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John Jantsch (00:00.855)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Mike Ganino. He’s a creative force behind some of the world’s most compelling speakers and thought leaders. As a keynote director, he’s helped shape viral TEDx talks, launch bestselling books, and transform leaders at Disney, Netflix, and Adobe into magnetic performers.

He’s the author of the number one international bestseller we’re going to talk about today, Make a Scene, storytelling stage presence and the art of being unforgettable in every spotlight. So Mike, welcome to the show.

Mike Ganino (00:35.234)

Thanks, thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (00:37.175)

So do magnetic people like stick to stuff?

Mike Ganino (00:39.852)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they just walk around and like they attach themselves to like warehouses and cars and it’s a good life.

John Jantsch (00:45.015)

I’m sorry, I couldn’t help myself. That was terrible. All right. So storytelling hot topic. I bet you now we’re only one month into the year, but I know I’ve done at least one other show on storytelling. So two things. Why do you think so? And it’s such a hot topic. And, and I suppose the follow-up to that is like, what are you bringing that’s different?

Mike Ganino (01:08.686)

It’s such a hot topic because like it fundamentally makes sense. We get it. see, you know, storytellers, whether we’re watching someone on stage or we’re watching a movie, we’re watching a play, we’re reading fiction, we get that storytelling does something to us. And I think that there’s an element of it that the reason why it’s this kind of like, it’s coming up and it’s coming up again and it’s coming up again is because so much of the education around it out there focuses on the fact that like storytelling is important.

you should be storytelling, everyone has a story, but not very many people are actually saying, how do you make a story interesting? Where do you actually start? And for me, that’s what I hope I’m bringing that’s not new, but is definitely different than, know, and I have so many of the books on like the psychology of it, the neuroscience of it, the history of it, but like, how do you actually, what’s the first thing out of your mouth? There’s not a lot of great resources on that.

John Jantsch (01:43.233)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:55.212)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:01.781)

Yeah. You know what I’m always fascinated with? I read a lot of stuff, probably verges on anthropology. And you know, that storytelling was it. Like that’s where it started. Right? I mean, that was the only way to communicate necessarily. And you, you told stories to stay out of being eaten. You told stories, you know, where the food was, you told stories about, know, who not to trust on the road. you know, is, is that sort of in our DNA kind of why you think storytelling, you know,

part of what makes storytelling so natural.

Mike Ganino (02:34.49)

I so. mean, I think, and I think there’s probably plenty of books out there that talk about that exact thing of like, is by, but, we are like wired. Like in a make a scene, wrote about how so much that we could be learning about how to tell more effective stories is about how to trigger a dopamine response from the audience in that anticipation of reward in your story. And so I don’t know our, our, you know, body chemicals respond to wanting to know what happens next and needing a solution. It’s like,

when you sit down and you watch an episode of Law and Order SVU and your brain, even though you’ve maybe seen it 27 times, you’re just like, ooh, I’ve got to watch this episode again, because we want to know what happens next. We want to understand and feel that. And so, yeah, I think it’s somewhere in there.

John Jantsch (03:17.879)

And then six hours later, you’re like, I better go do something else. So it’s in the title, Make a Scene. So, you know, what do you mean by that? Other than it, you know, cleverly works with the basis of storytelling as a scene, right? But there’s also you can also interpret that as, you know, somebody is making a scene, you know, in a maybe not altogether positive way. So where are you trying to what line are you trying to strap?

Mike Ganino (03:47.73)

I think both, you the idea was that it had that double meaning that often my storytelling advice for people is start in a scene. A lot of times what we hear, we hear this bad advice again of like, start at the beginning. And it’s like, well, maybe not, maybe we don’t need to start at the beginning or we’ll hear that we need lots of exposition or a great story, you know, has X, Y, Z in it. And most of the time, my advice to people is, can you just make a scene for me? Like if I’m the director of this film that you’re creating,

What would I put in front of the camera? And if the first thing out of your mouth doesn’t help me decide what I would film, then we’re probably in summary and not in story yet. So make a scene is literally my storytelling advice. And then secondarily, I just think there’s so many people that have read so many books about all the things they shouldn’t do when public speaking or going on video, get rid of your isms and change the way you sound and try to sound deeper, try to sound less shrill. Don’t move your hands too much.

get rid of all of your ums, that I thought, what if we just had a book that was like, all of that can actually be quite effective. And when we see someone do it who is effective, we don’t worry about how many times they said at all.

John Jantsch (04:52.595)

John Jantsch (04:59.511)

Yeah, I saw somebody that I think was one of the most impactful talks I’ve heard. And he leaned against the podium most of the time. But there was something about it worked for him. Yeah, yeah.

Mike Ganino (05:14.872)

breaks all the rules. In the book I wrote about Monica Lewinsky when she did her TED talk several years ago, she’s one of the only people ever in the history of that to have a podium in front of her on the red dot. But it was a device. And at the end, she stepped out from behind it as like taking back her identity. And so that even is don’t stand behind a podium. No one at TED is allowed to stand behind a podium, except you can sometimes if you know how to break the rule.

John Jantsch (05:27.084)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:39.223)

Yeah. So this is dangerous. Is there a definition of great story or great storytelling? Is there a framework? there rules? is there, you got to have this and this and this. mean, that was about eight questions. So take it anywhere you want, but.

Mike Ganino (05:55.654)

I think the ultimate measurement of a story, and this is why even in the book, I don’t go through all of these, like, here’s the one framework you need, because you could find 20 examples of that not working. And I think so many people have lost themselves trying to do the like, I need to tell a hero’s journey. And then all of a sudden you’re like lost in the dark soul of your night and you don’t know where you are or what side, and you’re like, I just wanted to tell them. But Yoda’s there, I think.

John Jantsch (06:18.113)

But Yoda shows up at least. mean so…

Mike Ganino (06:21.058)

goodness, know, Dios y machina, he’s gonna save us. But I think that, again, all of the, can the frameworks work? Sure. But I’ve got 30 books on screenplay writing over here. And if all of the frameworks worked, every single movie would be a runaway hit. It’s not. I think the measurement of story is, is the pacing correct? That the audience is kind of like, wants to know what happens next, that they’re never saying, maybe they’re saying to themselves,

I can’t wait to see where this is going versus where is this going? You want the first version not the second. Does it cause an emotional response? Do they hate things? Do they love things? Do they feel things? I think those are ultimately the measurements. And when we start to look at storytelling and measure, did you have five acts? Did you have seven beats? Did you have this? We’re measuring the wrong thing instead of measuring what was the audience’s feeling from what they had. Did it do its job?

John Jantsch (06:53.047)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:11.777)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:18.561)

So I’m not sure if you work with these people, but there are certainly people out there probably listening who say, I’m just not good at story or I’m not as natural born story. Cause you, we’ve all met somebody you’re like that could talk all day long, you know, tell stories from their youth, you know, all day long. But a lot of people just, just really hesitate. I mean, it’s the same with getting on stage period, but you know, when you, when, somebody says I’m not a good storyteller, what do you do with that person?

Mike Ganino (07:30.422)

Yeah

Mike Ganino (07:46.402)

I generally ask them questions. Like when I have a client who says, I’m not a good storyteller. Like when I work with a lot of executives who are going to have to go out and speak to their company or speak at a convention or conference. And they’ve been sent to me usually by their like chief communications officer to say, help them be less boring. And I say, great, tell me some stories. I’m not a good storyteller. I just stick to the facts. My general thing is great. So the thing that you just told me, you just told me that AI is a great solution for small businesses. How do you know that to be true?

Where have you seen that to be true? I ask questions like that that are like, show me some of your personal experience with it. And that almost always gets them to be able to tell a story. Now, we need to shape it. We need to kind of clean it up a little bit, but it gets them to realize that they actually can tell stories. The issue is that they’re measuring themselves against like Steven Spielberg or Mel Robbins or something like that. And it’s like, we don’t have to all have the story of an astronaut who was in space. We can have just a, happened on a Tuesday story.

John Jantsch (08:24.171)

Yeah,

John Jantsch (08:30.806)

Yeah.

Mike Ganino (08:44.61)

that is a metaphor or just an example, if you know how to tell it. And usually that’s my way in with people who say, I’m not a storyteller. say, cool, no problem. That’s certainly a strange job to have anyway. Like there’s not a lot of people who get paid well being a storyteller. So don’t worry about that. But can you tell me how you know the thing that you just said is true? When did you see that? How’d you learn it? And we started locking stories out.

John Jantsch (09:05.929)

a little Byron Katie. I don’t know if you’re familiar with her work, but, but it the essence of that. Can you know that that’s true? Yeah, that’s so, so, you know, a lot of people naturally think, especially you work with speakers who are on stages, but storytelling is a part of life, right? It’s a story of, it’s certainly a part of a lot of elements of business. So, you know, how do you get somebody to start realizing that?

Mike Ganino (09:08.278)

Yes. Yeah, the questions, right? Like, how do you know that to be true? I’ve read that book.

John Jantsch (09:34.251)

They don’t have to want to be a paid speaker to be better at storytelling.

Mike Ganino (09:38.862)

It’s really that idea of if you’re, I think there’s very few people whose job is not to communicate with others and very few people whose job is not to get others to see something the way they want them to see it. And that doesn’t mean it has to be some persuasive, like you’ll change your mind, but like, I just want you to understand the situation the way that I do. And a story is often a very effective way to help them see it or say, oh, that’s interesting. Yeah, I didn’t think of it in that situation or scenario in a way that the data or facts alone couldn’t do. And so,

When I’ve worked with organizations like Disney or Adobe and Netflix, Caesars Entertainment, it’s helping them see that like, helping the audience understand the situation they’re in. If they’re in a sales meeting, if they’re a leadership at an all hands trying to convince the team that we have to like, know, buckle the purse straps a little bit, cause things are going to get tough. The most effective way to help them understand the situation is to put it into a narrative that they can say, I get that. I kind of, I don’t like it, but I see where you’re coming from. That makes sense now. Or.

I understand how the analogy you used about, you know, your grandma growing up is exactly like the situation we face. Okay, cool. I’m with you now. And so it’s helping them realize that all of those instances are times where a story could do a lot of the heavy lifting that a whole bunch of facts would have to do.

John Jantsch (10:54.293)

Yeah. And I think sometimes like in a sales environment, right? Stories are kind of disarming, right? We’re all of a sudden, we’re listening to the story. We’re building rapport. We’re building trust rather than being sold to. Do you think that, and you know, we’re 10 minutes in, I’m going to mention AI for the first time. Although I think you did earlier. I feel like, do you feel like I should ask you that storytelling is actually going to be a differentiator?

Mike Ganino (11:13.974)

I did, yeah.

John Jantsch (11:23.957)

You know, because AI doesn’t know my story. It never will. I mean, it might make up some stuff, but you know, my true authentic story that somebody might relate to is probably all I’ve got left, isn’t it?

Mike Ganino (11:35.928)

Yeah, and your takeaway from the things you experienced. So even if it’s not like your origin story, because sometimes people get lost with that of like, need my story. And I think, I don’t even know what my story is, but I got a whole bunch of them that helped me do my job every day. And I think that that’s the thing that AI can’t get. It could probably at some point learn something. We can shove enough blockbuster screenplays in there to work, but also we’re dealing with human feelings on the other side. So as soon as it starts to work, it’s going to start to not work anymore.

John Jantsch (11:48.519)

You

John Jantsch (12:05.473)

Yeah.

