks somebody in to say, yeah, okay, you can fix that thing for me. How is this maybe a step beyond that?

Rob Snyder (07:12.792)

So pain points are a thing that, especially in startups, we are told to go looking for pain points. Because if you find pain points, then they’re going to buy. I’ve just, my own startups, a bunch of friends startups have found that we’ve done hundreds of customer interviews where we find everyone’s nine out of 10 pain point. We have them rake it on a scale out of 10, and then nobody buys. And what you’ll learn from that experience is that most people who have pain points

are okay continuing on with their pain points, even if they are big and important pain points. So what matters is when, not if it’s a pain point, but if it’s a priority, if it’s something they’re actually trying to do something about. If you conflate those two, you are in for a world of hurt.

John Jantsch (07:45.626)

Mm.

John Jantsch (08:01.573)

Yeah, like that little hole in the ceiling that water forced through doesn’t really bother me anymore. I’m probably not gonna fix that, right? So Yeah

Rob Snyder (08:08.872)

Exactly, yeah. I have it where the sun comes through from 10am to 1pm every single day and blasts me in the eyes and it’s just like not a problem. Like it’s yes it’s a problem, yes it’s a pain point, but I just shift a little.

John Jantsch (08:19.417)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:23.117)

Yeah.

Again, marketers have been very trained to to build personas and and, you know, understand buyer behavior and what how do you actually take it that step of like somebody would be crazy not to buy your I mean, how do you find them?

Rob Snyder (08:40.642)

Hmm. Most businesses that are not zero to one already have found them. You have a bunch of customers already. If you look across your customer base, you have some people who bought really fast and are awesome and some people who have not and are not. They’re just not a good fit for you. And what we tend to do is we tend to design our marketing, our business around the average.

John Jantsch (08:55.727)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (09:00.731)

Yeah.

Rob Snyder (09:10.4)

of all of them, which is what a persona is, right? We’re combining a bunch of different characteristics of different people into, what I’ve found is instead of doing that, you focus on your best customer and you think about that customer’s case study, that customer’s poll, when they bought and you just design for that case study.

John Jantsch (09:14.533)

Right, right, sure.

Rob Snyder (09:35.758)

rather than an abstract persona, a concrete case study. And you just think about your business as, we’re just going to repeat that case study a bunch of times and find people who look at that case, we’re going to use that to sell, we’re going to use that forever.

John Jantsch (09:51.74)

So would you would if you were if I were gonna bring you into my business and and admittedly we have a lot of people that are not startups necessarily, they’re businesses that have been going for a while. But quite frankly, they have that mix that you just described. You know, t I I would venture to say twenty, thirty percent of most businesses have customers that they’d like given the choice, they would punt. but you know, they keep showing up and they keep serving them. would you if you walked into a business like that,

Rob Snyder (10:14.35)

Yes.

John Jantsch (10:21.457)

How would you sort of work backwards to to find like, here are your poll people?

Rob Snyder (10:26.06)

Yeah. So what I mostly focus on are if you’re doing sales calls, that’s really, really useful. And especially if you record the sales calls. So what I do is we say, okay, talk to me about your best customers. And in fact, send me their sales calls and then send me sales calls of people who have not been quite as good customers. And what you can do is you can actually listen to the sales call using the pull framework to say,

John Jantsch (10:32.463)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right.

Rob Snyder (10:55.404)

Okay, what was the project on their to-do list? They’ll often tell you, we just don’t listen for it. What was the project on their to-do list? Why was it unavoidable for them then? What options had they looked into? Why weren’t those options good enough? And you start to compare and contrast those really good customers with the other ones. This is not like a Harvard PhD activity. It is really just look at these two different calls, compare and contrast with the pull framework.

John Jantsch (10:59.545)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (11:18.875)

Yes.

Rob Snyder (11:23.968)

And then you start having some very interesting conversations on the back.

John Jantsch (11:28.961)

Would you even go as far as to say that if you that that you actually would use this as a filter to some degree? You know, because we we have people that show up all the time. It’s like I need marketing. Can you do marketing? Well, yes. But here’s how we do it, here’s who we serve, here’s who we can bring value to. And and I but but I know a lot of people also just, you know, somebody shows up and says they want marketing, it’s like, okay, I’ll send you a proposal. would you say that that

that you would go as far as saying you should almost run some sort of poll exercise to to qualify somebody.

