Agency Growth Starts with Existing Clients

Agency Growth Starts with Existing Clients written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Max Traylor

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Max Traylor, consultant, author of The Agency Survival Guide, and host of Beers with Max. Max helps marketing agencies rethink their approach to agency growth by focusing on agency upselling, client retention, and long-term relationship strategies.

During our conversation, Max shared powerful insights on why agencies should move beyond constantly chasing new clients and instead focus on cross-selling strategies and client upsell tactics to generate sustainable agency revenue. From the dangers of relying too heavily on retainer agreements to the benefits of project-based pricing and strategic marketing leadership, Max explains why aligning with clients’ business objectives is the key to profitable, long-term success in today’s fast-evolving digital agency landscape.

Key Takeaways:

  • Successful agency growth relies more on deepening client relationships than constantly pursuing new clients.
  • Agency upselling and cross-selling strategies should be treated as core parts of the agency sales process, not afterthoughts.
  • Agencies should focus on providing marketing leadership services to guide small business marketing strategies, especially when internal leadership is lacking.
  • Retainers often lead to scope creep and reduced agency profitability — project-based pricing offers better control and margins.
  • Agencies that shift from transactional services to strategic marketing advisory roles build stronger, more resilient businesses.
  • Regular client check-ins, focused on business goals rather than marketing metrics, unlock new opportunities for client upsell tactics.
  • Pricing confidently — and aligning agency pricing strategies with value provided — helps agencies avoid the race to the bottom.

Chapters:

  • [00:09] Introducing Max Traylor
  • [01:29] Are Agencies in Trouble?
  • [04:25] Leadership is Missing
  • [07:00] Growing Revenue with Current Clients
  • [11:46] Are Retainers the Right Way To Go?
  • [15:36] Productizing Your Services
  • [18:01] Advice on Starting a Consulting Service Today

More About Max Traylor: 



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John Jantsch (00:01.009)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Max Traylor. He helps agencies upsell and cross sell their existing clients. His approach centers on building relationships with decision makers and aligning with their business objectives, which ultimately leads to long-term retention and growth. Max is also the host of beers with Max podcast where he interviews other agency advisors and the author of the agency survival guide book.

series. So Max, welcome to the show.

Max Traylor (00:32.11)

Yeah, I didn’t realize the intro was so long when I was writing it. But yeah, you nailed it. You got it all. What do do now?

John Jantsch (00:37.273)

I cut some out, believe it or not.

You know what? I stumbled on my name, actually, because this is my third show today. So I think I’m struggling. So did I also see you drink a beer?

Max Traylor (00:49.912)

Yeah.

No, that was water. Uh, well you, you caught me with some, uh, cambocha, you know, cause for the gut. Yeah, me too. But I, you know, I’m on, I’m on 10 and a half weeks, uh, after breaking my foot and I got out of the boot. got out of the big walkie boot thing two days ago and, yeah, beer does not help with the healing of bones. So I’m really trying. Um, I’m really trying.

John Jantsch (00:54.183)

I know, that a runner.

okay. All right. I was kind of hoping it was a beer,

John Jantsch (01:06.727)

yeah. wow. Wow.

John Jantsch (01:14.971)

I’m I’m out, out, I’m out.

Yeah, yeah. No, no, you, got to do it. You got to get back out there. So there’s a lot of intrepidation in the agency world right now. I’m seeing, you know, a lot of, our mutual friend, I think I saw you comment on, Marcus Sheridan had a recent post, basically saying the, agency world is over that, you know, AI is replacing a lot of the things that agencies traditionally have done. Where do you stand on, on that? kind of sky is falling.

Max Traylor (01:23.406)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:49.255)

approach.

Max Traylor (01:49.856)

Yeah, I I was, I was, I was saying that 10 years ago. and that’s when I started is 10 years ago. So I think, I think there’s always a healthy dose of one thing going out the door, but you know, I, I was originally, I was seeing what was going on in, in the, in the Martech boost. So you got a lot of, it reduced the barriers of entry for agencies down to zero. So a lot of new entries into the market.

John Jantsch (01:53.925)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:11.867)

Yeah, yeah, Sure.

Max Traylor (02:18.786)

They knew how to design things because it was, you know, CMS world of like low code sites. So people could look like they knew what they were doing very easily. And it causes prices. caused prices to drop across the board. Then you had that surge of, gig network websites, which I think was the first sort of chop at the tactical deliverable.

John Jantsch (02:22.961)

Yeah, right.

Max Traylor (02:43.31)

work that agencies were doing and then I think I think AI just gave it the you the one to knockout punch on On that one. So yeah, I would yeah

John Jantsch (02:49.285)

Yeah. you also, I would say a version in there, squeezed in there somewhere, is you had all the folks that had a team in Philippines doing work and that really eroded pricing as well.

Max Traylor (03:04.054)

Yeah, sure. Yeah. just all the but I mean, I’ve always been in on team strategic work. I think that the the value of a third party is in their expertise, not what they can do. And the the doing of things will always go up and down in terms of you need a specialist to do it or some piece of technology just took that person’s job. I think it’s very difficult to have a long term sustainable professional service business.

where the service you provide is constantly changing, whether that’s being taken by AI or whatever it is. But if you have something strategic, if you specialize in understanding the way people buy, I mean, that might change a little bit over the course of 10 years. And that’s where you can really build up some expertise and monetize it.

John Jantsch (03:37.671)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:50.821)

Yeah, you you see, I’ve been doing this for a long time. So I’ve seen the wave of digital marketing agencies, social marketing agencies, know, that just like kind now you’re seeing AI agencies, people just kind of hopping on the latest train, and they eventually all get wiped out.

Max Traylor (04:09.42)

Yes. the train does leave the station eventually and you’re caught reinventing yourself. Nobody knows who you are. you’re, you’re, you’re, cutting, cutting prices. Yeah. So, that’s, that’s sort of the narrative that I keep talking about is like, be careful aligning yourself with the tactical work. will constantly changed. It will constantly be undercut. is low margin. It’s volume game.

John Jantsch (04:14.503)

Yeah.

Max Traylor (04:37.056)

And unless you’re a volume player, which most of us in this game are not, then we’re going get hurt out there.

John Jantsch (04:43.975)

So I have been preaching that because I think what’s happening is not only strategy become more important. think especially in the small to mid-sized business that really doesn’t have a marketing structure, certainly no marketing leadership, that actually providing marketing leadership as a service I think is sort of the next level of what being strategic means. I’m curious what you think about that idea.

Max Traylor (05:09.474)

Yeah, I agree with that. However, I continue to find that leadership in general and decision making in general is at an all time low. So if the idea is that we’re going to provide marketing leadership and come up alongside sales leadership, product leadership, what I’m finding is that leadership just isn’t there.

There’s rarely a defined decision-making process. There’s rarely a delegation of authority to the members of that leadership team. There’s nothing that says, this is the information we’re going to look at, and we’re going to make a decision every quarter for our budget in this regard. So if that’s not there, then what are you coming up alongside as a marketing?

John Jantsch (06:01.799)

Well, I guess my point is, is I agree with you. there’s nothing to come alongside. So why don’t you bring it to them?

Max Traylor (06:10.412)

Yes. And, so with a yes and, because I don’t think the, I don’t think your task is to bring marketing leadership. I think your task is to bring leadership and you should be prepared for the first time to facilitate a leadership planning session. So I think it’s one, I think you need to skip, or just recognize that you’re, you’re not just leading marketing as the person that

that owns that space, you’re also needing to facilitate probably for the first time, a decision making process, a planning cadence. And so you need to be well versed in the other departments in the business and you can’t, you can’t just assume that everything’s going to function the way you think it should function.

John Jantsch (06:57.113)

I think you should assume completely the opposite. Of course.

Max Traylor (06:59.662)

Yes, assume complete dysfunction. is the way. Sometimes I talk to smaller agencies and they believe that going up market, those clients are going to have their stuff together. You and I both know that it’s more chaotic the larger the organizations get, which makes it a lot easier to provide value in a strategic way because they’re so dysfunctional.

John Jantsch (07:12.773)

Yeah, yeah,

John Jantsch (07:24.391)

Yeah. Yeah. It’s just more meetings. It’s what I’ve found. Yeah. So let’s, let’s get to your favorite topic. Shall we? I know that you have been for some amount of time talking about this idea of here’s an idea. You’ve got a client already. Why don’t you get more business out of them? Scale the relationship that you already have. So talk a little bit about, and I know you’ve got some success stories you could talk about.

Max Traylor (07:27.95)

It is more meetings. That’s correct. Yeah. So you got to charge.

John Jantsch (07:52.699)

But talk a little bit about that mindset shift even.

Max Traylor (07:56.386)

Yeah, I mean, we want to make, we want to make revenue. Let’s start there. We can all agree. We’re at the, we’re at the fireplace. Cool. you get revenue from two sides of the business. You get new clients and you upsell cross sell to existing clients. That’s the only way to get revenue. That’s the only way to grow revenue. And all of the studies are showing a downward trend in the number of new meetings, a downward trend in the number of new logos coming on. is getting harder.

John Jantsch (08:24.005)

Mm.

Max Traylor (08:25.518)

person I was interviewing the other day had some study in his hand. all do. it was meetings are across the board down 30 % in 2024 and it’s only getting worse in 2025. The numbers are irrelevant. Just go ask people. You and I talked to enough people. New logos are getting harder. That’s the theme of 2023, 2024. Everything was sunshine and rainbows before that. So my question to everyone out there is when new logos are hard,

why can’t we look at upsell cross sell as a reliable revenue growth engine. And the reason is, no one’s paying attention to it. No one’s incentivizing for it. No one’s training for it. No one’s holding people accountable. We’re completely asleep at the wheel. It’s as if we hired a bunch of salespeople without incentivizing them or training them. And by the way, they’ve never worked in sales before. That’s what’s going on in the agency space.