Mike Ganino (12:05.75)

And so those little stories of something you saw yesterday when you went to drop your kid off at school that made you think about something, AI will never know that because it’s always going to be lagging. It’s always going to be behind. And so I think that our ability to communicate in a way that actually makes people feel something, if we go back to like, how do you measure a story? Well, did it elicit a feeling in the person that is going to be such a differentiator because

We have all of the news of the day, all the history of the world, anything we want to find. You could even have AI. I’ve seen people do it like, know, pop in there and say like, here’s my goals for my business this year. What should I do? It can do all of that work, but it cannot do that storytelling piece of connecting something you experienced and almost holding it out. And I don’t remember who originally said this of like, hey, have you ever felt this way too? That is going to be such a differentiator, I think.

John Jantsch (12:59.671)

How big a part is the performance part? So the story or the words, the way you express the expression, but you know, how you act on stage, your body language, how you use your voice, your hands. I’m trying to gesture right now. But so how much of that is what really takes a good story over the top?

Mike Ganino (13:21.816)

I think a huge percentage of it, you know, in the book I talk about these five stage languages, which are the five ways that an audience interprets and understands our full meaning, right? The first one is verbal, the words you choose, the stories you tell, all those things. The second one is voice. Just the way that we sound signals to the audience how to feel. If, you know, I was working with someone recently, an executive, a chief marketing officer, and she was getting asked to go speak more frequently, and the feedback she’d gotten is that her voice was difficult to listen to.

And when we got on a call, we started working together. It’s that the whole time she was really up here this whole time speaking like this. And she thought, this is just how I sound. But she also was holding her chest. She wasn’t breathing. She was gasping for air. And all of those are defensive mechanisms. All of those are learned behaviors. And so we did some exercises just to have her kind of like drop her, her larynx a little bit, which is going to make your voice sound a little more grounded. And she was even shocked of like, is that me? And it’s like, yeah, you haven’t heard that voice in a long time because

John Jantsch (14:14.07)

Mm-hmm.

Mike Ganino (14:19.98)

You have been on guard probably for lots of valid reasons, your childhood, your I don’t know what, who told you what? But we show up in this world physically and vocally shaped by everything that’s happened to us. And then we think that all we need to do to be an effective communicator is put the words in the right order and stop saying But the sound of our voice is actually what the audience hears, not even fully the words, the pacing of our voice, the speed at which we do. If we’re on stage, I had this recently, I was reviewing someone’s video.

and the physical language is the third one. So verbal, voice, physical. And he was trying to have this moment where he was saying to his team, know, trust me, I’m with you, but he was moving backwards from them on stage. And I said, that is a signal to them of you’re hiding something, something isn’t right. And you’ve seen it before too, like, right? Like someone with a hand in their pocket. I think in the book, I use the example of Nixon and Kennedy. And when seen on TV, that debate that they had that was aired, Kennedy,

John Jantsch (15:01.662)

Right, right.

Mike Ganino (15:19.518)

overwhelmingly won because he looked calmer, he was tan from a resuscitation. Nixon had just had surgery and was sick and sweaty and pale and looked thin in his suit. But when people listened to it, they thought Nixon won because he had that more gravitas voice, that more distinguished voice. And so the way that we look, sound and move is not, we cannot separate it from the message we communicate to an audience. We simply can’t. It is a core part of what they take away from us.

John Jantsch (15:31.915)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:48.993)

So for somebody that just hasn’t done much of it wants to get started. mean, somebody comes to you and says, Hey, I’m, I’m in this new role or whatever it is, and I need to be doing a lot more. need a coach for this. mean, what are the free throws? Like what’s the, what’s the thing you have them do that is practice.

Mike Ganino (16:06.882)

The easy thing is to say, are all the low stakes places where you can try some of this on that like won’t matter? if you have a, I just did this with a chief finance officer. He was like, hey, I want to be a better communicator. I’m getting asked to speak at X, Y, and Z, go on podcasts. Their PR people are trying to get him onto like MSNBC to be, you know, a talking head in these places because it’s helpful to their business. And he said, so how do I practice? Do I get ready for that show? And I said, well, you don’t.

John Jantsch (16:09.9)

Yeah.

Mike Ganino (16:33.762)

get ready and the first time you deliver anything is in front of the real live audience where the stakes are super high and your nerves are going to take over. What kind of meetings do you have every week? Can you start off the meeting with some kind of story or metaphor that helps the team understand something? When are you going to go into a board meeting, which is relatively, you know, something a CFO does all the time, so not super high stakes, and how can you help them understand a situation that’s going on or

where some kind of money is being allocated using a story. How can you play with, for him, some of what we’re working on with his physicality and his ability to smile and soften his face on camera, because it all came across very harsh. So said, those are all things that you can, on your next Zoom call with your team, be more aware of how are you looking at the camera? How are you leveraging and playing with your voice? How are you using your physicality? And so,

All of those places are spots where we can test things. You know, even for me, so many ideas in the book are things that I’ve tested through group coaching calls with my clients, through live workshops with my clients, through being on podcasts like this and trying out different stories and seeing what resonates and saying, ooh, people seem to like that and mention it back to me. I ought to put that in a book, you know, which is the more high stakes version of doing a podcast or a group coaching Zoom call.

John Jantsch (17:49.675)

Yeah, you alluded to the Zoom call. I mean, we are on a lot of formats now, right? We’re on stages, but we’re also doing our own video. We are doing virtual presentations. We’re on podcasts. Do we need different stories, different approach, you know, for each of those?

Mike Ganino (18:08.482)

I think that the stories probably have some universalness to them. Maybe they’re told slightly differently because the context, you know, if you’re on a stage telling a story versus, and it’s part of a bigger insight in a keynote, that might be different than if you’re on a Zoom call with your team. But the medium definitely changes it. for folks, one of the big things that people get wrong with having the camera is they want to be looking at the audience, to see the audience on their little Zoom camera, on the little Zoom screens to connect with them.

But there’s a flaw in that for a couple of reasons. One is we have no idea what they’re looking at. And so someone makes a grimace. Well, they could be watching a TikTok that upset them, or they could have gotten a text message from someone. We have no idea. And then we respond to that thinking, I’m boring. Versus when we’re on camera, our job is to have a relationship with the piece of glass in front of us, to be able to look through the lens and to have enough energy that this thing that absorbs these cameras absorbs so much of our energy that we can still.

deliver what we want without being obsessed of having a live audience like we would on stage. So I think that the stories can have, you if you’ve got three or four good stories that work in your business to set it up, like you probably don’t need a whole bunch more, but understanding the difference of telling them in a, a stage, in a boardroom, sitting around a table, in an interview with someone or telling it to a camera and even here, right? The difference between doing it for

John Jantsch (19:17.483)

Yeah, yeah.

Mike Ganino (19:31.98)

social media versus doing it in a group coaching call. All of those are different mediums. And so that’s where you can leverage, know, voice can be different. Physicality can be different.

John Jantsch (19:39.319)

Right, right, right. Yeah, wouldn’t use your big booming projection voice with five people in a boardroom, right? You’d freak them out. You know, one of the things I, my one little tip, and you probably tell this to people all the time, but when I do, especially group Zoom calls, I turn my view off, camera view off, because I find myself looking at myself and I may be way over there at the corner of the screen as opposed to, then once that’s off, all there’s left to look at is the camera.

Mike Ganino (19:46.956)

Yeah, yeah.

Mike Ganino (19:58.54)

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Ganino (20:08.62)

Yeah, you know what I have? got this, I got an Elgato teleprompter and I have it on the front of my camera with the zoom screen of the person I’m talking to. So I actually am just seeing you right now through the glass and it’s quite helpful.

John Jantsch (20:09.047)

John Jantsch (20:20.277)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause you have to look at the camera at the same time. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I also have, this little, Plexo glass, camera holder. And so what it does is it, can put my camera in it and then I can move the camera anywhere I want. you know, it’s just one of those little screen, you know, those cameras you’d put on a screen. but I can, I can move it around that way. So, it’s really nice for doing a lot of that as well.

Mike Ganino (20:39.622)

nice.

Mike Ganino (20:44.12)

Yeah.

Mike Ganino (20:49.24)

fun.

John Jantsch (20:50.379)

Well, Mike, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to find out more about your work and obviously find a copy of Make A Scene?

Mike Ganino (20:59.756)

Yeah, I’m easy. Once you figure out how to spell Ganino, I’m usually the one you’re going to find. So G-A-N-I-N-O, Mikeganino.com. The book and all the information about it is at Mikeganino.com slash book. And it’s wherever you like to get your books. We’ve got it everywhere for you.

John Jantsch (21:14.123)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days soon out there on the road.

Mike Ganino (21:19.224)

Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (21:22.999)

Okay, you’re supposed to get a little…

Storytelling Converts Better Than Sales Tactics Every Time

Storytelling Converts Better Than Sales Tactics Every Time written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with David Garfinkel

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed David Garfinkel, a copywriting expert and author of The Persuasion Story Code. David is widely regarded as one of the top authorities on persuasive communication, storytelling in marketing, and direct response marketing. His expertise lies in helping businesses, marketers, and entrepreneurs craft compelling messages that drive sales conversion and customer engagement through effective storytelling.

During our conversation, David shared why sales storytelling is a far more effective approach than traditional sales tactics. Instead of relying on hard-selling, businesses can use storytelling frameworks to build trust, rapport, and emotional connections with their audience. He also introduced the concept of “stories with a dollar sign,” explaining how the right storytelling tactics can increase audience engagement and ultimately lead to more conversions.

David Garfinkel’s insights on persuasive communication and sales storytelling reinforce why businesses should focus on crafting the right storytelling tactics rather than relying on outdated sales methods. By integrating compelling narratives into marketing strategies, companies can enhance audience engagement, build stronger connections, and drive business growth through authentic storytelling.

Key Takeaways:

Persuasion beats pushy sales tactics – People connect more with compelling narratives than with aggressive sales pitches.
Storytelling drives conversions – Using marketing copywriting with a strong storytelling framework can eliminate objections and move prospects closer to a sale.
Empathy in marketing matters – Stories that resonate with customers’ pain points help build trust and business storytelling strengthens brand loyalty.
Case study storytelling creates credibility – Demonstrating real-world success through case study storytelling reassures potential customers and removes doubts.
Marketing strategies must evolve – Businesses need to shift from old-school selling to persuasion techniques that make customers feel understood and valued.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing David Garfinkel
[00:54] Story Frameworks
[03:11] What are Persuasion Stories?
[05:22] How to Make a Conversational Story
[06:48] Merging Stories and CTAs
[09:09] Using Stories to Get Attention
[12:39] Mistakes in Storytelling
[13:28] Learning from Your Favorite Books
[15:30] AI in Storytelling
[18:51] Is There a Formula to Storytelling?

More About Matt McQueen:

Check out David Garfinkel’s Website
Connect with David Garfinkel on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

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Weekend Favs February 8th

Weekend Favs February 8th written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.

DeepSeek: AI company specializing in advanced language models and AI assistants.
Gamma: Platform for creating and sharing presentations, docs, and webpages.
Insense: Influencer marketing platform connecting brands with content creators.

These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Connect with me on Linkedin!

If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.

Low Budget, Big Impact: Crafting Video Ads with Humor

Low Budget, Big Impact: Crafting Video Ads with Humor written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Emily McGregor

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Emily McGregor, founder of Penguin Cat Creative, a copywriting agency specializing in high-converting marketing funnels and campaigns. With over 20 years of experience in video marketing, comedic content, and creative advertising, Emily has helped bestselling authors, top influencers, and e-commerce brands craft compelling, humor-driven video ads that engage audiences and drive sales.