Rob Snyder (12:06.513)

100%. Just think of all of the pain that comes from working with someone who’s not your best fit customer. I’ve done this a bunch of times where I worked with a PR firm that was not specifically for startups. They were for like certain kinds of business and we just spoke past each other and we were both frustrated with each other at the end. There are so many cases of this where by being ultra specific, you often think,

John Jantsch (12:12.303)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (12:20.24)

Yes, yes.

Rob Snyder (12:33.76)

Well, I’m not going to have enough leads. I’m not going to have enough, you know, companies coming inbound. Well, actually, the more specific you are, the more people look at you and say, wow, you are for me specifically. And then they come inbound. And so you actually get more lead rich and you disqualify people who won’t be a fit, who won’t appreciate what you do.

John Jantsch (12:36.762)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:53.723)

So a lot of a lot of interactions, especially initial interactions, are can be very brief. you know, you have your short discovery call or maybe they even fill out a form or something that, you know, that that’s all the information you get. Do you have some tools, scripts, techniques that that actually help somebody? First off, I guess the work is they’ve gotta actually be able to identify, you know, who those people are themselves, so they know what they look like, right?

Rob Snyder (13:18.67)

Yes.

John Jantsch (13:21.605)

But then do you have once they start generating leads, do you have tools or techniques that that really allow somebody to to sift through that? Because a lot of times I I have discovered sometimes you don’t really know somebody’s gonna be a fit until you’re kind of down the road a bit.

Rob Snyder (13:38.743)

Yeah, we’re actually a lot of the companies that I work get to our goal is in the first five minutes of a discovery call to have 75 % certainty on that this person will buy and be a good fit. And so that’s, that’s the goal to work towards. There are ways to get there. What I, what I find is that first of all, it is, you have to have your pull framework filled out for what your best fit customer is. You just have to know that if you don’t, then it’s just going to, you’re just not going to know.

John Jantsch (13:48.901)

Yeah.

Hmm.

John Jantsch (14:03.814)

Yeah, right.

Rob Snyder (14:08.394)

Once you have that filled out, then the beginning of the call, of a discovery call, is asking them to fill out the pull framework for you. Now, not actually pulling it up and telling them, fill this out for me, but it’s just saying, why’d you take this call? What are you hoping to get out of this? And they will often start to fill out the pull framework, and then you ask some clarifying questions there. And you don’t ask it from the perspective of like, all right, I want to convince you that you should buy.

John Jantsch (14:18.137)

Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rob Snyder (14:37.366)

You ask it leaned back saying, I’m not sure if I’m a fit for you. You tell me.

John Jantsch (14:42.543)

Yeah, yeah. So w when you kind of went from struggling to, you know, thinking, hey, I got this figured out, did it change how you sell sold from that point on? So so just describe how that change happened.

Rob Snyder (14:53.068)

Yes. a hundred percent.

So I had the wrong theory of sales. was totally backwards on sales. had a physics upside down, which I thought when I was just starting out that, okay, you build a good product that offers really a ton of value, solves big problems. And then what sales is, is that sales is a way to convince people to want your product and buy your product. But the core physics, if we use those terms are…

I convince you to buy. And what I realized, through lots of pain, was that I will never convince you to buy. If you don’t have poll, it would be weird if you bought. You just, you have other priorities, or your existing options are good enough. Nothing I do is going to change that. And so what I’ve realized is that sales is about basically them convincing me to let them buy.

John Jantsch (15:29.339)

Yeah, it’s

John Jantsch (15:39.057)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Rob Snyder (15:56.575)

or said differently, them trying to do something and being stuck. That’s what causes them to buy. And they will buy my product if I just get them unstuck.

John Jantsch (16:13.211)

So the the unavoidable step probably does some of the heaviest lifting, right? in the in the in the process, it seems like. what is what is what does that trigger actually look like? How do you find it? you know, g are there ways to find it like even before, you know, a sales call, like somebody somebody’s actually given the signal on LinkedIn?

Rob Snyder (16:36.076)

totally, totally. So it’s gonna be different for each company. I’ll give an example. There’s a company that sells to nonprofits that I know that sells them a reporting tool that they can use to raise money from donors. Well, when is that, when do they have an unavoidable project around needing to improve their fundraising? Well, it’s often when they’ve been trying to fundraise, maybe they’ve hired some.

and they are struggling to fundraise. And so all of the startups content that goes out is about that situation. Everything they post is about, so they attract people who are in that situation. So that’s the goal is I don’t wanna talk to people who don’t have you. So everything I’m putting out into the universe is to bring those people.