John Jantsch (09:23.015)

All right, so let’s talk about mistakes on this, because that seems like a simple concept, but it also seems like there’s ways to screw it up. Because I’ve seen agencies that have business development folks, and they’re like, no, that’s my job. But they have no real relationship with the client, whereas the account manager or whoever, project manager, whatever you call them, is working with the client every day.

How do you see that working? Is it a business development function or is it train your account managers to look for opportunities?

Max Traylor (09:53.134)

I think that if it had to be a business account function, that would be better than it is today because I don’t see what you’ve just described where an account executive that is responsible for a revenue quota is going, okay, I could sell to new logos. Okay, my pipeline’s a little dry. What do we have for existing clients? Who can I upsell there? That is not the mindset because what typically happens is the principal assigns

And I say assigns in big sarcastic quotes, assigns upsell cross-sell client retention to the services side of the business. And it’s actually a no fly zone. It’s a no fly zone. It’s a don’t go there. It’s not your job. You won’t be incentivized for it. That’s the attitude towards the sales team in an effort to, make sure they focus on getting new logos.

And so honestly, if, if we just broke down the barriers and just admitted that our service people aren’t willing to aren’t willing or able at the moment to pull their weight and upsell clients and you just unleashed the sales team on existing clients, I think they’d get pretty far. I think they do pretty well. But it’s not happening.

John Jantsch (11:06.799)

Yeah. Yeah. How, how, are they going to identify the opportunities? mean, theoretically, the account executive is in there going over the way they should do this. We should do this. Here’s an opportunity. How does, how does the sales person can identify those?

Max Traylor (11:20.618)

I don’t care who it is, but to identify sales opportunities, you ask questions. And right now agencies are spending months, if not years, not asking questions at all. They’re delivering reports on clicks and whatever we think the client says is their business objectives, which they’re never, we’re never delivering against business objectives. We’re delivering some marketing metric.

John Jantsch (11:24.881)

Yeah, yeah.

Max Traylor (11:43.722)

We’re talking about the things that we have delivered. We haven’t had a business conversation since the sales process. That’s the reality for most clients. So I don’t care who does it. I don’t care what dress you put on it. I don’t care if you bring in a third party. If it’s sales, you come in and you say, hey, I want to ask you some questions about your business. What are you? What are you? What initiatives are you investing in across the board? Let’s talk about sales. Let’s talk about product. Let’s talk about.

finance, let’s talk about anything that’s not marketing. Like let’s, let’s just, let’s talk about real stuff here. You ask questions, you understand what they’re spending money on. And then you say, Hmm, how can I add value, to those business objectives? Like that’s what sale that sales. So that’s what we got to do.

John Jantsch (12:27.399)

Yeah. So a lot of agencies structure their fees around retainers. I know how you feel about this. So I’m just going to let you have this one. What about, what do you tell that agency says, well, we’re locked into this retainer. I, I, I’m, I’ll set you up. think you think retainers are not the right way.

Max Traylor (12:38.766)

Did I say that before? I don’t know.

Max Traylor (12:52.182)

Well, like, you know, when you go bowling and there’s the people with the bumpers? Yeah, yeah. Or or or you’re riding a bike and there’s training wheels. Yeah. Retainers are for the non confident. Retainers are a trade off. First of all, we all know that any retainer relationship is going to get less profitable as time goes on because the client is incentivized to get more and more from you for what they’re paying. Great. So profitability goes down.

John Jantsch (12:58.95)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:19.111)

Yeah.

Max Traylor (13:22.104)

The other challenge is it’s nearly impossible to grow or expand that account when you’re on retainer, because the whole point is we’re on retainer and you get whatever you need from us. So there’s no upsell. Retainer also breeds this sort of complacency throughout the entire account team. And all they’re thinking about is how do I hang on to this? It’s a very defensive posture. Ultimately, the client starts to gain control. They start to set

scope and tell agency what to do. You’ve lost control, you’re done, you’re going to lose that account. So you see a lot of agencies that are not confident in their upsell motion go after retainers. And honestly, I think it’s a false sense of security because if a client is going to cancel after month three, they’re going to cancel. The fact that you have a contract that lasts a year is completely irrelevant. They could berate you across the internet and you’ll be begging to get out

track. So let’s be real. What is much more profitable and naturally breeds upsell is projects. Everybody hates projects because you have to keep selling them. There is a middle ground. I always tell agencies, look, you want to have that long term conversation. You want to create a roadmap that aligns with their business objectives for the course of the year, because that’s when they decide how much budget is going to be allocated to say marketing.

John Jantsch (14:23.377)

Yeah.

Max Traylor (14:47.538)

But what I wouldn’t do is say, OK, here’s exactly what I’m to do with that budget for the course of the year. I’m going to say, look, we as as an as your new marketing leader and I know organization that you don’t have a cadence, but as your new marketing leader, I suggest that once a quarter we as a leadership team get together and decide how this budget will be allocated. Will create a plan that says here the goals here are the roles, the timeline, the budget considerations.

John Jantsch (15:08.817)

Yeah.

Max Traylor (15:17.27)

And what that does is it gives you the benefit of a project because you can scope that out very defined. So you maintain your margins and you maintain control of the client account, but it also forces the leadership team, the budget holding decision makers to come to the table once a quarter and you sit and you listen.

John Jantsch (15:33.574)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (15:40.241)

So this sort of relates to that. We work with a lot of, end up, I have ended up having a lot of conversations with agencies that feel like they, you know, they can’t get what they’re worth or what, you know, they’re always in this competitive environment. How do you, a lot of times it’s just, they won’t charge what they’re worth. You know, because they’re afraid they won’t get the work.

Max Traylor (15:59.446)

Yeah, honestly, step one, you don’t even have to you don’t have to pay me you don’t have to pay john just raise your prices like you’ll it’s a sobering exercise. There’s there’s someone there’s somewhere in between what you’re charging today, and what you’re worth and you got to find that but yes, that’s that’s step one for many people.

John Jantsch (16:05.221)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (16:17.575)

Seth Godin in his last book, and I never heard this put so succinctly. said, you know, pricing is how you pick your clients and how you pick your competitors. And I was like, yeah, that’s, that’s very real.

Max Traylor (16:31.212)

Yeah, yeah, my dad always said, you know, if you get a yes, that all you’ve learned is that you didn’t charge enough. No is the beginning of getting to the price that they’re willing to pay.

John Jantsch (16:38.627)

Right.

John Jantsch (16:45.243)

We went through a period and I don’t know if we’re out of it or still in it, know, where a lot of agencies were very much trying to productize their approach, you know, package their approach, their deliverables, you know, that they could say, well, if we charge this for this deliverable, we know what our margin is. Where do you fall on that type of approach? I still see a lot of it. It seems like it’s waning a little. Where do you fall on that?

Max Traylor (17:06.956)

Yeah, I mean, my first book was how to productize your consulting services. I mean, I think the term productize gets confused a lot. What I really mean is be an adult responsible service provider. Like you can’t just say it’s chaos. You can’t say it’s different for every client. No, grow up. You need a service process. Of course, clients are going to get, you know, different deliverables and things, but you have to decide these are the companies I’m working with.

John Jantsch (17:10.041)

Right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:14.789)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (17:23.675)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Max Traylor (17:35.362)

this is the process we’re going to use to deliver the value and you have to make some decisions on on what you know, piece of the value proposition that you want to contribute to. So I for years, there’s been a general lack of decision making on positioning and on service process. It’s been complete chaos. So yes, I’ve used that term product ties just to say you deliver the same thing to the same people for the same price or you don’t have a business. have operational chaos. what I’ve, what I,

John Jantsch (18:00.945)

Yeah, yeah.

Max Traylor (18:03.35)

I guess what I’ve seen is yes, more and more companies have done that. let’s say 10 years ago, sales consultancy world was very mature in this area. The world did not need another sales methodology, right? There was 25 million books on this is the sales methodology and clients got tired of that. They were like, look, I don’t care what, I don’t care what your methodology is. Just what are you going to do for me? Marketing was about 10 years behind. had 10 years of taking chaos into these named.

John Jantsch (18:17.339)

Mm-hmm.

Max Traylor (18:33.07)

methodologies and this is our inbound thing. Now every buzzword in the English language has been claimed. Clients are fatigued. Yes, I think there’s no longer this. we have this proprietary named thing. So no, I don’t think there’s that there’s that lure to it from a sales standpoint, but you still need to create that product mindset within your services team to get

to get repeatable operations, to be able to set and meet expectations with clients. You still have to do it. It’s just not like, it’s not, you’re not putting it in bright lights and going, look at what we can do. It’s like, yeah, I look AI can tell me that too.

John Jantsch (19:13.37)

Right.

All right. So your answer may be don’t, but if somebody were listening to this and saying, I’m going to start a consulting agency today, how, would you tell them? Where would you tell them to go? What would you tell them they had to have to be thinking about? What would you tell them they possibly, you know, can’t possibly do?

Max Traylor (19:40.642)

Well, the first thing I would do is ask myself, where do I have experience? My grandfather always said, you have to know the territory. And the worst thing that people do, like you have perfectly capable business owners out there that start agencies, but they go through this phase of, we’re going to see what works. And, you know, they ask for some referrals and they’ll spend years in chaos, not really developing an identity for themselves and whatever identity they do develop.

completely tactical, replaceable, marginalized by people in decision making seats. So they have to just look at their career and say, what business acumen do I have? Okay, I’m going to do that. And they have to make that scary decision. And when they make that scary decision, you got to spend the first year talking to as many people as you can in that space, figure out what they need, do that for them. Those are those are the basics that I just don’t see.

people, people do. I think you can develop an incredibly successful business if you A, choose your target market and B, are relentless about speaking to them, understanding what their needs are. those two things. I think you’re good. think, I think agency is in a great place. but not for most given the mindset that I encounter, you know, day in and day out.

John Jantsch (20:54.748)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:02.053)

Yeah, I said a billion times, people don’t care, don’t want what we sell. They want their problem solved. I think that’s what, that’s what we have to continue to focus on. Yeah.