During our conversation, Emily shared powerful insights on how businesses—regardless of budget—can leverage humor in marketing to enhance customer engagement, build a strong brand voice, and create video ads that resonate. By tapping into emotional marketing, storytelling in marketing, and advertising psychology, brands can stand out in a crowded digital landscape.

Emily McGregor’s expertise in comedic advertising and creative video ads proves that humor, when done right, can be a game-changer in digital marketing strategies. Whether you’re working with a tight budget or looking to refresh your brand voice, leveraging humor can lead to more customer connection, higher social media engagement, and increased sales conversion.

Key Takeaways:

Comedy is a powerful marketing tool – Humor in marketing creates instant emotional connections, increasing customer trust and engagement. It helps brands stand out while making complex topics more relatable.
Know your audience deeply – Effective comedy in branding requires understanding your audience’s pain points, language, and humor style to craft content that truly resonates.
Lean into constraints for creativity – Limited budgets shouldn’t be seen as obstacles; instead, they can inspire innovative, high-converting marketing strategies. Simple locations, clever concepts, and strong storytelling in marketing can outperform high-budget productions.
Authenticity matters in video ads – Today’s consumers are drawn to real, engaging content. A well-crafted, humorous video marketing campaign builds customer connection and drives social media engagement.
Storytelling drives success – The best video marketing isn’t just about jokes; it’s about weaving humor into compelling narratives that highlight brand voice and reinforce marketing funnels.
Test, refine, and optimize – Creating impactful comedic content involves iteration. Even professional comedians tweak their jokes based on audience response—businesses should do the same with their marketing campaigns.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Emily McGregor
[01:12] What is Comedic Content?
[02:32] Comedy Great for Customer Connections
[03:44] Is There a Formula to Funny?
[04:27] Comedy Communicates You Understand
[05:47] How Low Budget Ads Can Compete
[08:49] Developing a Brand Voice with Humor
[09:57] Which Industries Can Use Comedy?
[10:59] The Comedy Writing Process
[13:49] When Jokes Fall Flat
[14:25] Understanding Your Ideal Client
[15:47] What is the Place of Video in Marketing Channels?

More About Emily McGregor:

Check out Emily McGregor’s Website
Connect with Emily McGregor on LinkedIn

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.19)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Emily McGregor. She’s a seasoned creative with over 20 years experience in video sketch comedy, marketing and leading dynamic teams as the founder of Penguin Cat Creative. Her copywriting agency, she has crafted hundreds of high converting marketing funnels and campaigns. Her work has helped bestselling authors, top influencers, e-commerce giants.

and industry leading coaches achieve remarkable success selling out events, tripling membership signups and exceeding launch goals. So Emily, welcome to the show.

Emily McGregor (00:38.99)

Thank you so much for having me. it. Well, Penguin Cat, technically it’s right behind me there. It is a penguin and a cat, and it’s an adorable logo. It’s basically a penguin with cat ears and whiskers for people not watching on video. Yes, it is. is.

John Jantsch (00:41.104)

So first I need a visual. What is a penguin cat?

John Jantsch (00:54.776)

Okay, awesome. And very memorable, right? Which is half the battle, right? So I said before we got started, you pitched me kind of three ideas for the show and I’m gonna mash them together because I like them all. So we are gonna talk about video, but you have a background in comedy and specific, I don’t know, is this a term? Comedic content?

Emily McGregor (01:08.718)

Great.

Emily McGregor (01:20.046)

Sure, yeah, yeah. I think it’s a term. Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:21.634)

So let’s define that. What is comedic content? I know that sounds like a silly question, but I think we ought to sort of have your take on it.

Emily McGregor (01:30.902)

Yeah, so just to be clear, I’m a behind the scenes writer of comedy, so I’m not going to do standup on this podcast. I haven’t actually, no, I’m like very not. like, I’ve directed a lot of comedy. I have a lot of patients for comics. think it makes me a better director, but yeah. So yeah, don’t, don’t ask me to do my type five today, but yeah, in terms of what is, what is comedic content? I think it can mean a lot of things. think.

John Jantsch (01:36.745)

you’ve done some improv. You’ve done some improv. I know you have.

Emily McGregor (02:01.708)

Especially when it comes to marketing and things, think there’s a tendency to be like, comedy is just jokes and it’s just like punch lines and, you know, set up punch lines, set up punch line, things like that. And especially with marketing, think it’s important to think about it as more like humor as a whole and humor more as an ecosystem, as a tone, as a voice, as more of like a mindset behind your content rather than just telling a bunch of quippy little jokes, because that can get very repetitive very quickly and actually hurt your brand. Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:27.26)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So from a like connection, people connection standpoint, and obviously potential customer connection standpoint, you know, why do think comedy is such a great tool for that?

Emily McGregor (02:35.534)

Mm-hmm.

Emily McGregor (02:44.076)

Yeah, think it’s, I think there’s a lot of reasons. I have like a million reasons. I’ll try and cut it down. I think a big one is it’s sort of like the ultimate no like trust, like shortcut, I think. Because if you can talk about somebody’s like pain or what they’re struggling with in a funny way, you’re really showing them and not just telling them that you deeply understand that problem to the point where you can make a joke about it. And you can talk about it in way that doesn’t make them feel shame or make them feel bad about it. It’s like bringing lightness.

to the problem, which makes them feel good, while still highlighting that you’re the solution to it. So I think it’s a beautiful way and a really powerful way to kind of shortcut a lot of marketing pitfalls in terms of talking to your audience.

John Jantsch (03:27.398)

There’s probably some brain, there’s probably some brain chemistry in there too, right? know if I, if I want to pick me up, I just go watch Nate Margottsi for about five minutes, you know, and, and I feel better, right? So there’s probably some science to it there, right?

Emily McGregor (03:31.244)

Yeah. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah, it’s like literally disrupts the cortisol in your body and gives you a dopamine hit. Like, yeah, there’s like pure neuroscience behind it too,

John Jantsch (03:42.576)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So if somebody’s sitting there thinking, okay, yeah, I’ve got to be funny in some of my stuff, you know, like, is there a framework? Is there a formula? mean, being funny is not easy.

Emily McGregor (03:56.814)

No, it’s not. It’s not easy. It’s sometimes harder. yeah, mean, a framework, yes, I think it really starts with like knowing your audience to such an extreme level. know, that’s true in any kind of marketing. need to know your audience so deeply. With comedy, you need to take it one step further or a million steps further in terms of really understanding

where they’re coming from on a very specific and niche basis and having the confidence and ability to go there and make content that will relate to them in a comedic way.

John Jantsch (04:39.408)

Yeah, I always tell people, know, in creating core messages, you know, we want to communicate like, what’s the problem that you promised to solve? Don’t tell me what you do. You know, what’s the promise? And I think it’s the ultimate way to say, you get me. And I’m sure comedy, if you make a joke about something that’s very common in the industry or very common with your prospect, I mean, that’s a great way to say, you get me, right? Yeah.

Emily McGregor (04:47.618)

Yeah. Right.

Emily McGregor (05:01.164)

You get me? Yeah, it’s the ultimate shortcut, I think. One thing that I, half jokingly, but I do honestly think this would be a good idea is to play Cards Against Humanity, but like with your imaginary client that you’re selling to. And like, I don’t know if you know that game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you play that, if you could guess what they would pick as the funniest thing. Like think that’d be a good way to try and like really.

John Jantsch (05:17.005)

I do, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (05:23.142)

Yeah. Yeah.

Emily McGregor (05:27.148)

get in their heads in like a fun light comedic way. Just, you know, maybe ask HR first, but.

John Jantsch (05:31.548)

There is a game that game that my daughter’s brought for Christmas this year. And I think it was called something like most likely to. And so the idea was most likely to be a serial killer, you know, whatever. mean, that and you played with a group and you kind of the same thing. You’re like, yeah, this is totally you. And it it it did does do a lot of, you know.

Emily McGregor (05:41.777)

yeah.

Emily McGregor (05:45.802)

Mmm. Yeah.

Emily McGregor (05:53.293)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:59.014)

Picking on the sun and laws was the easy part, of course, you but it does do a lot of, think, connecting. Do you have an example, I hate to put you on the spot, maybe you don’t want to name names, of some, like you’ve had low or no budget and you needed to create an ad and it needed to like, you know, compete against people that had lots of budget.

Emily McGregor (06:00.675)

Right, yeah.

Mm.

Emily McGregor (06:14.958)

Yeah.

Emily McGregor (06:22.816)

Yeah, I mean, so the thing that I start with that is, besides the concept, like the concept matters so much more than like your lighting package or…

necessarily location and things like that eat up a production budget very quickly, you know, coming up with a concept that does relate to the audience. And in coming up with that concept, if you have no budget, lean into that is the first thing I say, like don’t fight your budget. Don’t try and like, let’s do something. I really have this like billion idea and it involves a bear. Like, well don’t.

John Jantsch (06:37.936)

Right.

John Jantsch (06:50.619)

Yeah.

Emily McGregor (06:57.592)

Don’t do that idea. Unless it might be funny with like a teddy bear or something. If you can like lean again, like lean into that being the joke, then that could work. But don’t try and like fight your budget in terms of the concepts. Like think of things that you have access to for free. You know, does your friend own a boat? Awesome, go film on that boat. It’ll add a ton of production value instantly and think of a funny concept that can work in that context, yeah.

John Jantsch (07:01.405)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:21.68)

Do you have a specific example of one that you’ve done? Like somebody came to you and what you and, know, with little idea of what they wanted, little budget and what you came up with, you know, provided results that you think, hey, that was, that punched way above its weight.

Emily McGregor (07:37.07)

Yeah, we recently did one for a company. I won’t name the company. don’t know if I have their permission or not, it was a software company, basically. And they came to us like, hey, we have like $5,000 to make a few commercials. And I’m like, awesome, you’re not getting any lighting. You’re getting my friends who are competing actors and like will come up with a concept.

And it’s great, we were in California, so we filmed on the beach, we faked a campfire camping scene in my backyard with a flickering light bulb that I was controlling with my iPhone. And the ads did exceedingly well. They doubled their sales this year. And I can’t take full credit for that, but I partially credit for running those video ads. And the responses that we got were…

were amazing in terms of in the comments and everything. And nobody was like, oh, this was made for $5. People just thought that they were an enjoyable, fun concept.

John Jantsch (08:34.128)

Yeah, it’s funny, but I’m sure you wish you had $50,000. But do you think sometimes the constraint is actually a benefit?

Emily McGregor (08:46.168)

totally. Yeah, I mean, it depends. Yeah, I mean, you always, never have enough money to get, you never have enough money or time. Like that’s true in construction, it’s true in film production. But yeah, like I think a lot of creativity can come with like, okay, here’s your very limited sandbox. Like what can you create in that? And I sort of like that process and like that exercise. I think it can push you to like,

John Jantsch (08:52.582)

Right.

Emily McGregor (09:13.268)

milk the resources you have and that can foster more creativity and fun actually.

John Jantsch (09:19.004)

It’s just one more key grip can eat up a lot of budget, So do people come to you for one-off projects quite often or how often do you actually help them develop a brand voice that might involve humor because it’s appropriate?

Emily McGregor (09:22.786)

Totally, yeah.