John Jantsch (17:25.105)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (17:29.947)

So let’s say I’m in a halfway through a sales call and I re like they don’t have pull yet. Do I try to change that in somehow or is it literally like, hey, come back when you when you got it?

Rob Snyder (17:45.036)

One of the most liberating things that founders and business owners tell me when they apply poll is that when somebody doesn’t have poll, they stop having to think about them. That you stop having, because think about, you have to convince them to change their priorities. That’s really hard to do. And then you have to convince them when they have a new priority to choose you over other options that they haven’t looked into. And it’s like, okay, that’s…

John Jantsch (17:47.203)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:57.158)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:05.253)

Yeah.

Rob Snyder (18:14.959)

That could happen, but then you’re have to convince them to use your product or service and you’re gonna have to convince them to value it. You’re gonna have convince them of all of these things. I would much rather let reality do the convincing than me. And so, yeah, you just say, okay, cool. It seems like you’re totally fine. One thing you might look for is XYZ happening. When one of those things happens, that might be when you’re a better fit.

John Jantsch (18:42.577)

So if somebody’s listening to this and they’ve got a sales call like this week or right after they listen to this, what’s one question they should add to that call to test whether a prospect has real pull?

Rob Snyder (18:57.923)

Hmm

Rob Snyder (19:02.863)

I would say, can I give you two? Is it okay if I give you two? Okay. The most important question to ask in a sales call is at the very beginning. So thanks so much for taking the conversation. Why did you take the call today? That question will almost always fill out the poll framework for you.

John Jantsch (19:05.115)

Sure, you bet, you bet, you bet.

John Jantsch (19:20.785)

Mm.

Rob Snyder (19:22.721)

Then, once you have some of the poll framework filled out, my favorite question to go to is, is, so maybe help me understand. I’m hearing that you’re trying to do this. You basically recap poll. But maybe I’m wrong. you know, maybe you help me understand. Is this something you actually need to do right now? And you can’t use your other options on? Maybe help, help, help me understand that. And people say when they first do that,

It’s like, feel like I’m convincing them not to buy. And what you’re really doing is you’re just testing if poll is actually there, if it’s actually real.

John Jantsch (19:55.77)

Right, right.

John Jantsch (20:01.531)

You know, though I suspect there is also a little psychological I don’t know what the right word is, pull behind that idea of maybe you’re not ready. So wait a minute, I’m ready to solve this problem. And isn’t there a little bit of that? It that that that pushing away kind of makes it more attractive.

Rob Snyder (20:17.974)

that-

Rob Snyder (20:22.255)

That is not the intention or the cause of it. It may be an unintended benefit of it, but what you do is what you don’t want. One of the things I always have in my mind in a sales call is imagine two people who are out to dinner where one of them thinks it’s a date and the other doesn’t. Like how poorly that can go. And that’s not what, you don’t want that.

John Jantsch (20:25.606)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:43.845)

Yeah. That’s a great analogy.

Rob Snyder (20:51.307)

in your sales call, where you think they’re likely to buy and you’re going to convince them to buy, and they don’t. And so that’s the purpose of this is just for us to understand, do they actually need help?

John Jantsch (21:04.325)

Yeah. It it really, you know, all the sales training and techniques and questions in the world are great, but again, it’s that it’s that work ahead of time, isn’t it? The that you know, going into that conversation, knowing what you’re looking for to to the point where, you know, I’ve been doing this 30 years. I mean I can have a conversation with somebody for about thirty seconds and I have a pretty good sense of whether or not it you know it’s gonna be a great fit. And I think people, you know, you do get better at that.

Obviously, but I think there’s a lot of work to be done to to get to that point, isn’t there? Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. so Rob, I again I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by. Is there some place you’d have people connect with you? Obviously find out about about the book, but I’m guessing you have a whole series of of tools and workbooks and sheets that

Rob Snyder (21:36.771)

Yeah, and hopefully the book helps people not have to take 30 years to get to that intuition like you’ve developed. Like, that’s the hope. But yeah, it took me way too long as well.

John Jantsch (22:01.75)

can help them master the pull framework.

Rob Snyder (22:05.209)

Totally, yeah, robsneider.org is where you can find everything.

John Jantsch (22:09.197)

Awesome. Well again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Rob Snyder (22:14.959)

Absolutely. Great to meet you, John.