Max Traylor (21:10.188)

Yeah, so you are you are problem finders. So you got to your thing, you got to go figure out what their problem is. And then you got to help them solve the problem. I would I would still say that, you know, there are are two steps to solving a problem. It’s helping the client understand how to solve that problem. That I think is where the money is. That’s selling knowledge that’s selling expertise. Then there’s the doing of that thing. That’s the commoditized area that’s either going to be my AI or, you know, shark.

John Jantsch (21:27.463)

Yeah.

Max Traylor (21:39.278)

Price chopped chum water with.

whatever generation is entering the market now, I can’t keep track of it. But those guys, those people.

John Jantsch (21:47.431)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Max Traylor (21:55.197)

Uh-huh. But they’re out there cutting prices is what they’re doing.

Max Traylor (22:09.046)

As a great new social network, LinkedIn. Yeah. Max trailer, LinkedIn. I’m always saying opinionated things and posting videos.

John Jantsch (22:11.717)

Yeah, okay. Yeah, that’s

John Jantsch (22:17.605)

Yeah. No, your, your feed is, is, lively and interesting. How’s that? That was a tough one. Okay. That’s how it was, man, as well. Again, thanks for stopping by. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Max Traylor (22:23.458)

Thank you.

Max Traylor (22:26.978)

Yes, I took it as such.

Max Traylor (22:35.054)

Cheers.


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How Small Businesses Win on Reddit in 2025

How Small Businesses Win on Reddit in 2025 written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Jim Squires

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Jim Squires, Executive Vice President of Business Marketing and Growth at Reddit. We explored how small businesses and marketing agencies can tap into Reddit’s communities to build authentic engagement, run effective Reddit Ads, and grow their brands through community-based marketing. Whether you’re looking for tips on Reddit organic engagement or want to maximize Reddit advertising for your business, Jim shared actionable strategies every small business owner and digital marketer should know.

During our conversation, Jim highlighted how Reddit marketing strategies differ from traditional social media marketing. With over 100,000 active Reddit communities, businesses can reach highly engaged, niche audiences in ways that simply aren’t possible on other platforms. From interest-based targeting to upvote/downvote dynamics that prioritize authentic content, Reddit for businesses offers a unique opportunity to build community trust while driving both awareness and conversions.

Key Takeaways:

  • Reddit is a community-driven platform where users gather around shared passions and interests, creating valuable opportunities for niche marketing strategies and online community marketing.
  • Unlike traditional social platforms, Reddit’s upvote/downvote system ensures the most helpful and engaging content rises to the top, rewarding brands that embrace authentic brand voice and transparency.
  • Small businesses can launch targeted campaigns quickly using Reddit Ads, benefiting from interest-based targeting that puts their message in front of the right communities without needing large budgets.
  • Reddit Pro, a free tool, helps businesses monitor trending conversations, track competitor mentions, and identify new content strategies through the Reddit trends tool.
  • Combining paid Reddit advertising with organic Reddit engagement allows businesses to build community trust while driving both brand awareness and sales.
  • For marketing agencies, Reddit offers unique reach into hard-to-access communities, especially for B2B marketing and localized small business marketing.
  • Successful brands on Reddit embrace transparency, engage directly with users through formats like AMAs, and avoid overly polished or sales-driven messaging, which is heavily discouraged by community self-promotion rules.
  • As online conversations and trust become critical to customer decision-making, Reddit offers small businesses a chance to be part of the dialogue in a way that builds long-term credibility and customer loyalty.

Chapters:

  • [00:09] Introducing Jim Squires
  • [00:56] How Does Reddit Differ From Other Platforms?
  • [04:20] Impact of Search on Reddit
  • [05:54] Best Practices for Businesses on Reddit
  • [08:17] How Does Advertising Fit in on Reddit
  • [10:52] Getting Organic Reach on Reddit
  • [13:05] Small Business Mistakes on Reddit
  • [15:47] How to Measure Success on Reddit
  • [18:34] Meeting People Where They Are

More About Jim Squires: 

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

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John Jantsch (00:00.981)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Jim Squires. He’s a Reddit’s EVP of business marketing and growth. He oversees the strategy and expansion behind Reddit’s marketing efforts as they relate to our growing advertiser base. So their growing advertiser base is probably what I should have said. Jim, welcome to the show.

Jim Squires (00:23.662)

Hi John, it’s great to be here.

John Jantsch (00:25.437)

So I told you off air that I had Alexis on the show about five or six years ago. He’s no longer involved at all, In Reddit, Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let’s talk a little bit about, you know, I think Reddit has started to get lumped into social platforms. I’m not sure that’s where they started. It certainly has its own.

Jim Squires (00:35.975)

Correct. Yep. Steve Hoffman is our CEO and founder actually from the very beginning.

John Jantsch (00:53.579)

personality, I guess, if you will. So talk a little bit about how the unique culture at Reddit on the platform kind of differ, is different from say LinkedIn and Facebook and some other social platforms.

Jim Squires (00:59.97)

Yep.

Jim Squires (01:05.176)

Yeah, yeah, it is unique. It’s a very different platform. It is, I describe it as a community of communities. And so you’ve got a hundred thousand plus active communities, everything from gaming to gardening, tech to travel, investing to interior design, really anything that you can think of is on there. And so people organize around their interests and their passions.

And it’s very different from other platforms in the sense that even the dynamics, there’s not likes on the platform. There’s up votes and down votes, which means that only the really universally valuable, interesting things float up and get distribution. The stuff that’s really divisive or controversial gets a lot of up votes and down votes and then never gets anywhere. So it feels very different. It’s anonymous. So people use pseudonyms on the platforms. And so there’s a lot of different dimensions, but the biggest thing

John Jantsch (01:38.923)

Yeah, right.

Jim Squires (02:02.318)

to think about is those communities and the passion and how people organize around that.

John Jantsch (02:05.525)

Yes.

Yeah, and really niche, right? mean, like subreddit, subreddit, subreddit of, you know, a very small community, right? But the people that are in that community are not just casual passerbys. I mean, they are like totally into it,

Jim Squires (02:21.838)

Yeah, yeah. I you have massive communities. There’s communities like be amazed or which car should I buy that have millions of people in them. And then to your point, you can go super niche and super deep into specific categories as well. So it really runs across the board.

John Jantsch (02:33.953)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:41.825)

So in terms of communication, engagement, participation, how would you say, you know, there in the early days, particularly, there was kind of this vibe of like behave here and be a good citizen or, know, you’ll get kicked out kind of thing, as opposed to say, I don’t know, all comers on Twitter or something, you know, might’ve been. So I’m sure as Reddit has grown, you know, some of that’s probably gone away, but would you say that that, that sort of DNA still exists? Yeah.

Jim Squires (03:10.218)

It definitely does. It is a, part of what I was describing before with this up vote, down vote dynamic that keeps bad behavior from bubbling over because it just, you’re just not rewarded for doing anything in that, in that area. You’ve got moderators for each of the communities that have their, their own rules and they govern how that community is going to, to engage. so,

John Jantsch (03:24.107)

Yeah, yeah.

Jim Squires (03:35.822)

between the rules of engagement and knowing that if you’re going to step out of line or behave poorly, one, no one’s gonna probably see it, and two, the moderator might ban you or take you out of that community. So it really keeps things positive and helpful for people.

John Jantsch (03:47.445)

Yeah, and-

John Jantsch (03:52.85)

And, poorly is not just calling people names. mean, it’s self-promotion too, right?

Jim Squires (03:57.294)

That’s exactly right. People, and this is great advice for small businesses as well, is people don’t, which is not unlike anywhere, even in our personal lives, they don’t like to be marketed to. They want to be spoken to. They know there’s humans behind these businesses and the more you can show that humanity of the business and engage with people in a way that doesn’t feel like you’re just being salesy or too overly polished, that resonates really well, especially on Reddit.

John Jantsch (04:07.809)

That’s right.

John Jantsch (04:25.451)

Yeah. So one of the things that it’s probably been going on longer, but certainly has been very noticeable maybe for the last three years is that, you know, Reddit used, it feels like Reddit used to exist in its own universe. And now you can’t do a Google search that doesn’t usually turn up some Reddit conversations. So how has that changed the dynamic of the platform?

Jim Squires (04:45.772)

Great. Yeah.

It has, mean, it’s interesting because Reddit’s been around for 20 years doing its thing. And there actually is just this rich repository of all these conversations that have happened over 20 years. But it really has become even more important and it’s having a cultural moment right now because, and my view on this is because there’s so much AI-generated content and search, AI-generated search results pages and

John Jantsch (05:09.013)

Yeah.

Jim Squires (05:18.616)

People have grown tired of paid influencers. They see through that and they’re much more savvy on being sold to. And so there really is this desire to have a more authentic connection, really hear from people, hear their real opinions about things. And so many people, to your point, they come in through a search. they’re looking for, they’re going camping and they’re getting into camping. Gear is a really big part of any hobby and passion that you have.

John Jantsch (05:46.849)

Yeah, yeah.

Jim Squires (05:48.268)

looking for something in particular, Reddit pops up in the search results and then they find themselves now in these conversations. So a lot of people discover Reddit through search and then they stay for the community because they realize, wow, there’s so much more here beyond just that camping gear I was just looking for.

John Jantsch (06:04.651)

Yeah. So, however, commerce is happening, right? on Reddit. So, so let’s talk a little bit about, if I’m in a small business and I thought, I’m playing on all these other platforms. How can I get into Reddit? Or if I’m an agency and I’m thinking, you know, how do I bring my clients, and get value out of Reddit? You know, I’m sure it depends on the business and the niche and what your goals are.

Jim Squires (06:10.188)

Right, it is, definitely.

John Jantsch (06:29.877)

But in general, is there kind of a best practice approach to get yourself up and going on Reddit?