Emily McGregor (09:38.198)

Yeah, we have a mix of both. In the copywriting side of my business, we tend to have lifelong kind of clients. We make friends with all our clients and they come back repeatedly. And we have from the ground up created voices, especially for a lot of our clients there. They tend to be coaches and consultants and solo peoniers where capturing the voice and the energy of that person is so important.

And so many of our clients, are innately funny, vivacious, fun, playful people, and their previous marketing has been bland and boring and just not sparkly like their personalities. And so a lot of our work is really trying to capture and highlight what is there and what makes them exciting and fun and amazing to work with and putting that with a marketing messaging and strategy behind it. Yeah, and a lot of that just comes from

Honestly, just talking to them, just getting a sense of their personality and turning that into words that I can sell.

John Jantsch (10:38.364)

So a lot of industries, I think, makes total sense for comedy to be a part of it. People expect that, for example. But there some industries not so much. Federal homes, accountants. However, could an industry like that use comedy as a real differentiator because it’s not expected?

Emily McGregor (10:45.646)

Sure, yeah, right. Right.

Emily McGregor (11:02.368)

Yeah, I mean, of course, I look at, look at insurance companies. not, not a fun topic. Yeah. Right. But like they all do. Yeah. Yeah. And they all do comedic ads, right? Yeah. so, and we, we’ve done, we did a set of, comedy commercials for a, coach for women lawyers should sound super dry, but we had a great time coming up with really relatable fun.

John Jantsch (11:06.436)

Well, that’s all they do. You don’t even know what they sell, but boy, that shot of Patrick Mahomes was funny.

John Jantsch (11:29.178)

Yeah, right.

Emily McGregor (11:32.654)

ads that related to their issues and made them playful and fun. Where in her industry, like most of the things targeted into them is like hot supermodels in front of an airplane selling lawyer coaching.

John Jantsch (11:42.97)

Right. Yeah. Right. So, you know, we’ve all seen skits where people are trying to do, here’s the writer room, right? They sit around the table and throw out jokes. No, that’s terrible. No. Okay. That’s a good one. I mean, is your process anything like that?

Emily McGregor (12:02.19)

I mean, yeah, it’s pretty similar. Honestly, to get to a joke, you have to throw out 100 bad or mediocre ones. There’s no real good shortcut. mean, sometimes you land on something pretty quickly, but there’s no real shortcut to comedy. think there is a misconception. You see an hour-long stand-up routine, and you just think they make it sound like they’re just coming up with it off the cuff, and you…

John Jantsch (12:08.781)

Yeah.

Emily McGregor (12:27.574)

Forget that they’ve done that literally hundreds, maybe thousands of times before that hour long special, really perfecting and crafting the joke. Yeah, exactly.

John Jantsch (12:34.362)

Well, in every little bit, you know, came from somewhere else, right? I mean, it was eventually stitched together after, you know, bunches of it bombed, right?

Emily McGregor (12:42.188)

Right, yeah, exactly. There’s a lot of like silent comedy nights to make that really good special, yeah.

John Jantsch (12:49.372)

So, and you won’t have an answer for this, this is just an observation I’ve had. I do a lot of public speaking and I’m always perplexed by the idea that some joke that I’ve used over and over again kills it all the time. And then one audience just doesn’t get it. And I’m like, I did that in exactly the same way, same words, same body language. so is that just…

Emily McGregor (12:51.31)

Sure.

Emily McGregor (13:03.086)

Mm.

Why this time? Yeah. Great.

John Jantsch (13:15.388)

Again, don’t expect you to really have an answer to that, but why does that happen?

Emily McGregor (13:16.878)

Right? Yeah, I don’t know. mean, that’s the one unpredictable thing with with comedy is like context matters so much, you know? But yeah, so who knows what was going on before your speech? They have zero control over. Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:30.99)

Yeah, was a different audience. So do you feel, I was joking before we even got started and I said, I expect you to be funny for the show today. Do you feel some extra pressure? Because I mean, that is like, if I’m hiring somebody to create comedic content, they’re gonna make me laugh, right? I mean, do you feel some pressure from that?

Emily McGregor (13:43.436)

Yeah.

Emily McGregor (13:58.006)

I mean, I think, you know, I know I’m always confident in our ability to make it come out in the work and I don’t think anyone’s hiring me to be a stand-up comedian. yeah, I don’t, don’t, it doesn’t, that doesn’t bother me too much.

John Jantsch (14:07.76)

Okay.

John Jantsch (14:12.154)

Yeah. Have you had, we’ve talked about your win. have you had some things where, where stuff just seemed like it was going to be awesome and it bombed?

Emily McGregor (14:17.528)

Yeah.

Emily McGregor (14:24.074)

I mean, we’ve had that on set where like a joke or like an idea that I had is like, it’s not really like landing. You have to rewrite it in the moment because it sounded funnier on paper or the way, or even seeing new opportunities, like the way the actor was presenting it. Like, that’s totally different than what I saw. And that’s funnier, but it means we need to change X, Y, and Z to make it work. so yeah, totally.

John Jantsch (14:26.789)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (14:32.943)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:46.342)

Yeah.

Emily McGregor (14:49.762)

Definitely happens on set. The old adage is true. Anything in film gets written three times. It’s written in the script, it’s written on set, and that’s rewritten in the editing bay as well. So that’s for sure. Yeah, they’ll do stuff. Sometimes we’ve had the problem where an actor came on set and they just really weren’t giving what I wanted. And then you do have to kind of make the performance happen in the editing room, which is…

John Jantsch (15:00.092)

And I imagine some actors take liberty with the script too, right?

Emily McGregor (15:19.244)

Not ideal, but it does happen.

John Jantsch (15:21.35)

Then you have Robin Williams where you’re like, I have no idea what he’s going to say, but it’s going to be funny, So how much time, and I’m sure every project is different, every budget is different, but it’s probably seems to me like it’d be very hard for you to do your job well or any marketer to do their job well without understanding the ideal client. So how much, how much effort do you have to put on the front end, on the front end? Because my experience is most clients.

Emily McGregor (15:24.59)

Right, exactly. Dream for those, yeah!

Emily McGregor (15:35.458)

Yeah, sure.

John Jantsch (15:51.536)

can’t tell you who makes an ideal client and why.

Emily McGregor (15:55.15)

Right, right, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that’s like, I would say most of the work kind of comes from doing that understanding and really diving deep into that understanding and asking a lot of those questions and finding, because like the comedy really comes from the specifics of that, like the specifics of what that person is going through. So we do.

John Jantsch (15:58.14)

Okay.

John Jantsch (16:19.132)

Yeah.

Emily McGregor (16:21.696)

a lot of work to make sure that the comedy is also coming from an authentic place, because people can sniff it out really quickly. I gained that skill from back in the day. My original work, working in comedy, creating like geek comedy, like comedy for like the nerd world, which was like a thing in like the early 2010s. Which is like, as much as my appearance tells you otherwise, I’m not actually into a lot of those things, but they will sniff you out.

John Jantsch (16:38.808)

Yeah. Sure, sure.

Emily McGregor (16:50.06)

very quickly if things are not authentic. So learning how to make jokes that were authentic, that reached that audience, and that were new and fresh, that was a skill I actually learned in that world, yeah.

John Jantsch (16:50.128)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (16:56.433)

Yeah.

what?

John Jantsch (17:02.876)

So we have had video content probably for 20 years, you know, at the very beginning part. I mean, obviously we’ve had video for much longer, but in terms of people using it in marketing on their websites and things. How would you say it’s evolved? it having like, is it become more important? Is it, people, it’s just gotten easier to do, so more people are doing it. Where, how would you kind of talk about the state of video and its place in the marketing channels, if you will?

Emily McGregor (17:31.894)

Yeah, I mean, think, you know, kind of two minds of it. In some ways, it hasn’t changed in the fact that…

it’s so powerful and so important and it has just become more important. Reels are so much more important on Instagram than a static post. You’re not gonna get very far with just static posts. You need to be on there. People more and more wanna buy from individuals, from people with a story, from people with a perspective rather than just a cool, shiny thing. Competition is more competitive and the more…

John Jantsch (17:41.305)

Right.

Emily McGregor (18:05.176)

personality and memorability that you can bring to it. And I think video is a great way of doing that. Especially if it’s like, if it is selling a person or coaching or something like that, that person does just need to be visible on video. There’s kind of no way around it anymore, I would say. Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:23.066)

Yeah, you know, I think when it first started, was such a trust builder, right? It’s like I can connect with Emily and she seems like a nice person, you know, in video, right? I’m finding more and more people using it much farther down the buyer journey. You know, then it’s, I don’t need to go to the website now. I mean, I might buy something right off of a YouTube called Action. And I think that’s probably one of the more significant changes that we’re experiencing in marketing right now.

Emily McGregor (18:29.922)

Yeah.

Emily McGregor (18:39.502)

Yeah.

Emily McGregor (18:46.83)

Yeah, no, that’s a good point. Definitely. Yeah, we found clients using video instead of just in cold all the way through or even sending individual personalized videos to client perspective clients, things like that using Voxer and then, or not Voxer, Loom and those kind of tools to connect.

John Jantsch (18:59.982)

Right, right.

John Jantsch (19:03.994)

Yeah,

So I’m curious of your thoughts on this. You know, there’s still, I don’t know why YouTube seems to bring out the trolls more than pretty much anybody else and any other platform and commenting. I mean, is that equivalent to in your world? Is that like the head clerk in the audience?

Emily McGregor (19:14.83)

Yeah.

Emily McGregor (19:22.638)

Yeah, I guess it’s pretty similar.

John Jantsch (19:25.116)

So Emily, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the duct tape marketing podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you and find out more about your funny penguin cat videos?

Emily McGregor (19:36.91)

Yeah, check us out on penguincatcreative.com or scrappyads.io and you can hit us up on Instagram or LinkedIn as well.

John Jantsch (19:48.092)

Again, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Emily McGregor (19:53.73)

That sounds great. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Have a good time.

Cold Outreach Strategies That Actually Work in 2025

Cold Outreach Strategies That Actually Work in 2025 written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Matthew McQueen

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Matthew McQueen, co-founder of Coldlytics, a company that specializes in research-based lead generation for cold outreach. Matthew has helped digital agencies and B2B businesses refine their cold email strategy, improve outbound sales, and increase client acquisition with targeted, high-quality prospecting lists.

During our conversation, Matthew shared actionable insights on how businesses can improve cold outreach by focusing on personalized, value-driven engagement rather than mass-email tactics. He explained why many cold email campaigns fail, how businesses can leverage AI in sales for better email personalization, and why smaller, highly targeted prospect lists lead to higher response rates.

Matthew’s approach to digital prospecting and B2B marketing is a game-changer for businesses looking to improve cold outreach results. By prioritizing high-quality data, personalization, and multi-channel engagement, companies can increase business growth and close more deals efficiently.

Key Takeaways:

Quality Over Quantity in Lead Generation – Instead of blasting thousands of emails, focus on a targeted lead generation strategy with high-intent prospects who are more likely to engage.
Personalization is Key – Generic cold emails don’t work. Use email personalization techniques such as referencing website data, industry involvement, or prior marketing activity to connect with potential clients.
AI and Automation Can Help—but Only If Used Right – Sales automation tools and AI in sales can improve efficiency, but they should enhance personalization, not replace human connection.
Multi-Touchpoint Outreach Works Best – Combining email marketing, direct marketing, LinkedIn engagement, and even phone calls creates an omnichannel approach that builds trust faster.
Success in Outbound Marketing Takes Testing – The best outbound marketing strategies involve constant testing and iteration—optimize email prospecting sequences and messaging for better conversion rates.
Smaller, More Qualified Lists Convert Better – Instead of sending mass emails to a broad audience, create a refined list of ideal prospects based on industry, company size, and digital marketing activity.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introduction to Matthew McQuinn
[00:54] Outreach with Intention and Value
[02:57] Targeting Your Cold Outreach
[07:18] How is AI Impacting Lead Generation?
[10:51] What Works to Generate Leads
[14:14] Brand, Privacy, and Effective Outreach
[16:44] Qualifying Leads
[21:10] The Most Effective Form of Outreach

More About Matt McQueen:

Check out Matt McQueen’s Website
Connect with Matt McQueen on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Weekend Favs February 1st

Weekend Favs February 1st written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.

Mindy – An AI-powered personal assistant that integrates with email to handle scheduling, research, and workflow management.
Artisan – An AI-driven outbound sales platform with an AI BDR (Ava) that automates lead generation and personalized outreach.
11X – AI-powered digital workers like Alice (AI SDR) and Mike (AI Phone Agent) that automate sales, RevOps, and customer engagement.

These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Connect with me on Linkedin!

If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.

The Franchise Playbook: Insider Tips for First-Time Buyers

The Franchise Playbook: Insider Tips for First-Time Buyers written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Alex Smereczniak

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Alex Smereczniak, serial entrepreneur and CEO of Franzy, a platform transforming franchise discovery and acquisition. Alex has a deep understanding of franchise business strategy, from brand messaging to customer insights, and he shares insider tips on how first-time buyers can successfully navigate the franchise landscape.

During our conversation, Alex revealed the raw truths about franchise ownership, the emotional triggers that drive investment decisions, and how effective marketing research can help buyers identify the right opportunities. He also shed light on the importance of business strategy, customer feedback, and executive insights in building a profitable, scalable franchise.

Alex’s expertise in franchise strategy and customer feedback makes this episode a must-listen for anyone considering franchise ownership. Whether you’re looking for marketing solutions or insights into brand strategy, this conversation provides invaluable guidance on making the right investment.

Key Takeaways:

Franchising Is More Than Fast Food: Many people associate franchises with McDonald’s, but the industry extends to home services, fitness, B2B marketing solutions, and beyond.
Data-Driven Decision Making: Leveraging customer insights and executive feedback can significantly improve success rates in franchising.
The Financial Reality: While franchising offers a lower-risk business model, profitability depends on location, operations, and marketing innovation.
Red Flags to Avoid: Be cautious of misleading brand messaging, exaggerated earnings claims, and lack of transparency in marketing research.
The Role of Emotional Triggers in Buying a Franchise: Personal goals, lifestyle aspirations, and long-term business strategy should align with the franchise choice.

Chapters:

[01:03] Franchising History
[02:06] Franchise vs. Independent Business
[03:28] Is Franchising Secure?
[05:31] Alex’s Franchise Journey & Franzy
[07:14] Who Invests in Franchises?
[08:34] Franchising is Easier Than You Think
[09:29] Keys to a Profitable Franchise
[14:11] How Franzy Supports Franchising
[17:57] Franchise Red Flags
[19:15] Getting Started with Franzy

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.941)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Alex Smereczniak. Nailed that, I? He’s a serial entrepreneur and the co-founder and CEO of Fransi, a platform revolutionizing franchise discovery and acquisition. They empower aspiring entrepreneurs with transparency, support, and the tools to find the right franchise opportunity. He’s also the co-founder and former CEO of

Alex Smereczniak (00:10.844)

yeah.

John Jantsch (00:29.901)

to you laundry and Laundro lab where he helped build and scale a successful venture backed laundry delivery service and it’s franchise arm as well. So he continues to serve on both boards of those companies. So Alex, welcome to the duct tape marketing podcast.

Alex Smereczniak (00:45.646)

Thanks, John. I’m excited to be on with you today and look forward to talking to all things franchising and how people can get into the wonderful, wacky world of it.

John Jantsch (00:55.607)

Yeah, you know, it’s interesting franchises. I think a lot of people think McDonald’s White Castle’s, you know, some of the really early like food franchises. But in looking at the model, you know, it’s probably been around since the Middle Ages. You know, when, when some king would say, okay, you over there, you get to collect taxes in this region and you submit some of it back to me and you, you know, you get an exclusive on that region. You know, again, I

half kidding, half not kidding, but I mean, it’s really a model that’s been around for the ages, hasn’t it?

Alex Smereczniak (01:29.12)

It has been around forever and it’s more pervasive and I think our everyday lives and most people realize to your point, think McDonald’s, Subway, you don’t think about the moving company that helped you move is probably a franchise or the painting company. It is 8 % of our country’s GDP is produced from the franchise industry and it spans food, hotels, home services, fitness.

John Jantsch (01:35.351)

Yeah. Yeah.

Right, right, Yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (01:54.618)

Coffee, mean you entertainment you name it. There’s probably a franchise model around it

John Jantsch (01:59.917)

Well, yeah, I was going to say the models become so successful that there’s probably not a service where somebody hasn’t at least tried, you know, to get it going. Right. I mean, because I think a lot of people, you know, see the successful model. so, so let’s go there for a minute. You know, is there an inherent advantage, theoretically to a franchise as opposed to somebody just kind of figuring it out on their own.

Alex Smereczniak (02:24.058)

Yeah, so I actually, you know, I’ve done a lot of research on franchising as a whole and two metrics that have jumped out to me before is that, you know, the two year success rate of a franchise business is about 76%. Oh, sorry, sorry. It’s 92 % for the two year success rate for franchising 85 for the five year success rate. That is opposed to 76 % for the two year success rate for just an independent business.

a whopping 50 % success rate after five years. if you look at the two numbers I just shared, 85 % success for franchise businesses after five years, 50 for independent businesses after five years, that’s the answer right there. A lot of people get into franchising because it’s de-risked. It gives people, I don’t want to say a safety net, but you’re working with a community of other people around you that are also building their businesses with you, and then a corporate parent that

John Jantsch (03:06.285)

Yeah, yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (03:19.352)

has proven the model, has marketing resources, has training resources, has tech resources, et cetera, to isolate you to an extent and be valuable.

John Jantsch (03:28.899)

So when the concept or the model itself was really blowing up, probably in the seventies or eighties or so, there were a lot of issues that had the FTC step in. A lot of people were setting up Ponzi schemes. They were taking a hundred thousand dollars from somebody and then the people no support or nothing, what was promised. How would you say the state of sort of regulating that industry has evolved and is it safer?

certainly than it was 50 years ago.

Alex Smereczniak (03:59.802)

There’s two sides to that coin on the regulation around the brand themselves to prevent snake oil salesmen from saying, hey, this is the get rich quick in this whatever concept. The regulation has done a good job there. So every brand has to have what’s called an FDD. It’s called a franchise disclosure document. And it is a 100 to 200 page onerous legal document that covers bankruptcy, litigation, team experience.

John Jantsch (04:10.147)

Right, right.

John Jantsch (04:22.221)

Yes.

Alex Smereczniak (04:27.29)

investment costs, audited financials. mean, it has everything in it and every brand is required to have that. So I, you know, when we got into franchising, was happy to find that the other side of that coin where there still needs to be more regulation is how franchises are sold and bought today. And so a lot of people can go to a McDonald’s and fill out the contact form. They can find something, you know, from a neighbor who might be franchising a concept word of mouth.

A lot of people work through business brokers, franchise brokers, and this part is still very much the Wild West, meaning, if you think about buying a house, your real estate agent had to get licensure, they had to go through training and courses, and they also disclose to you what their commission is going to be. There is zero of that for business brokers, not just in franchising. Any business broker doesn’t need to be licensed. You and I could go be business brokers today.

John Jantsch (04:56.312)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:18.263)

Yeah, yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (05:18.99)

And we also don’t have to disclose what percent fee we’re taking and how we’re making money. So there’s also this kind of misalignment to a degree that’s happening there, but that’s changing. Regulation is coming there as well that I think will protect your average consumer and business buyer here in the near future.

John Jantsch (05:35.799)

What would you say you, you started a couple other businesses you franchised or at least participated in franchising those other, did you learn a lot along the way that you’ve now brought to Frenzy?

Alex Smereczniak (05:48.27)

Yeah, honestly, if I hadn’t had the experience previously building a franchise or essentially being my own franchisee running multiple laundromats, I wouldn’t have even had the idea for Franzi. was getting into the franchise world that made me realize, Hey, there’s a big gap here and there’s not a lot of alignment between the brand, brokers, prospects, et cetera. There’s not a good database or set of tools for people to find the right concept for themselves. so.

Part the reason I transitioned out of my last business was to be able to go start this one. It was just a huge gap. It’s kind of like what Zillow did for the real estate market before you had to go through a real estate agent. wasn’t a way to shop online or look at your dream home or your vacation home. And with Frenzy, we’re trying to do exactly that. Be the Zillow for franchising where you can go on your computer at work or go on your computer late at night and say, I’m in Atlanta. I’ve got a hundred K to invest.

What can I afford? Here’s my operational experience. Here are my goals for my family and myself. What are the top five or 10 brands recommended for me based on this information? And that’s exactly what we’ve built with Franzi is you go in, you enter that information and we recommend brands for you. You can deny them or approve them and go further down the conversation with them. And then we facilitate that introduction along with a number of other tools that first time or any business buyer needs.

entity formation, lending, finding the right CPA, etc. We help with all those pieces as well.

John Jantsch (07:13.72)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:19.271)

Would you say that there is, and maybe you don’t have enough experience to answer this question, but would you say there’s a distinct different profile of a buyer of a franchise as opposed to somebody who’s just going to go out there and start a business?

Alex Smereczniak (07:32.154)

It’s kind of a cop out answer, but it depends. I just talked to a number of entrepreneurship through acquisition folks. It’s a big trend right now where people are either getting a sponsor to back them to go buy an established business where it’s someone retiring that wants to sell. But some of those ETA folks are looking at buying up the family that owns five Jimmy Johns and wants to sell.

John Jantsch (07:41.677)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (07:55.191)

Yeah, sure.

Alex Smereczniak (07:57.018)

So you had an ETA person, they’re looking at both independent businesses and franchises as a potential solution. You also have within franchising the large private equity groups that own 50 Jimmy Johns and 20 McDonald’s and they’re massive. But you also have the vice president of a bank who’s in his forties and hates his job and wants to leave and go be his own boss. And he also becomes a McDonald’s franchisee. so your ideal customer profiles, your ICPs vary pretty widely.

John Jantsch (08:08.098)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:16.504)

Yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (08:26.99)

they fall pretty solidly into three buckets. It’s your private equity groups, it’s your nine to five veteran that wants to get out, or it’s your family that’s built up a nice business and they’re adding their sixth, seventh, eighth location.

John Jantsch (08:32.301)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:43.427)

I guess the part of that question was, know, somebody learns how to be a plumber and they start a plumbing business. lot of franchisees owners, mean, they don’t know a thing about the actual business. Like they’ve never run a restaurant, right? You know, they’ve never run a gym, but they like the idea of not really needing to know that because the system’s figured out. I mean, is that a fair statement?