Jim Squires (06:37.004)

Yep. I we keep it really simple and it’s relevant for really whatever category you’re in or whatever business that you’re running. There is a really easy to use ads interface. is the easiest way to, you small businesses don’t typically have a lot of time. They want to get to results and find new customers quickly. And so we make it easy to through ads, just quickly get distribution. And so you can take, you know, if you’re running advertising on another platform,

make it really easy to import that campaign over. You can use the AI tools to automate things and just get it going really quickly. And really, just with a few hundred dollars, you can start seeing progress and seeing and getting new customers. In fact, we should throw it in the notes, but we have for duct tape marketing listeners, we’ve got a promo code, duct tape 500 that they can use to get started on ads if they want to. But I recommend that’s just the easiest way to dip your toe in is just get

ads going and I can talk more about tactically how that works. And then the other thing I want to call out is we have a free set of tools to also get going. And so we call it Reddit Pro. And through Reddit Pro, you can get your official presence on Reddit, so your official profile, and you can start actually seeing trends. So what are people saying about your business, your competitors? What are people talking about in your category? What’s trending? What’s interesting?

John Jantsch (07:36.683)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:58.497)

Hmm.

Jim Squires (08:02.67)

and then actually shows you which of those communities you can go into and learn more. And you can even start engaging as the official business. People love to hear from businesses when they’re authentic and they’re talking as humans and getting some inside tracks. That’s the other thing you can do.

John Jantsch (08:13.974)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Serving and solving problems, right? So, so let’s, I want to get back to organic in a minute, but let’s touch on the advertising again. You said it’s duct tape 500. that’s D U C T T A P E 500. And if you spend 500, you’re going to get 500. So that’s kind of the way that deal works. How does advertising, I know some platforms that were traditionally very organic and then figured out, we got to make money.

Jim Squires (08:19.812)

I like that, yes, well said.

Jim Squires (08:34.562)

That’s right. That’s right.

John Jantsch (08:45.069)

we’re going to sell ads. The ads, they struggle with how do we get those in? How are people going to view those? And obviously an ad is a call to action quite often, by now kind of thing. So how does that fit in culturally?

Jim Squires (08:57.742)

Mm-hmm.

Jim Squires (09:03.406)

Well, it’s interesting. We took the reverse approach. So we started with ads before the organic. And so people got used to it pretty quickly as far as how it fits in. mean, a big part of it is kind of thinking about what communities are going to be most relevant to you. And we made that really easy as well. So for example, health and well-being, there’s lots of communities in that realm. So everything from

John Jantsch (09:09.387)

Okay.

Jim Squires (09:32.142)

The communities are always structured r slash. So r slash get motivated, r slash weight loss, r slash fitness. These are all in that health and wellness category. But as a small business, you don’t have time to go through and try to figure out which of these communities is going to be relevant to you. So you can just tag health as a interest category that you think is relevant for your products. And then the ad system will go out and pull all the relevant

communities that might be of interest and the people that are in those communities, it’s anonymous, so that you can then get your ad in front of them either in those communities or when they’re in their feed or they’re in some other community on the site. So it’s a really easy way to get into those interests and then your product is gonna be very relevant for those individuals because they’ve expressed interest in that area.

John Jantsch (10:26.155)

So let’s say I want to do a combination. I want to actually build an organic presence as well as doing some advertising. What’s a, you know, it’s probably not an overnight solution, but what is, what’s a kind of best practices approach for getting some organic reach on?

Jim Squires (10:43.82)

Yeah, yeah. Well, you would want to set up your official profile. So you get that. This is now my business on Reddit. So people know that you’re the official voice of that business. And you really want to start. We just released a new product called Trends that’s free as part of Reddit Pro. And I always suggest just quickly jumping in. can actually specify.

John Jantsch (10:48.289)

Right,

Jim Squires (11:09.966)

keywords that you think are interesting or related to your business. And you can start seeing through your category what might be trending, what are people talking about? Are people talking about my business? Are they talking about my competitors’ businesses? What are they saying? And that gives you an entree into, okay, do I want to engage yet? Or I just want to kind of check things out and see what the tone is and see what’s happening there. Now the businesses that really…

elevate and do really well are actually they start engaging and they start interacting with the community and people really appreciate. We talked earlier about showing the humanity of the business. They appreciate transparency. So having the good and the bad, it’s being, it’s, you know, talking about things that maybe not aren’t perfect, gets you a lot of credibility in a community and across Reddit. There is a

a business that’s on Reddit that sells diaper bags, like travel diaper bags. It’s called the No Reception Club. And they jumped on there and they’re running ads. They also have an organic presence. And people were commenting that the bags were too expensive. They had really high price point. And so instead of just kind of withering away or not addressing that,

John Jantsch (12:11.233)

Yeah.

Jim Squires (12:31.256)

they hit a head on and started talking about why it’s a high price point because of all these features, the quality, they’ve got a lifetime warranty and that built so much credibility with people in those communities and went over a lot of people that were saying, I see, they actually engage in me and explained what is going on and that just gives you a lot of points.

John Jantsch (12:52.479)

Yeah, sure. So what are some of the challenges you’ve seen or maybe we could even say mistakes you’ve seen small businesses make, you know, really trying to engage on Reddit.

Jim Squires (13:03.778)

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, kind of the mistakes that get made relate to what we were just talking about. So you cut you come in and you can imagine like, like as humans, we don’t walk into a meeting or walk into a party and just start shouting about ourself. You you you ease your way in. You start talking. You get you get a feel for the vibe and what’s happening. And then you can talk about yourself and what you’re doing. And so the brands that that would show up or businesses that show up and and we coach on this so it doesn’t happen.

very often, but if you show up and you are just just shouting with salesy messaging and and not being authentic and engaging that way, it’s a you’re not going to get shouted away. I you can show up with ads. People are used to ads and they’re not going to, know, you can turn off comments and not really worry about it that much. But again, as we were saying before, if you really want to elevate, you really want to have success in the platform. Being aware of that, even turning comments on.

because you want to hear from people and you want to understand your customers, that’s kind where you elevate to the next level.

John Jantsch (14:08.289)

Ken, is there a type of content that performs questions, behind the scenes insights, educational posts, AMAs? mean, is there a certain type that you think performs better?

Jim Squires (14:17.486)

Yeah, that’s a great question.

I love that. It’s not one specific type, but I like where you’re going. The angle on this is, within the different formats, what type of content might resonate. And I would say that, in general, that transparency and being willing to engage always does well. So the AMA is a perfect example of that. There was actually Oatly, the oat milk brand. I love they did an AMA and they invited

Big dairy, know, big dairy businesses to come co-host with them and talk about climate footprint labeling. No one from Big Dairy showed up on that and took them up on it. Well, that small dairy showed up and there was a Scottish dairy farmer that showed up and actually engaged and talked through and they had a really good dialogue. So that type of content does well. Behind the scenes content is really, really good. I mean, you can imagine a microbrewery

John Jantsch (14:53.131)

Yeah, yeah.

Jim Squires (15:19.778)

taking you behind the scenes on how they brew their IPAs and people really want to geek out on that. They want to see the technical aspects of it, understand what’s behind the scenes. And what it does is it shows when you show, because we all, with each of our businesses, we have a passion for what we’re doing. That’s why we started that business. And so when you show that enthusiasm, that passion and that craft, these people in the communities, they have the same passion. And so it really resonates with them.

John Jantsch (15:28.715)

Yes.

Jim Squires (15:48.396)

and then they want to lean in and they want to learn more about

John Jantsch (15:52.363)

So imagine the CEO sitting around saying, okay, my agency says I need to be on Reddit. How do I know if I’m getting any return on being there? What type of reporting, what type of measurement is available for somebody to know? Am I having success?

Jim Squires (16:02.359)

Yeah.

Jim Squires (16:09.57)

Yep, yep. mean, that’s, that is the key. What am I, what have I accomplished here? So Reddit is a, it is, it’s multi objective. So it really, it really goes from, you know, top of the funnel reach all the way down to driving sales with what you’re trying to do. And so it depends on where you’re at in your life cycle and kind of what you’re trying to achieve. But I think about on the, discovery side, so people are showing up and they’re really open minded. They want to discover new products and services.

I do look at the overall reach that you’re getting inside of these different communities and try to understand that. I think for most small businesses, they want to move faster and they want to just get new customers. And so then I suggest looking at the traffic that is coming off of your advertising and your organic presence. You can measure that directly and see what traffic you’re getting. And then ultimately, I look at the conversions and the new customers.

that you’ve converted and the purchases that you can drive. So as part of the reporting, you have access to all of that to go to instrument it. And then based on your campaign, what you’re trying to achieve, that’s actually the key thing is a lot of times businesses show up and they haven’t crystallized. What am I actually trying to do with this campaign and making sure the creative ties to that? But having that really clear and then looking at the appropriate stats for that is really what I recommend.

John Jantsch (17:22.879)

Yeah, yeah, Right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:33.835)

So you mentioned the word creative. Is there a form of creative, you know, maybe that’s a little more tongue in cheek, a little more, or a little more cynical or, you know, just rather than just the traditional, we’re the best, bye from us.

Jim Squires (17:46.382)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there’s lots of memes on Reddit, definitely. You can play into that, and some brands really do that. My advice on the creative is not unlike advice you would give a friend is be yourself on this. And so if you are a really tongue in cheek, kind of clever brand, then that should come out in your creative. If you’re not, and you’re doing

John Jantsch (17:50.093)

Right.

John Jantsch (18:01.695)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jim Squires (18:12.858)

You know, B2B is huge on the platform. And so if you’re doing some, somebody’s B2B, that’s more serious and that you feel like that’s actually not your thing. you don’t want to show up on Reddit and then start doing that. Cause that stands out as well. So I always like to have the, what, what, what are you as a brand? What do you stand for? What are you trying to communicate? And then have that tie in versus trying to, change yourself, to try to fit in or, or feel like it’s reddity or something that’s, that’s, that’s going to fit in there.

John Jantsch (18:35.904)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it’s probably no, no faster way to fail than to try to be something you’re not right. Right. So one of the things that we’ve seen over the last couple of years, you know, ties into AI ties into zero click, you know, searches, now is that, advice we’re giving people is like it or not. You’ve probably got to be a few more places where people are choosing to get their information and hang out.