Alex Smereczniak (09:06.714)

Yeah, I franchising is a lot more accessible. It goes back to the success rates I mentioned earlier. There’s a reason it’s almost double. You know, the success rate is almost double for those getting into franchises versus going at it alone. You have training wheels essentially in franchising, but eventually when you start going from one unit to two to two to five, five to 10 training wheels are off and you’re, booking it downhill. You got some momentum behind you and you know what you’re doing at that point, but

John Jantsch (09:30.413)

Hehehe

Alex Smereczniak (09:33.55)

You had to cut your teeth at some point, just like anything. You got to learn those first year or two and get yourself in the business.

John Jantsch (09:39.693)

So talk a little bit about, and again, maybe you haven’t owned enough franchises to have this opinion, but talk a little bit about the profitability or the ability to really make money in a franchise. One of the knocks you sometimes hear, whether it’s true or not, is that there are people owning a couple of subways and not making as much as they would in a regular job, for example. Is that?

Is that a true statement? You really need to actually be able to scale this thing to a certain point or is that more the nature of picking the right franchise?

Alex Smereczniak (10:16.888)

Yeah, so think it depends on a number of things. Your individual goal, if it’s a retail business, the location you decide on in the market around it, how competitive is it? How much of a need is this? A lot of it depends on the operator. You could have the best business in the world, but if you’re not there at all, you only show up once a month and you’re not checking in on things, it’s going to be run poorly. So like any other business, the franchise still requires thoughtfulness around the location, being a good operator, et cetera.

to be more pointed. There is a franchise for just about every kind of goal and need. There’s one that you can be a basically buy yourself a job, get a bucket and a mop. A lot of people don’t realize UPS is a franchise where you franchise the route, but you are the delivery driver. And some people like that because they’re buying themselves a job, but they also have the freedom and the flexibility of being an owner, even though they might only be profited.

John Jantsch (10:57.95)

yeah. Yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (11:12.356)

profiting 40 to 100K a year. That’s fine. They just like that they report to themselves essentially.

John Jantsch (11:17.823)

Yeah, plus they don’t have to depend on dozens of teenagers actually running the store,

Alex Smereczniak (11:22.618)

So you’ve got, you’ve got things from the delivery driver to, you know, a commercial cleaning business all the way up to you’re building a $4 million sky zone, you know, in indoor trampoline park and the EBITDA, the profit is substantially higher, you know, half a million plus. There is such, that’s what’s so great about franchising is it’s so accessible and there’s something at each end of the spectrum and each range, each risk tolerance, each goal.

John Jantsch (11:36.673)

Right.

John Jantsch (11:51.915)

Are there, are there some, hot kind of categories right now?

Alex Smereczniak (11:57.946)

Yeah. So home services is really big right now because it’s, really accessible. You don’t need to build this multimillion dollar location. You also don’t have to be as right about the location because you have this huge territory. And so if you’re doing gutter cleaning or window cleaning, or, um, there was an interesting one I saw the other day, you know, it’s, it’s a Christmas decorations or the franchise for, and so it’s, you have some of these things that are more accessible, less upfront costs and investment.

John Jantsch (12:20.671)

Okay, yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (12:27.242)

but still can generate pretty substantial revenues and profit to the point where it could replace a lot of people’s annual salaries. And now again, it’s your thing, it’s your business, you have more flexibility and freedom and more fulfilling.

John Jantsch (12:34.232)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:41.175)

Yeah, it’s interesting too, in home services, you know, used to be you’d call a remodeler or handyman and they’d come out and look at what you needed. But now it’s like, my garage door, I need that fixed. You know, here’s somebody that puts in 75 garage doors, you know, every week, you know, I’m going to call them. And so it’s, you see the, especially the home services getting really, really nichey, don’t you?

Alex Smereczniak (13:01.402)

Yeah, that’s one of my favorite ones. You actually just mentioned is there’s a concept called the garage Kings. It’s a franchise and Damon, Damon John, the guy from shark tank actually use them unintentionally and did his own Instagram reel of it because he just was so blown away by the quality of the service. But to your point, it’s cause garage Kings only does garage. They epoxy, epoxy the floors. put up shelving and storage.

John Jantsch (13:10.115)

Sure.

Alex Smereczniak (13:24.856)

And it’s a phenomenal business. You don’t need a ton of equipment and the average territory does over a million dollars a year in revenue and it’s a franchise.

John Jantsch (13:31.543)

Yeah. So talk a little bit about kind of your approach and what, you know, if somebody’s out there looking, thinking I want to do this, you know, what role do you fill for that person that’s kind of, cause just as we’ve talked about, I mean, it’s, know, the, if you just went out there and typed in franchise, you know, it’s going to be like, okay, let’s start with 6 billion, you know, ideas. So, so kind of where do you, where do you fit in the search?

Alex Smereczniak (13:56.282)

Yeah.

Yep. we’re, we’re, uh, you know, the way that we describe ourselves as reeducation. So if you’re a first timer franchising one-on-one, what is an FDD? What is a franchise disclosure document? What are the terms I should be familiar with? And then what should I be thinking about as far as affordability, time commitment, what’s available? You know, those key buckets. We also are a resource for people that are buying their 10th business or that private equity group that I mentioned that might be looking for the right concept to go buy 20 of.

And so we do, we have tools for kind of each one of those buckets, but let’s follow that person through the journey of, don’t know what I’m doing, know, what the hell I’m doing. So we help with the education and getting people comfortable. Once you come to Franzy, we also start to help you get pre-qualified with lenders that we’ve partnered with. So right away, you know, just like buying a house or buying a car, lot of these, a lot of these sites tell you that now. And so it helps refine your search immediately. There’s 4,000 brands in the United States. Well, once you fill out your pre-qual,

John Jantsch (14:47.585)

Yeah, here’s what I can afford. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (14:57.486)

Well, now here’s a thousand that you can financially afford. All right. What areas are you looking in? All right. Here’s 300 that are available. You see where this is going to goes from 4,000 to a thousand to 300. And then we start to ask a lot of questions about what’s your, what are your family’s goals? What’s your risk tolerance? What’s your operational experience? And then what are your hobbies and interests so that we actually, you know, we find a business that resonates with you and that you like. By the time we do all of that and we’re using AI to do this, there’s also coaching with franchise experts on our team that you can speak with.

By the time you have those conversations and you fill out these surveys, we’ve got it down to a pretty high degree of confidence that here’s this five brand recommendation for you. One of these five brands is going to be a perfect fit. And if it’s not, we’ve got another couple hundred that we’ve narrowed it down to that we can continue to feed and teach our model to make sure that this is the absolute best business for John from those four factors I mentioned. It satisfies his risk tolerance. We know he can afford it. We know it’s available in his area.

and it fits his goals and his interests.

John Jantsch (15:58.819)

I’m curious, what’s the, and it probably varies a little bit, but what’s the process from, okay, you’ve given me those five brands to like somebody actually starting a business once they decide. mean, is that a year long process?

Alex Smereczniak (16:12.418)

It depends on the type of business. So with Franzy as an example, let’s say we get to the five and you’re excited about three of them. So we’ll introduce you to those three. have relationships with all these brands. you start to go through their process and build a rapport with them. They’re interviewing you to make sure you’d be a good franchisee as part of their system and vice versa. You’re interviewing them to make sure that this is a 10 year commitment you want to make and an investment of time and money that you want to make. And so let’s say.

You narrow it down to one, you love it, you’re married to this idea, you want to become a franchisee and they feel the same way. You sign a franchise agreement. Well, sorry, let me back up a second. As soon as you start matching with a brand and you have that first conversation, the average sales cycle is 90 to 120 days. There’s a lot of calls back and forth. You eventually fly to the headquarters to see a day in the life and meet the team. That’s 60 to 90 days.

John Jantsch (16:55.971)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (17:03.63)

From there, if it’s a retail business, can definitely expect 12-ish months because you have to find a site, do build out. There’s a lot more to a retail business. If it’s a home services business, which is why they’re so hot right now, is you can get a truck and do some training and you’re locked and loaded in two months, baby. Let’s go.

John Jantsch (17:09.133)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (17:15.329)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, get a get a truck and get it wrapped. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. As and I’m sure you’ve seen all these and so you advise some people, but I’m guessing you probably only work with reputable folks. But are there some red flags that somebody should that you would tell people, hey, if they’re telling you this?

Alex Smereczniak (17:39.514)

Yeah, anyone that’s promising you’re going to get rich. Be very wary of that because again, at end of the day, you’re running a business. It’s still your business and no one can guarantee that you’re going to be successful. Even yourself. I mean, you have to get the right side. You got to be a good operator. All the things we mentioned. So look for people promising things. You got to be careful of that. Look for stores closing. And so we have tons of data over the last five, five years on Franzy. So if you see a trend of, hey, they opened 300 stores and then 50 shut down and they only opened a net new, you know, 10 over that.

John Jantsch (17:42.497)

Yeah, right. Right.

John Jantsch (17:47.555)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:00.748)

right, yeah yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (18:09.53)

What’s going on here? You know, that’s the question you should be asking. Any litigation, the obvious one is litigation or bankruptcy. And then checking the item 19 is critical. That’s where the audited financials are in the FDD. If you see, you know, if a business is doing well, they’re going to want to brag about it, right? They’re going to want to show the financials and look at our stores, make a ton of money. And so could you, if they’re hiding it or they’re doing weird adjustments and, adjusted

John Jantsch (18:14.902)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:24.493)

Huh.

John Jantsch (18:33.677)

Yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (18:38.774)

EBITDA and adjusted revenue and goofy things like that. That’s a flag to at least press on and double click on.

John Jantsch (18:39.98)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:47.139)

So how does the process with you? mean, is it fairly much an online tool? I know you have a couple like the Fit Score and the Connect Tool. Is that all something you just go to your website, create an account, and kind of start doing on their own?

Alex Smereczniak (19:03.822)

Yeah, so the whole goal of Franzy is going to make this really accessible to anyone. And so you create an account, free to do, it’s free for anyone using our site all the way through. We make money if an individual buys a franchise, then the franchisor pays us kind of like a real estate agent. But we’ll help you through finding the right fit, which is part of AI powered, part of the product we’ve built. We help you with pre-qualification.

John Jantsch (19:23.426)

Yeah, yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (19:32.014)

We help you with all the data and the research that you need to make a confident decision. And then we also do have expert coaches on our team, people that have owned franchise businesses or that were franchisors that will talk you through any hesitations, questions, concerns that you have to get you familiar with everything you need to be successful. The really cool part about what we do is once we introduce you to brands that we’ve vetted,

John Jantsch (19:48.824)

Nice.

Alex Smereczniak (19:58.21)

We become a virtual coach in your corner. So part of the sales process is you have this overview call, a unit economics call, stuff that’s kind of intimidating if it’s your first time. And even if it’s not, it’s a lot of work and you want a sounding board. So we’ve built all these resources to say, Hey, John, you have an overview call coming up. Here’s what to expect and some pre-read materials to prepare yourself. And also here’s some curated questions we recommend you ask on that call so that you’re making sure you’re addressing your risk, your hesitations and other things.

that you expressed to us during this whole onboarding process. And then you can talk to us as a person as well that whole time whenever you want. A long answer, but soup to nuts, research, coaching, your qualification and matching you with the right fit brand.

John Jantsch (20:36.14)

Awesome.

John Jantsch (20:44.043)

Yeah. Well, and I think one of the real advantages, while obviously you want somebody to move forward because that’s how you get paid, you don’t really care which one they move forward with. So you’re not really pushing one horse or another, you?

Alex Smereczniak (20:56.122)

I’m glad you brought that up because it’s one of the reasons we started this is a lot of folks that have gone through, you brokers, other channels don’t realize they’re being presented only brands that have agreed to pay to play in the background. We have this inventory of thousands. We’re, your point, we’re indifferent. Our success fee is a flat dollar amount versus a percent of the commission. As you can imagine, if one brand has a, you an $80,000 franchise, and one has 40,000 and I’m paid a percentage of that.

John Jantsch (21:23.181)

Right, yeah. Sure. Yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (21:23.706)

People are inherently going to try to push you to the 80, even though it might not be in your best interest. So we cut that out of the model entirely and said, we don’t care if it’s 80 or 40, we get paid X. So we really want to find the right fit for John because ultimately that’s going to cause him to buy the second one, the third one, increase his chance of success, tell his friends to check out Franzy, et cetera. It’s in everyone’s best interest if we all get a line.

John Jantsch (21:44.907)

Awesome. there somewhere, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there somewhere you’d send people to connect with you and learn more? know we’ve talked about Franzy, FRNZY.com. Anywhere else you want to send people?

Alex Smereczniak (22:01.166)

No, think Franzy is the best place to get started. then if you can, if my complicated last name shows up, connect with me on LinkedIn. I’m happy to answer anyone’s franchise related questions or help them in any way that I can as they think about becoming an entrepreneur, buying a business, or just curious about franchise things in general.

John Jantsch (22:17.219)

And did I get close on your last name?

Alex Smereczniak (22:20.314)

So you were close on like the actual authentic pronunciation. The Americanized is Smrznak. The Polish version is Smiercznek, which is closer to what you said.

John Jantsch (22:26.467)

Yeah. Yeah. I was trying to get that neck in there, know, part, but I have an Austrian name that has a lot of consonants at the end of it. So I’m very sensitive to trying to get people’s names right. Awesome. Awesome. Well, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Alex Smereczniak (22:45.402)

Well, I appreciate it. You were close.

Alex Smereczniak (22:54.754)

Yep, thanks again, John.

How to Adapt, Thrive, and Stay Human in an AI-Driven World

How to Adapt, Thrive, and Stay Human in an AI-Driven World written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, we dive into the evolving world of marketing in 2025, where artificial intelligence (AI) is reshaping how businesses operate. The discussion highlights the importance of balancing cutting-edge AI tools with timeless human elements like emotional intelligence (EI) and authentic connection. As marketing trends accelerate and marketing tools multiply, the challenge lies in leveraging these advancements strategically while staying true to your brand voice and fostering personalization.

AI in marketing has the power to disrupt industries, but as discussed, it’s critical to focus on strategic marketing and storytelling to maintain authenticity. The conversation also explores hyper-personalization, marketing automation, and how businesses can navigate the fast-paced evolution of marketing tools while creating meaningful relationships with their customers.

By blending cutting-edge AI with timeless human values, businesses can adapt, thrive, and stay human in an AI-driven world. As marketing evolves, success will depend on leveraging personalization, EI, and a clear brand voice to cut through the noise.

Key Takeaways:

Strategy Before Technology
Without a solid marketing strategy, shiny new AI tools can lead to faster failure. Focus on aligning AI applications with your business goals to maximize impact.
The Role of Emotional Intelligence (EI)
As AI democratizes intelligence, EI becomes a key differentiator. Skills like empathy, communication, and contextual understanding are more important than ever in strategic marketing.
The Power of Storytelling in Marketing
Storytelling remains a vital way to humanize your brand and connect with audiences. AI can’t replicate personal experiences, making your authentic stories a unique advantage.
Brand Voice and Personalization
Define and maintain your brand voice to stand out in an AI-saturated landscape. Use AI-driven hyper-personalization to deliver tailored messages that resonate with your audience.
Navigating AI Disruption
AI is transforming marketing trends and tools across content creation, design, and personalized sales. However, businesses that prioritize the human element in marketing will create stronger, more authentic connections.

Chapters:

[01:15] AI vs Previous Tech Excitement
[03:25] Approaching AI Strategically
[05:02] Adopting the Right Mindset Around AI
[10:47] The Human Element Stands Out
[13:04] Importance of Storytelling for Your Brand
[13:49] AI’s Impact on Marketing
[16:08] The Future of Personalization
[18:55] Marketing Focus for 2025

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.686)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Jantsch and I think I’m kind of the guest today because my host today is Sarah Ney, CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and she’s gonna, we’re just gonna have a conversation about some of the things going on in the world of marketing. I’ve said before, I think 2025 is going to be a year to remember in terms of change. I’ll say that next year too, I bet.

But I think the pace of change that I think we’re seeing right now, just in the first couple of weeks of January, it’s kind of flooring me. And I think it’s going to be tough to keep up. So strap in, hang on, and here we go, sir.

Sara Nay (00:40.285)

And we were just having a discussion with some of our team about how we’re always, you know, looked at it, staying in top of marketing trends. And that’s been the position of duct tape marketing for a while. And right now we feel like we’re sprinting more than we have before with all the advancements. And that’s a lot of what we’re going to talk about today. So thanks for letting me steal the host seat. I want to start with a question. Sure.

John Jantsch (00:46.574)

You

John Jantsch (00:58.368)

Yeah. Well, I can, throw in a joke, a lame joke. So R and D now stands for run and dash.

Sara Nay (01:03.805)

I it. Well, I’m going to start with a question. You’ve been in the game, the marketing game for quite some time now. So you were involved when websites, everyone started building websites and getting online. And also when social media became a thing and everyone was talking about how that’s going to change the whole entire industry. And so right now, obviously we’re going through a lot of conversation and discussion and excitement around AI and everything that’s evolving there. So I’m curious, how does right now feel the same?

than some of those different excitement phases that have happened or developments that have happened over the years. And also on the other end, how does it feel a bit different this time or does it feel different?

John Jantsch (01:41.964)

Yeah. So, I mean, in some ways it feels if there’s a same, it’s fundamentally what we’re here to do as marketers. I don’t think it’ll ever change. And so a lot of the changes that came along were like, wait, we have a new way to interact with customers. We have a new platform to be found. Customers, you know, have a different way to buy from us. So those were, those were kind of in a lot of ways, incremental changes, significant ones for a lot of folks.

In terms of the change with what AI is bringing, I think it’s much more foundational. It certainly feels very different. And I think partly because it impacts so many areas of a business. A lot of the website was kind of a marketing thing, whereas AI is impacting finance, it’s impacting customer service, it’s impacting certainly all the marketing functions. And ultimately it’s impacting consumers and what they’re able to do greatly.

I just feel like this is a, you know, I’ve heard some people say this, it might be kind of cliche, but you know, this is almost like, this is almost like, you know, the industrial revolution, like all these machines, you know, came along that automated, you know, manual labor that, you know, that, that really displaced a lot of jobs and started creating the, you know, the knowledge economy. And I think this is a bit more like that. This is going to fundamentally shift how we work.

Sara Nay (03:04.059)

Yeah, absolutely. And the school system, a lot of it was built from that era as well. And so I’ve heard a lot of conversation about, you know, potentially AI adjusting how we actually teach our children in school as well. Who needs it? It’s done for you. A lot of what you’ve spoken about over the years is strategy before tactics. And now a lot of people are talking about strategy before technology. And so I’m just curious your take on there’s, there’s a lot of shiny objects in AI.

John Jantsch (03:08.546)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:14.722)

Yeah, no more math, right? Who needs math? Who needs learned math, right?

John Jantsch (03:24.557)

Yes.

John Jantsch (03:31.278)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (03:31.867)

There’s a lot of, every time I check my email, there’s 10 different tools that are being recommended for me that relate to AI. And so I think a lot of people are getting sucked into just doing things and figuring out how it works, but not necessarily taking a step back and saying, how could this apply to my business? How could I approach this strategically? So what would your advice be there for someone that needs to get out of the shiny object syndrome and focus on the strategy behind it?

John Jantsch (03:54.498)

Well, I think there’s a real danger in not. In fact, think strategy is more important. And here’s why. It’s like taking somebody who used to ride a bike. You know, got a helmet, you’re riding the bike, you’re probably okay if you crash unless you’re like on a mountain or something, right? But now we’re going to put somebody in the seat of a Lamborghini without a seatbelt, without a helmet. We’re going to say, drive really fast. And if they don’t…

If they’re on the right road, if they don’t have the right map, if they don’t have the right skills, you know, they’re just going to, they’re just going to die faster. I know that’s sort of dramatic, but I think that that’s what’s going to happen from a marketing state, from a business. If your strategy is wrong, if your messaging is wrong, if your product market fit is wrong, you’re just going to fail faster now. So you might succeed faster as well.

Sara Nay (04:29.233)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (04:43.648)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:46.606)

But if you don’t have the right strategy in place, it’s going to say, here’s the path we’re going to take. There’s a real danger in just having a whole lot of technology that’s going to get you there faster.

Sara Nay (04:57.649)

Yeah, absolutely. What about the mindset shift too? Cause there definitely are different sides of things. People are like AI is the future, stuff’s changing quickly. This is the best thing ever. But there’s also the other side of things where people are like, I’m terrified as where we’re going, we’re going to lose all these jobs. And so what about adopting the right mindset to be able to advance with these different tools?

John Jantsch (05:04.824)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:10.424)

Sure. Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:16.13)

Well, I think there’s legitimate fear. There are a lot of jobs that are going to be displaced, a lot of positions, a lot of skills that are not going to be that important. mean, when you think about it, I now have the world’s smartest human beings, the world’s greatest IQ at my disposal. All of sudden being smarter is not going to be an advantage necessarily because we can tap that computing power.

so the mindset shifts, I think, I think it’s a two level, certainly at the leadership level, you have to embrace it. You have to train your folks. You have to get them ready. And I think at the manager, the skilled, you know, person working in an organization, you know, they have to realize that their job is probably not, any more about doing technical things. it is going to be about managing the path that those technical things are being done on. So.

You know, that might not be a fit for everybody who really likes to get in there and crunch the numbers and analyze the data. You know, instead of really looking at like, I need to be really good at reading actuary tables, for example, you actually need to be really good at analyzing this amazing output that you’re going to get from these tools and managing and orchestrating the output that you get and making sense of it and contextualizing it. And that’s probably a different skill set.

You know, before we got on the call, I was, and I give Lisa Adams full credit for this. her up on LinkedIn. If you want to find out some somebody who’s really doing some great things in AI. But she, she said this statement. I think we’ve been saying it for a long time. Strategy is going to be more important. The human element is going to be more important, but she, just nails it with this. As AI democratizes IQ, EQ is going to become more important.

Some people call them soft skills, but emotional quotient. The ability to bring emotion, the ability to bring reality into who you’re trying to market you, to understand your customers, to understand the context in which your customers are trying to solve their problems. Those are things that humans with high EQ are very, very good at.

John Jantsch (07:33.058)

you can take it farther. mean, AI is democratizing reach. So community is going to be more important. Like as we can like spam more people, you know, communicating is going to be more important as AI just makes it so easy for anybody who’s never written two words, or put two sentences together, can now create, you know, theoretically create long form content, you know, having that personal connection with your clients is going to become more important. So those are all things that

If you were going to go read a book or take a course on EQ, those are the kinds of things, listening, empathy are the kinds of things that they would talk about. And I think those are going to be the things that those are going to be the skills that are going to be valued in the job market moving forward.