Jim Squires (18:44.866)

That’s right. As people in life or on platforms. Yes, exactly.

John Jantsch (19:08.737)

And it’s not always search engines. How have you seen that impact Reddit or have you? guess I should ask first. Yeah.

Jim Squires (19:09.005)

Yeah.

Jim Squires (19:13.186)

Yeah, mean, it’s absolutely it’s a great it’s a great point. mean, there is a one one thing that is interesting about Reddit is that it has a lot of unduplicated reach. So people that are on Reddit that are on Facebook or Instagram or other other places. And so that is that’s counterintuitive because these other platforms are so big. But there actually are a lot of people that are on those other platforms. So being able

John Jantsch (19:38.581)

Well, and I suspect trust has a lot to do with it.

Jim Squires (19:42.562)

Yes, what they look at, that’s a great point. mean, people, it’s anonymous as we talked about before, people are sharing their unvarnished real opinions. And so people trust that because they’re enthusiastic. Yeah. So I think that ability to get to customers that you can’t get to on other platforms is something really to consider and think about when you’re looking at it.

John Jantsch (19:43.553)

Or lack thereof. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:08.651)

Yes.

Jim Squires (20:08.812)

And so, yeah, so I think it does, that’s one of the things on why you would want to branch out. The other reason is that you have on all the different platforms, people are in different mindsets and they’re doing different things, which really affects what they may want to be purchasing or the decisions they may want to be making. So for example, on most platforms, targeting based on demo is really the standard.

John Jantsch (20:38.079)

Yeah.

Jim Squires (20:38.274)

If you were targeting me on another platform, you’re going to know that I live in San Francisco. I’m in my forties. you may know, you may know where I work. You know, there’s like certain things that you know about, about me. Well, you wouldn’t know that, know, on Reddit is that I’m really into mountain biking and that I’m in the market right now to get a, a, a heavy duty, bike rack for my car that can hold four bikes. Cause I want to have my kids and my wife be able to go with, with me.

John Jantsch (20:50.315)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:55.477)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:06.241)

Mmm… Yeah.

Jim Squires (21:08.002)

and that it can go long distances up into the mountains. You wouldn’t know that on another platform. And so that’s the different dimension. And so as a business, you wanna be where your customers are and you wanna be where they are making purchase decisions. We always say that conversations drive decisions. And so people are making those decisions through the process. That’s what I encourage.

John Jantsch (21:21.835)

Yes.

John Jantsch (21:27.553)

Yeah. And I certainly notice a lot of, anybody got advice on, know, kind of post, which is pretty high buyer intent, right? Um, yeah. So by the way, the Thule hitch rack, I swear by it. That’s the way I would go. That’s the way I have gone. and, and, and so now, now we need to talk about your, your, your setup on your bike. Uh, I’m a, I’m a Santa Cruz guy myself. Okay. Awesome.

Jim Squires (21:34.318)

That’s right.

Jim Squires (21:39.162)

Is that the way to go? Okay. Okay, that’s enough. I’m down to three right now.

Jim Squires (21:50.401)

I’m a Santa Cruz guy also, so I’ll get to 50-10, yes.

John Jantsch (21:54.461)

Awesome. There’s probably a Santa Cruz subreddit or at least a mountain bike subreddit.

Jim Squires (21:57.806)

They’re 100 % there. I was going to ask you, do you spend time on Reddit? How much do you spend phone?

John Jantsch (22:02.825)

Yeah, we have the, have, we do a lot of training of fractional CMOs and marketing consultants and agencies. So we participate in a few of those conversations for sure. Yeah.

Jim Squires (22:13.966)

Okay, there’s a lot of great small business communities, small business marketers. And so you can kind of as business use it in multiple ways. You’re using it to get to your customers and potential customers. And then you’re also using it for your own benefit for advice and understanding how to run your business along with other small business owners.

John Jantsch (22:35.391)

Yeah. And I mentioned that’s actually a pretty, pretty good way to start getting engaged is go in there and just start asking questions, right? mean, of stuff you truly want to know, that probably is going to create some engagement all on its own. Cause people love to give answers. Yeah.

Jim Squires (22:41.806)

Yep, definitely.

Jim Squires (22:48.774)

That’s exactly right. There’s nothing when you, and I also encourage people to say, people to when they start using it, when you do that first post and people start up voting it and you get literally karma points, that’s what we call it. So it shows you feel like, wow, I just added something of value to the universe. I’m getting these karma points. It feels really good. It’s like you’re contributing to this community. It’s a nice feeling.

John Jantsch (23:06.261)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, Jim, I want to thank you for something by the duct tape marketing podcast. is there someplace you invite people to connect with you? Obviously we’ve been talking about Reddit, reddit.com. we got a special for you listeners, a duct tape 500 to get some ad spend. Is there anywhere else you’d want people to connect with you?

Jim Squires (23:30.382)

We have a young on on Reddit, of course, I’m Jim at reddit.com. I’m happy to connect with people and and yeah, just it’s great great being here I’m a fan of the the podcast and love what what you do with small businesses. So thank you for having me

John Jantsch (23:47.381)

Thanks so much again. Hopefully we’ll run into you. I’ve got a daughter that lives out in the Bay area, so maybe we’ll run into you one of these days out on the road. Awesome. Take care. Thanks.

Jim Squires (23:53.666)

I would love that. I would love that. Thanks, John. Take care. Bye-bye.


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Weekend Favs March 1st

Weekend Favs March 1st written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.

I don’t go into depth about the finds, but I encourage you to check them out if they sound interesting. The photo in the post is a favorite for the week from an online source or one I took on the road.

  • Outranking.io is an AI SEO tool that helps create and optimize content to rank higher on search engines. invitations, and a sleek, modern interface.

  • Narrato is an AI content workspace that helps with content creation, optimization, and collaboration.

  • GrowthBar is an AI SEO tool that provides keyword research, content outlines, and competitor analysis.

These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Connect with me on Linkedin!

If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.

Why Selling Less Could Be the Key to Earning More

Why Selling Less Could Be the Key to Earning More written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Chuck Blakeman

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Chuck Blakeman, a successful entrepreneur, business advisor, and author of Sell Less, Earn More. Chuck has built 13 businesses across 10 industries and has worked with top companies like Google, Microsoft, and Apple. His approach to business growth challenges the traditional sales mindset, proving that relationship marketing and trust-based sales strategies can generate more revenue than aggressive selling.

During our conversation, Chuck shared powerful insights on why selling less can actually lead to earning more. He explains how business owners can shift away from outdated sales techniques and instead focus on client acquisition through relationships, referrals, and networking. His strategies help entrepreneurs break free from transactional selling and build sustainable, long-term business success.

Chuck Blakeman’s fresh take on business development and sales strategy provides a clear roadmap for entrepreneurs looking to earn more with less selling. By prioritizing relationships, referrals, and trust, business owners can ditch aggressive sales tactics and create a more sustainable and enjoyable way to grow their businesses.

Key Takeaways:

  • Stop Selling, Start Serving – The best way to grow your business is by building relationships and providing value, not pushing sales.
  • Leverage Your Existing Network – Your best clients and referrals often come from people you already know, not cold calls or ads.
  • Trust-Based Sales Work Better – Consumers prefer buying from businesses they trust. Building trust leads to higher conversion rates.
  • The Role of Recency and Frequency – Staying top of mind through consistent, value-driven communication is key to effective small business marketing.
  • Find the Right Partnerships – Instead of chasing individual clients, connect with “lumberjacks”—people who already have access to your ideal customers.
  • Shift from Pain Points to Joy Points – Traditional sales focuses on problems; instead, focus on helping customers achieve their goals and aspirations.

Chapters:

  • [00:09] Introducing Chuck Blakeman
  • [02:27] What Does Sell Less, Earn More Mean?
  • [03:35] Why Do Business Owners Hate Selling?
  • [06:40] Serve. Don’t Sell.
  • [013:54] Staying Recent and Frequent
  • [15:21] The Four Quadrants of Relationship Marketing
  • [17:21] Getting Started in Relationship Marketing
  • [18:54] Relationship Marketing on Modern Platforms

More About Mike Ganino: 



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John Jantsch (00:00.776)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Chuck Blakeman. He’s a successful entrepreneur, bestselling author, TEDx speaker and business advisor. built 13 businesses across 10 industries on four continents and has worked with companies like Google, Microsoft and Apple. Today we’re going to talk about his new book, Sell Less, Earn More.

Double your income in 90 days with people you already know. Sounds like an amazing promise. Chuck, welcome to the show.

Chuck (00:32.908)

Thanks, John. Those things always sound like obituaries to me.

John Jantsch (00:35.444)

Well, I’ve been doing this a long time and somebody found one of mine that like went back to second grade. It was really painful. at any rate, you know, I want to talk about the book, of course, but I can’t pass over the 13 businesses, 10 industries, four continents. Do you have like the two minute version of what all that was?

Chuck (00:56.738)

Sure, yeah. In high school, was left-handed, right-brained, ADHD and dyslexic, and they thought I was stupid. They wanted me to be a tinsmith because nobody knew what ADHD and dyslexic was back then. So I went into the Army. While I was in the Army, I stumbled into doing something for somebody else, and they paid me. And fast forward 45 years later, I had started 13 businesses and 10 industries on four continents. And so, yeah, I guess I have something to offer. But when I graduated from high school, I literally thought I’d be the only kid who wouldn’t get a job.

John Jantsch (01:26.708)

Well, so what tell us about at least one of those exits. I mean, is it a, you have a, do you have a good sexy story or were they all just all just meat and potatoes?

Chuck (01:34.382)

Yeah, now I’ll give you, everybody has good sexy stories. So I’ll give you the ugly one because nobody ever gives us, we built a business that we bought it for a million. It was pretty much done. It had been losing business for 10 years. We bought it for a million and we grew it to nine and a half million in two years and had to sell it in a fire sale. Because I didn’t understand that when you, the faster you grow, the less money you have. I just assumed that the faster you grow, the more money you have. No, it’s called cashflow.