Sara Nay (08:19.611)

Yeah, absolutely. And so we’ve talked about this a lot, you and I too, it’s right now it’s we’re not thinking about AI is replacing jobs. It’s helping us do different or better or higher level work. And so think that also sums up what you were saying there. We’re not like firing our whole team and letting them go because we’re bringing a bunch of AI. but we are helping them all elevate and us ourselves elevate, you know, to, focus on the strategic thinking and the creativity and the collaboration and the EQ elements that you talked about there as well.

John Jantsch (08:48.844)

Yeah, and sadly, there will be people that are looking at that way. Look, I can have all these agents and I don’t have to have any people. I saw somebody post on LinkedIn, the $3 billion company with only three employees. you know, those get headlines, those get clicks. But, you know, frankly, it is going to displace the positions or the functions inside of organizations. you know, certainly people with high EQ, I think, will

who can adapt to kind of a new way to work, I think will thrive. And there will be some, you know, just like everything. I mean, when the automobile came along, you know, when the factories came along, mean, different jobs got displaced when the computer came along, you know, different jobs got displaced. And, you know, the, the, it ultimately, you know, new jobs were created, new education was created, new training was created for people to, you know, to change the skills. But that’s

Sara Nay (09:20.669)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (09:44.482)

You know, it’s never great for somebody that, you know, all their life has done a certain type of job and now they’re being told, you have to, you have to work differently than you have your whole life. But you know, that that’s come really with, with even incremental changes, you know, over time in the workplace.

Sara Nay (09:53.776)

No.

Sara Nay (10:00.197)

Yeah, I think it’s really important. I read something the other day about the mind shift with AI and what you were talking about there is like, you really have to have a growth mindset with this thing. You have to be eager to learn and expand and grow as a human to be able to get the full capabilities of AI. And I think that’s a good, good way to think about it as well.

John Jantsch (10:07.918)

Totally. Totally.

John Jantsch (10:16.504)

Yeah. And I’ll acknowledge it’s exhausting. but you, you know, I think particularly at the speed, you know, that we’re moving right now, but you’re absolutely right. You have to have that gross mindset and, and it’s tough because I mean, it means you have to do things that are not comfortable. Maybe, you know, there, there’s a lot of people that you mentioned this idea that AI seems really frightening and kind of techie. And so there’s just.

Sara Nay (10:18.993)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:43.468)

You know, some folks that that’s, know, that’s not their comfort zone, but it’s a matter of, don’t mean this in a really negative sounding way, but, I don’t think we have much choice.

Sara Nay (10:55.079)

Yeah.

Another area I want to dive into a bit more is you mentioned the human element a little bit more and making personal connections with your clients. And so with the evolution of AI right now, we’re seeing people are producing more content. There’s chat bots online, you’re, you know, you’re getting cold outreach, direct outreach from AI tools. And so there’s a lot of stuff that feels very automated. LinkedIn comments is another example where it just feels very automated. So how can companies stand out from that noise by doing things such as, you know, building trust, building brand actually

John Jantsch (11:07.491)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:25.635)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (11:26.675)

connecting with people. So what are some examples to stand out from the noise?

John Jantsch (11:30.894)

Well, I think for a lot of marketers, particularly, you have to really understand your brand voice. mean, you have to have a brand voice. mean, that’s one of your differentiators. Duct tape marketing is quite often seen by people as very practical, down to earth, plain spoken. And that’s a brand voice that we’ve spent a lot of time developing. And shame on us if we use some of the automation tools to not sound like us.

so, so I think that’s really, you know, I feel like we’re very empathetic. think we’re very caring about what we do, and care about the people that we serve. and that comes out, I think in the content that we produce and, you know, it is really tempting to say, look, I can do a, I can automate somebody having a hundred LinkedIn comments, you know, spread all over the place. Well, first off, it probably is counter.

to what you’re trying to do because you know, you and I have laughed about it. You see these comments on your LinkedIn posts and it’s clearly, you know, that was just AI generated and, and, you know, it really actually kind of makes you want to ban that person, you know? And so it’s certainly not doing any value for them. But I think what it just means is it’ll get easier to spot something that is both AI generated and something that is actually authentically generated.

I think you’ll get, I think the gap between those two is going to get even larger. And so spending the time to say, Hey, here’s who I really am. And this is how I talk. And maybe I don’t use punctuation here, you know, whatever, whatever it is, that is your brand voice. I think just understand it and stay true to it. And I know there are a lot of people talking about, you can train AI to do that. but I can spot it.

Sara Nay (13:18.619)

Yeah. think one of the easiest ways to spot an actual human producing content for me versus AI, one of the best ways I can see is storytelling. If someone’s talking about their actual personal experiences, I think that’s an easy way to spot. do you think there’s going to be an increased importance of storytelling as a brand and also humans representing the brand as well?

John Jantsch (13:27.458)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (13:39.148)

Yeah. Yeah. I think storytelling has actually been, it’s been hot for 10 years. know, I mean that idea in marketing, but I think you’re right. It’s now going to be a key differentiator. mean, AI can’t make up that case story or that example of, know, what happened, you know, on the day at work in your actual office can’t be made up. And so, you know, I think that that’s a lot of ways going to be a huge differentiator.

Sara Nay (14:04.081)

Yeah, absolutely. Do you think there’s a specific area of marketing that’s being shaken up the most right now? So SEO, paid, any channels that are being shaken up the most right now?

John Jantsch (14:12.653)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:16.194)

Well, I think the content one was the first one that of course, you know, when people woke up and went, wait, I hate writing content. You mean I can just put this in this thing and it’ll spit out 700 words? I mean, the real temptation, you know, was first there because it seemed so easy. It seemed, you know, too good to be true, right? And so people certainly jumped in there. So it, now a lot of people are starting to realize the backlash of that and the fallacy of, you know, of that just being able to produce content. So that was the first area though that clearly got disrupted.

I would say the next one is clearly going to be coming in the creative space, the design, the video, the editing. mean, those are things that, again, I don’t think there’s too many people out there going to Dali and producing images for everything, but certainly it’s not far away and they’re not only having video and audio editing tools that work quite well, they’re going to have video and audio creation.

tools that are going to work, you know, to the, to the level where you could actually put in a script and it will actually create an entire video for you. So I think there’ll be some disruption there. Again, I think that’s one of those things that now all of a sudden there’s the, know, there’s a lot of things that AI tools can do. And, you know, I think the differentiator is going to be somebody looking at it and saying, you know, with our brand voice in mind, with our brand promise in mind.

what should it do? And so, you know, there are things, you know, I had somebody that wanted to have an AI bot interview me for a podcast, you know, for, for example, I was like, well, first off, I wasn’t interested, but secondly, I was like, why would anybody, you know, think that was a good idea? But, you know, there are a lot of things that people do because they look at it they go, look, if we connect this together and this connect and people get really excited about that.

Sara Nay (16:01.852)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:10.382)

But I think we have to stay real and say, okay, from a practical sense, what would be best experience for our clients?

Sara Nay (16:17.723)

Yeah, absolutely. And that’s why we’ve been really focused on recently in our conversations is what’s a good use case. Like, why are we exploring this? How can we actually make a difference with that? And I think that’s an important thing to keep in mind. Another area that I’ve heard you talk about a little bit is hyper personalization in terms of communication. And so it’s not going to be just about mass content to everyone that follows you. Like we have an opportunity to get a lot more focused in what we’re saying to specific people. So I would love to just hear your, your insights and what do you think the opportunity there is for 2025?

John Jantsch (16:47.352)

Well, for a lot of smaller businesses, the opportunity, mean, personalization has been there. Let’s face it, since email service providers came along and you could say, John, inside an email, that’s a level of personalization that’s been there forever. But what AI does is gives us easier access to a lot of data. So for instance, not only do I know your first name,

I know your LinkedIn profile and I know the last five things you’ve posted about. And that can actually be brought into a data set, you know, keeping all privacy, you know, things in mind that can be brought into a data set that would allow me to say, Hey, here are four products we sell. You talked about this. I’m going to send you an email on Tuesday morning at seven o’clock, because that’s when you post all the time. And I know you’re around on your computer. So I’m going to send you that email and I’m going to talk about.

not only a certain product that we have that I think would be a fit for you, but the problem that you uniquely identified that it solves for you. So that’s the promise of it. Now, the challenge of course is, you know, a lot of small businesses don’t have access to that data. A lot of larger organizations certainly are way ahead in that game. but

Segmenting and personalizing is something that, you know, a lot of the tool sets are going to start making easier in the very near future. And I think it’s, you know, a lot of what we have to do as marketers is informed by behavior that other companies are doing, that people get used to. And so when people start expecting that you’re going to understand, you know, what they need, or you’re going to understand it.

They already bought that product. They’re going to be less tolerant about, you know, your kind of one size fits all kind of promotion.

Sara Nay (18:41.275)

Yeah. On the sales side of things, I’m using a tool right now to prepare for sales calls where it basically brings in someone’s disc profile based on their LinkedIn. And it helps me understand how to sell to that unique individual, how to get their attention. Should I stay very high level or should I get down into the weeds? And so that’s just an example of more personalized sales. I know you were talking a lot about marketing, but marketing and sales go together. So

John Jantsch (18:57.485)

Right.

John Jantsch (19:05.582)

Yeah. I, it’s funny that I use that same tool. Of course, I just did a Google meet with somebody and it actually popped up in the Google meet and said, here’s how to talk with that person. So it was pretty, pretty cool. Yeah. I suspect it does in zoom. I didn’t, I’ve never done it, but I, that was the first time I’d seen it.

Sara Nay (19:16.414)

well.

Sara Nay (19:23.724)

Well, we’re at the top of our time about so any final thoughts just on the topic of 2025, what people should be focusing on right now in marketing.

John Jantsch (19:31.436)

Well, you said probably the one that’s the biggest, know, is, is continue to evolve. I mean, this is not going to stop. You’re not going to catch up necessarily. So continue, you know, to grow, continue to commit to growth. And I don’t think you have to, I don’t think you have to throw your hands up and say, I have to learn everything about this. Follow a couple of good people, focus on one new tool or one new use case, you know, a month.

or something so that you’ll start understanding it and start making it a priority for your teams to start, to continue to grow, to continue to learn these things so that you can actually explore them together and really start to get that mindset cemented about how we have to work with this new set of tools and technology that we’re all going to have available, whether we like it or not.

Sara Nay (20:24.893)

And I would add one more to I’ve learned a lot from just connecting and masterminding with other people that are doing really interesting things with AI and so I would also encourage you on top of what John just shared to form a mini mastermind group with some peers and share use cases and how you’re both all exploring the different tools as well because I think you can just learn a lot from others because we’re all just figuring it out right now.

John Jantsch (20:32.622)

100%.

John Jantsch (20:46.668)

We ought to do that. Why don’t we create a membership type of program where you can join and we’ll give you a use case once a month and kind of collaborate as a group in a live training or something. If that sounds interesting to you, send me an email, because that’s something we might actually work on. think that would be a really cool thing. So it’s just John at Duct Tape Marketing if you think that that idea of a collaboration membership.

around AI so you can learn in real time. Like there’s no way to create a course on AI because it’s changing so fast, but kind of having a monthly accountability group where you’re working on a use case might actually be kind of cool. So let’s do that, sir.

Sara Nay (21:26.609)

Let’s do it. heard it here first. We’ll keep it as practical as possible. So thanks, John.

John Jantsch (21:28.206)

All right. Awesome. Well, thank you all for tuning in to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. And this is where I guess I’m supposed to say, hopefully we’ll see you one of these days out there on the road.

Sara Nay (21:42.109)

Thanks everyone.