John Jantsch (01:58.982)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Chuck (02:03.822)

So I had, you know, the books, I’ve written four books now and the books I’ve read, I same most of them. This is not a book I wrote, this is a life I lived, you you just bleed over this stuff. So that was one of them. And then we had some more successful stories than that one.

John Jantsch (02:13.348)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (02:19.738)

Awesome. Well, go into the title of the book, sell less earn more sort of counterintuitive a little bit. You want to explain kind of what the core concept you’re trying to get across there?

Chuck (02:30.638)

Yes, John, people have accused me of being counterintuitive and I realized I’m actually not, counter logical. It doesn’t make sense, but intuitively it does make sense. It’s really for this book I wrote because I’m a business owner and I’m a business owner’s advocate and I do all kinds of stuff with business owners. This is the anti-sales book specifically written for business owners, not for salespeople. And these are business owners who are looking for a permanent cure to the common cold call. You know, if you want to stop selling,

John Jantsch (02:36.072)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:50.066)

Yeah.

Chuck (03:00.462)

and still earn more. This is the right book for you. So we teach people to do the things I did, because I didn’t like selling. It was a rude awakening for me to wake up one morning. If you’re making chairs and they’re piling up in your basement, you figure out, oh no, I actually have to sell these darn things. And you end up doing something you didn’t want to do. Very few business owners go into business to want to sell. So we teach them how to get out of sales and to stop doing it by building relationships with people they already know.

John Jantsch (03:15.828)

Right, right.

John Jantsch (03:31.252)

So for the, you you hit on a very key point. A lot of people didn’t go into business because they were great at selling and actually end up saying, I hate that part of it. Is there a reason they hated and does it really kind of lie in the way that sales is traditionally thought about and experienced and taught?

Chuck (03:49.102)

Yeah, I love your book and I love your approach to things. Absolutely. We inherited this funny thing from the industrial age called selling. Before the factory system, we produced what we needed. By 1850, most factories were producing way more than they needed. So they had to invent selling to sell you stuff you didn’t need. And we call it stabbing strangers with your business card. You’re doing all this kind of crazy stuff to try and gin up sales that people don’t need. Welcome to consumerism.

John Jantsch (03:57.417)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:11.806)

Yeah.

Chuck (04:18.74)

Absolutely. goes back to the whole idea that we we were sold this bill of goods, target marketing, selling to strangers, pitching pain points. Why don’t we find somebody’s joy point instead? A cold calls, know, cold calls, the conversation. This is my favorite. hear this all the time. I can, someone very proudly will say to me, I contacted my database. Why don’t you connect with a few people you know?

John Jantsch (04:26.398)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (04:42.216)

Right.

Chuck (04:47.374)

There’s a message in those two statements. One is transactional and the other is relational. So we’ve inherited a transactional view of business and sales is the worst aberration of that.

John Jantsch (04:50.324)

Sure.

John Jantsch (05:00.116)

So I work with lot of consultants, agencies that are, you know, they need three or four more clients or maybe they’re just getting started. And they’re very drawn to the, can have a thousand emails and I can automate a funnel and I can use AI to contact all these people. And I do the same thing. I say, why don’t you just pick up the phone and call five people and see what happens. But people don’t want to do that. They’d rather sit through agonizing days of setting up a funnel.

Chuck (05:18.83)

You

John Jantsch (05:27.208)

you know, then to actually reach out. how do you get people past that?

Chuck (05:30.658)

Yes, so would I. I mean, most business owners, they don’t want to talk to strangers. They love talking to customers, but they don’t want to talk to strangers. Go to networking events. Nobody wants to do that. So how do we get them past the idea? Well, they get themselves past it. Usually they come to the end of themselves either in time or in money because it takes a bucket load of money and time to get all that stuff moving for you. There’s two ways to find clients.

John Jantsch (05:55.956)

Yeah, yeah.

Chuck (05:59.926)

You can buy them, which is extremely expensive in time and money, or you can pick up the phone and say hello to people. But the key here, John, for me is I’m not asking you to go find people you don’t know that I hate that. What if you could go to a friend and talk to them? call it finding your lumberjacks. What if you, instead of going to the networking forest and finding the next tree and doing all the seasoning you have to do in that relationship, what if you found somebody who’d been to the forest?

John Jantsch (06:12.116)

Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chuck (06:28.448)

and had 20 years worth of trees in their database, and they could see the value of giving their customers to you. Make friends with that person you already know and show them the benefit, and off you go.

John Jantsch (06:39.346)

Yeah, yeah. So, so…

There are lot of people that that started business and, you know, they really, again, I coach them. was like, look at your contacts in your database. That’s your, like, you got a hundred people in there. Probably that’s where you start. But then they kind of come to this point of like, yeah, okay. They know me, but like, how do I warm them up? How do I get, how do I get a conversation that actually has something to do with maybe them purchasing or maybe them referring? How do you, how do you do that? How do you get that, that contact who’s not really expecting you to call them and talk to you about your new business?

Chuck (07:12.486)

Yeah, the first, the overriding principle of the book, Sell Less Earn More is serve, don’t sell, which you’re all over that. And we teach people specific ways to get involved in that. We have the four buying questions. When you meet with someone individually, I challenge business owners to never talk about their business again in a one-to-one unless they are asked. And almost always I’m asked because I have four buying questions where I’m,

John Jantsch (07:18.664)

Yeah. Yeah.

Chuck (07:41.888)

asking them about things that have nothing to do with business. I’m showing interest as a human being. And you know, trust is our number one asset. If you don’t have trust, you’re done. So asking for buying questions, how did you get into this business? Where is it taking you? What do you want out of it? And just simple things like that will give them the idea that maybe this person actually cares about me as a human being. The guard goes down. Jeffrey Gitmer made this famous, but was in 1930s. People were saying nobody wants to buy.

Nobody wants to be sold, everybody wants to buy. The four buying questions flip the script. Don’t talk about your business. Ask them about them as human beings or about their business. Show interest. know, Stephen Covey, seek first to understand rather than be understood. I didn’t make this stuff up. But we get all that and we all say, I understand, but we don’t do it.

John Jantsch (08:29.555)

Yeah.

Chuck (08:35.447)

What if we actually went in with four buying questions and we didn’t we never we never talked about our business again Unless we were asked I guarantee you will make more money

John Jantsch (08:44.436)

Do you want to share those? I mean, are they set questions or they it’s really.

Chuck (08:47.438)

Yeah, there’s some questions. they’re really different for individuals, based on whether you’re talking to consumers or businesses. I’ll give you the business to business version. Past is the first question. So you can say something like, so tell me, John, what motivated you to leave your job and get into this business? That’s the past. That’s something John hasn’t thought about for years. It serves John. Why in the world did I do this? then the second one is exactly.

John Jantsch (09:11.604)

I couldn’t get a job, that’s why.

Chuck (09:15.79)

And the second one is the future. You got that right. The second one is the future. So John, if this is why you got into business, what do you want out of it? What’s your personal long-term desire for this thing? Most business owners never do that. They just figure out, if I make a bucket load of money, somehow I’ll be happy. And we know it doesn’t work. So that serves them to ask that question. And then the third question is present. So past, future, and then present. If this is why you got into it and this is what you want out of it, what’s the one thing?

We call it bottlenecks. What’s the one thing standing in your way right now to get you to that place that you want to be when you say, this business has really served me? Most business owners are too busy in the day to day to even think about what is the one strategic thing I need to do? I need more customers. I need more space. I need better training. What is the one thing that’s holding me back right now? And then the third, fourth one, if you ever get to, because by then usually they’re asking you questions. But if you get to the fourth one, the fourth one is, John, who’s your perfect client?

John Jantsch (10:10.568)

Right.

Chuck (10:10.794)

And how could I find, because I want to know who that is so I can send you some of those. So those are the four buying questions. My friend John was a wealth manager. He took our training. We have we’ve been doing this for 20 years. He took our our fast track sales business development training course. And he had at the time he started he had 2200 clients and he was taking home a quarter million dollars a year. Now he has under 20 clients and he takes home way over a million dollars a year.

John Jantsch (10:37.224)

Yeah, yeah.

Chuck (10:38.062)

because he took the four buying questions and he started using that instead of, me show you what I got. Stop me when you see something like, I got something up the sleeve. got something up. Nobody cares.

John Jantsch (10:44.66)

Yeah. So tell me, how much permission do you need for those questions? And the reason I ask that is, you know, I have a lot of what I would, I mean, we all now have very, we all have networks of people who we know, but you know, we’ve never met, we’re connected on LinkedIn, maybe, you know. And so then I get that question where somebody says, what are you most excited about? I’m like,

Chuck (11:03.426)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:12.296)

I’m not telling you what I’m excited about. I mean, how much permission do we need to get into what might feel a little more personal?

Chuck (11:19.406)

Well, and that is an intuitive question because you have to read the person across from you and say, is this a person who gets excited about sharing that stuff? So you might have to go a little slower. But in general, I’ve never found anybody who didn’t want to talk about themselves in some way. So even if they, when you ask them why did you get into this business, they won’t tell you because they couldn’t find a job. But they will tell you some other really good stuff about why they got into it because then that’s fine. So tell me whatever you want.

John Jantsch (11:34.194)

Yeah.

Chuck (11:47.81)

This can sound like an interrogation if you don’t respond. So I’m always ready to say, well, let me tell you how I got into business and with somebody who’s uncomfortable, I’ll do that first. And in one of them, I will say, because I couldn’t get a job. And it just opens them up. So I have to be transparent so they will.

John Jantsch (11:50.568)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I think you really hit on this and not everybody has the emotional quotient for this, quite frankly, but the whole goal is to serve, is not to sell, right? And if you’re coming from that point of view, it eventually comes across, doesn’t it?

Chuck (12:19.842)

Yeah, know, people think I make some of this stuff up and then I remind them, Zig Ziglar, 1970s, you know, if you help enough other people get to their goals, you’ll get to yours. You really believe that we all give lip service to these things, but I can show you hundreds, thousands of business owners who have done these things have actually finally actually practiced this with passion and found that, yeah, you know, it actually does work if I just serve other people. I had a one-to-one with a woman once who I was going to do my dog and pony show and she

John Jantsch (12:24.466)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chuck (12:49.922)

She showed up and said, hey, I gotta find a babysitter. We just lost our babysitter for our 20th anniversary and it’s four hours from now. We spent 45 minutes finding her a babysitter because that’s what she needed. She didn’t need my dog and pony show. I never talked to her again. A year later, her sister called me and she became a client for two years. I made a lot of money from that meeting because I served the other person. Do we really believe that that’s the way to go?

John Jantsch (13:00.808)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:15.144)

Yeah. And I think it really takes, it really takes not only that serving, but a long-term mindset too, right? I you, you, you, you have seen, this play out. You knew at some time in the future, this babysitting job was going to pay off, didn’t you?

Chuck (13:20.778)

It… You got it Johnny.

Chuck (13:30.274)

Well, and I know your stuff well, but I don’t know if you actually ever said this, but you live it out. You are a you live out the idea of long term decision making, making decisions based on what will actually help you in the long term, not today. And boy, when we take on that that approach, it is actually harder for the first year because that’s what people think. I’m going to start to doubt if I actually take note, you’d be surprised. But boy, is it freeing to actually think in the long term and to work with people based on what is their long term

That’s my definition of business love, is putting the interest of the other person, the long-term best interest of that person first.

John Jantsch (14:01.182)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:07.764)

So a lot of times when you’re having a conversation with your network, they don’t need anything today. They can’t think of anybody that they could refer you to. Where does this role of like staying top of mind recency frequency? mean, how, how big are part of that?

Chuck (14:19.042)

There you go. You just know that we use those two words, recency and frequency, to build any relationship, whether it’s with your dog, your pet orca whale, or your wife, or your friend, you need to be recent and frequent. How recently did you talk to me and how frequently? So we have to have drip systems and we have to have drip systems they actually want to open.

John Jantsch (14:35.304)

Yeah.

Chuck (14:42.594)

So it’s not about me. I have a realtor who sends me something on a regular basis and I open it because it’s always interesting, fun stuff that I would want to hear. It’s not how great am I as a realtor. And so we have to figure that out and do the recency and frequency. And you put together a simple little drip system. We got Microsoft as a client, $3 million a year client, because for a year and a half, I tickled the guy at Microsoft who was my contact.

John Jantsch (14:42.696)

Yeah, right.

Chuck (15:09.23)

with everything from a phone call to a press release to once in a while coming out to visit him. And he called me one day and said, hey, I got this press release from you yesterday. I’m glad I did, because I’d forgotten all about you. It’s like, I’ve been pinging you forever, but if you’re not recent and frequent, it’s not going to work. So you got to have that as part of your deal.

John Jantsch (15:20.648)

Right.

John Jantsch (15:25.704)

Plus, mean, you we’re all overloaded with information. So it’s like, what, what, why one, why did one thing work? Right. It’s because they were ready to hear it that day. Right. Yeah. So you have actually, and I love it when people have frameworks for quadrants of marketing that you talk about, when it comes to relationship marketing, you want to kind of unpack that idea for people.

Chuck (15:28.397)

Yes.

Chuck (15:32.94)

Yeah. Yes.

Chuck (15:47.202)

Yeah, so quadrant number one is advertising. That’s what the big boys use. And quadrant number two is direct mail. Those two are more, or direct marketing. Those two are more the purview of people with a lot of money and not a lot of time. So you can buy a gecko or a duck or a funny comedian and put them on the airways for millions and millions of dollars for years. And we just love, we fall in love with that insurance company because we fell in love with fill in the blank, that you the guy.

John Jantsch (15:50.792)

Yep.

John Jantsch (15:56.254)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (16:15.57)

Yeah.

Chuck (16:16.952)

Good luck with that. I don’t have that kind of money as a business owner. And the second one is direct marketing. That one I can do a little bit more of and a lot more of in some ways, but still it’s expensive. The third quadrant is public relations. We told a guy who wanted to do rugby vacations, set up rugby vacations with a guy and his wife and 30 guys and go on a 10 day vacation in Brazil and play two or three rugby games. We told him, go kick a rugby ball across America.

He figured out he could get $150,000 in sponsors, and it would take him like three months to kick the ball across, and he’d get news in every town. It’s paid marketing if you do it right. But the one that really works for us is what we call, everybody calls relationship marketing. That’s the one that costs the least amount of money and the most amount of time. But I say this all the time, and you say it in your stuff, you just don’t say it with this phrase, the closer you get to a hug,

John Jantsch (16:55.694)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (17:02.088)

Yeah, yeah.

Chuck (17:15.202)

the more likely you are to sell something. So sit across the table from somebody and watch what happens. And again, don’t do it one customer at a time. Find the lumberjack who has all those customers who will just open their database to you. You got 100 people in your database, you’re going to wear them out. He or she has 300, and you have two or three of those, you got a thousand person database. Let’s just do it that way. Make friends with a few people.

John Jantsch (17:15.432)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:31.368)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:39.796)

So let’s say I am a somebody getting started maybe in a new business. And I come to you and I say, look, I want to get this. I love what you’re talking about. I want to get this going. Like what’s the checklist? Like what are the 10 things I need to do to, to kind of set this in motion? I know it’s not going to happen overnight, but how do I set it in motion?

Chuck (17:59.15)

Yeah, so we have a, these are all things I did to build my businesses. We didn’t make anything up to sell on the internet or any of that kind of stuff. We just feel like people need a specific set of tools. So we talk about what we call the lumberjack buying system. It’s a simple way to alliterate the three different places in your database that a person might be living. They’re either a new contact or you’re in a conversation or they’re on the fire or they’re a new client.

John Jantsch (18:07.08)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (18:16.456)

Mm-hmm.

Chuck (18:27.758)

And then things like gold veins, where you can show up on a regular basis and you’ll see the same people over and over again, very different than networking. And they’re all the ideal clients of yours. Catalyst events, tier three listening, the four buying questions, the four walking in commitments. So there’s some mindset things that people have to do to shift out of the industrial age mindset guilt trip that we’ve been giving, you stabbing people with their business cards. That’s mindset stuff. And then there’s a few simple tools.

John Jantsch (18:36.243)

Yeah.

Eh-heh-heh.

Chuck (18:57.486)

that people have. We have a 10 week training course that we use and there’s about six tools that we give people over those 10 weeks. And you don’t have to use all of them. This is one of the other problems with sales is that we give people these really rigid sales processes that are built for nobody or 70 % and not for me.

John Jantsch (19:08.092)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:16.744)

How do some of the newish, been around for a while now, but newish platforms like LinkedIn, how do they play into this game?

Chuck (19:27.551)

Yeah, well, you know, 10 years ago, somebody in one of our courses said, I’m going to use LinkedIn to develop my relationships. Right after I had said the closer you get to a hug, the more likely you to tell something. but she went in 10 weeks, she doubled her income by just talking to people on LinkedIn that she knew in alphabetical order, and she didn’t get past E.

John Jantsch (19:39.132)

Yeah. Right, right.

John Jantsch (19:52.446)

Yeah.

Chuck (19:53.166)

Now, if you looked at what she had, she had a lot of good existing relationships on LinkedIn. So it wasn’t a cold call. She was talking to people she already knew. So it doesn’t matter what medium you’re on. I made $100,000 plus in about a year and a half off of Twitter 15 years ago. So you can do that, but it’s still the same principles. Nothing changes. The closer you get to a hug, the more likely you are to sell something. Serve, don’t sell. Tier three listening, it’s all the same.

John Jantsch (19:58.612)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:22.708)

Chuck, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by. there a place you’d invite people to connect to you to learn more about sell less earn more?

Chuck (20:29.516)

Yeah, they can find it on Amazon, sell less, more. They can also go to 3to5club.com, the number 3-T-O-5 club.com, or just find me chuck at cranksetgroup.com. I also have a web page, chuckblakeman.com. So any of that stuff, if you look up Chuck Blakeman, you’re going to find me, unfortunately, if that’s your thing.

John Jantsch (20:31.614)

me.

John Jantsch (20:48.724)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road,

Chuck (20:55.0)

Look forward to it, John. Thank you.


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The Zero-Click Internet: What It Means for Your Marketing Strategy

The Zero-Click Internet: What It Means for Your Marketing Strategy written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Rand Fishkin

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Rand Fishkin, co-founder and CEO of SparkToro, an audience research software company. Rand is a well-known expert in search engine optimization (SEO) and digital marketing, with deep insights into the evolving landscape of Google search and the rise of the zero-click internet.

During our conversation, Rand explained how zero-click searches—where users find answers directly on Google without clicking on external links—are reshaping SEO strategy, content marketing, and online visibility. With 60% of searches now ending without a click, businesses must rethink their marketing strategy to reach audiences where they already engage—whether on social media, Google’s own properties, or other digital platforms.

Rand’s insights emphasize the need for marketers to adapt to zero-click trends, build a presence across multiple channels, and rethink traditional SEO trends to succeed in today’s digital landscape.

Key Takeaways:

  • Zero-click searches are growing – 60% of Google searches now end without a click, changing how businesses gain online traffic.
  • SEO strategy must evolve – Instead of chasing organic traffic, brands should focus on influencing audiences where they are—on social platforms, communities, and third-party sites.
  • Google’s algorithm prioritizes engagement – Google is keeping more users within its ecosystem, using featured snippets, AI-generated answers, and instant results.
  • Content marketing needs a shift – Creating content that thrives on Google, social media, and other platforms without requiring clicks is the new game.
  • Online marketing is more than traffic – Success is about brand visibility, trust, and engagement rather than just website visits.

Chapters:

  • [00:09] Introducing Rand Fishkin
  • [01:07] What is Zero Click?
  • [02:11] How Has Zero Click Impacted Search
  • [06:33] How Should SEO Professionals Adapt?
  • [08:34] How Do Content-Reliant Businesses Survive?
  • [14:30] Is Google Dead?
  • [16:50] Making the Best of Attribution

More About Rand Fishkin: 

Check out Rand Fishkin’s Website
Connect with Rand Fishkin on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Want to elevate your marketing game? AdCritter pairs Connected TV ads with precise digital retargeting to drive real results. Discover how their full-funnel strategy can help your business grow smarter. Let them know Duct Tape Marketing sent you, and you’ll get a dollar-for-dollar match on your first campaign! Learn more at adcritter.com.



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John Jantsch (00:00.972)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Rand Fishkin. He’s a co-founder and CEO of Spark Toro, an audience research software company and indie game developer at Snack Bar Studio. We probably ought to talk about indie games, Passionate about helping marketers, he shares insights through writing speaking and his book Lost and Founder, previously co-founded Moz and inbound.org and co-authored the Art of SEO.

He’s going to talk about, we are going to talk today about zero click. something that I said off air, you were probably getting tired of talking about, but still a lot of people want to hear about. Welcome to

Rand Fishkin (00:43.672)

Great to be here, John. No, I don’t think people are tired of talking about zero click. I think there’s a lot of people who, don’t totally know what it is and B, are feeling the effects of it, even if they’re not super into the tactical and strategic world of zero click.

John Jantsch (00:54.092)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:00.216)

So having said that, maybe we ought to define that’s what we’re talking about, right? And maybe even talk about, mean, you’ve been following Google for, I don’t know, since Google was born, right? So, you know, when did it start showing up?

Rand Fishkin (01:13.356)

Yeah. So, the term I believe was coined by initially Gabriel Weinberg at DuckDuckGo. That was the first instance I could find of it. In 2011, Gabriel described Google as having these zero click searches and zero click answers. So this is the first sort of appearance of a zero click concept in the marketing world. And a few years later, I did a study, with Jumpshot, which was, which is a now defunct

clickstream data provider. And JumpShot worked with me to see what percent of all Google searches ended without a click. Essentially, they stayed inside Google’s ecosystem either by opening up the Google Maps app or getting their answer right at the top of the results through those instant answers or featured snippets or now AI overviews.

John Jantsch (02:04.896)

Right, right, right. So, I guess maybe you’re going to say it. The zero click meaning that somebody goes and they don’t go away. They get their answer and they don’t leave Google, right? Zero.

Rand Fishkin (02:15.918)

So that, yeah, and that was the initial idea of like, oh, there’s these zero click searches and search marketing might be changing as a result. And maybe we should think about rather than trying to get traffic, simply provide the answer to the searcher, right? To the user. In 2019, Google answered just under half of all searches without a click. like 49 % or something. Fast forward to last year, I just did this study again with Datos.

John Jantsch (02:26.253)

Yeah.

Rand Fishkin (02:45.07)

And that number is now 60%. So 60 % of searches are answered without a click, which as a user is super convenient. And as a publisher is terrifying.

John Jantsch (02:57.026)

Well, that goes to a point. mean, there are some that are saying this is an evil plot by Google, but really it’s like behavior, right? I mean, it’s like, this is what the user wants. I know as somebody who’s trying to get a quick, I want to know what time the ball game starts. You know, I don’t need to go to ESPN’s website, right? And read the history of football before I get the time, right?

Rand Fishkin (03:17.326)

That’s exactly right. If you want to know how old Paul Rudd is, or you want to see which channel you can watch SNL 50 on, or you’re trying to figure out what are the ingredients in Moroccan spices, you know what? Google can just answer those things for you, and it is incredibly convenient. So zero-click searches started with Google, but they did not end there. Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Reddit.

YouTube, TikTok, Slack, every single platform realized that they could keep more people on their websites and their platforms if they stopped sending traffic out. And so, Twitter was one of the early adoptees of this. algorithm, this is probably 2016, 17, their algorithm started biasing against links. If you included a link in a tweet, Twitter would limit the reach of that tweet.

John Jantsch (03:47.746)

Tick tock.

John Jantsch (04:00.716)

Yeah.

Rand Fishkin (04:15.542)

Substantially compared to a tweet that did not contain a link that’s true on Facebook as well It’s true on linkedin as well. You can see it in subreddits where moderators and reddit themselves started down voting and and stopping the promotion of Reddit submissions that contained a link youtube started Minimizing the description field so that it would hide any url external url link that would take you off of youtube

John Jantsch (04:40.961)

Ehh.

Rand Fishkin (04:43.31)

So every single platform is doing this over and over. And my colleague, Amanda Natividad, when she joined SparkToro, what was that, 2022, she sort of came up with this idea that zero click is not just about search, it’s about all platforms. The zero click internet is here. And as a result, the only thing to do is to create zero click content and do zero click marketing. Influence people in the places they’re already paying attention

John Jantsch (05:11.52)

Right. Yeah.

Rand Fishkin (05:12.876)

rather than demanding that they come to your platform and requiring traffic to be your only KPI.

John Jantsch (05:18.806)

Yeah. And, you know, lot of the people, the sky is falling, you know, looking at the results. was a pretty, sexy headline that HubSpot had lost 72 % of their traffic or something like that. But can we say that a percentage of that, maybe a large percentage was kind of garbage traffic anyway? I mean, it wasn’t intent traffic. was like, they published a listicle and somebody went to that cause they wanted the list, but they didn’t want anything to do with HubSpot.

Rand Fishkin (05:43.416)

Well, John, I don’t know if you did what I did as soon as I saw that headline, but I went and looked up HubSpot stock price and their latest earnings report. And guess what? Record highs, right? So HubSpot and a whole bunch of other platforms, I did a whole blog post and a video about this. They are indicative of a new trend that zero click marketing is.

John Jantsch (05:47.564)

Heheheh, Potter.

Yeah.

Rand Fishkin (06:11.424)

almost certainly at the head of, is traffic down, revenue up. If your traffic goes down, but your revenue goes up, should you be pissed at your marketing team? Or should you celebrate the fact that they are finding opportunities in a zero click internet world for your message and your influence to reach the right audience and attract the right customers? I think it’s the latter.

John Jantsch (06:34.56)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so you started to hint at what to do now. If you’re especially SEO folks, know, or I mean, they, they’d kind of dialed in the game, right? So now like, what’s the new game? I mean, for SEO folks, if you were advising a group of SEO folks, you know, talking, doing a keynote, you know, what would you be telling them that they need to be doing how they need to be changing their model?

Rand Fishkin (06:55.82)

Yeah, I’m actually, I’m giving a at SMX Munich to a couple thousand people next month. And the topic, John, you’ll like this is called, it’s the end of traffic as we know it. And I feel fine. And the basic premise here is that, look, if you’re an SEO, some of you will have no choice. Your boss, your team, your client.

John Jantsch (07:00.748)

Right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:09.474)

Yeah, great. That’s awesome.

Rand Fishkin (07:20.302)

They’re going to say, I don’t care what Rand Fishkin says. I don’t care what’s going on in Google. I don’t care about zero click marketing. You get me traffic. That’s your job. You know what? Okay. You’re going to have to focus on the few keywords that send traffic and sort of the 40 % of searchers that click and you know, the platforms that still do send some traffic, that kind of thing. But for everyone else, I would urge you to break out of this mindset that everything has to be about SEO, right? That the classic SEO is the only thing that you’re good at.

John Jantsch (07:45.484)

Yeah. Yeah.

Rand Fishkin (07:49.01)

SEOs, at least when I was an SEO, you know, seven years ago now, it was not just about ranking in Google, right? There was lots of things that you’d have to do as part of that. Things around accessibility of your website, sure, but also placement of content on third-party websites and pitching and essentially, yeah, a public relations job, right? It is a PR job. You’re trying to create content and a message that people want to amplify and get that message amplified in the places they pay attention.

John Jantsch (08:06.68)

Authority, yeah, Yep, yep, yep, yep.

Rand Fishkin (08:19.638)

I’m not sure exactly what the industry is going to end up calling that. Maybe they’ll call it PR. Maybe they’ll call it the new form of influencer marketing. Maybe they’ll call it content placement or offsite content marketing. I don’t really care. I don’t care what that’s called. What I do care about is you should do it because it works.

John Jantsch (08:37.974)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think, you you made a point about why everybody’s so fixed on SEO. I think for a lot of SEO folks, it was easy, cheap traffic. And in some cases, easy, cheap conversions and business. And so I think we got lazy. And I think that to me, that was a big part of it. But what about that business that is all about trust and authority? Content was huge for them to drive, you know, folks to their website.

couldn’t buy ads, ads were useless to them. What is that business, like a professional services business? How do they survive in this

Rand Fishkin (09:13.038)

I look, I think whenever I realize my video is getting a little fuzzy and Riverside’s giving me a funny message about that, but my internet’s fast and my device is running fast, so I don’t know. I’m just gonna go and hope that the recording catches it correctly. The reality is when your business model gets disrupted, you either decide to embrace the change that’s coming,

John Jantsch (09:19.426)

Yeah.

Rand Fishkin (09:42.41)

Or you face the consequences. And I think the consequences are not nothing. It’s not all going to die. SEO is going to go away. That’s not what’s happening. It’s just going to become a lower growth rate industry or even a shrinking industry over time as CMOs and CEOs and boards of directors wake up to the fact that the opportunity in organic types of marketing might lie elsewhere, i.e. influencing people in the places where they already play.

John Jantsch (10:10.998)

Yeah. The new sexy term is AIO. How much do we need to pay attention to that?

Rand Fishkin (10:16.878)

it, it varies quite a bit. If you’re in B2B, especially B2B tech and you’re selling to other B2B techies, the answer is you probably need to pay some attention to it. There was a great report from SEM rush, recently where they looked at the clickstream data. like clickstream data a lot. think it really tells the story accurately.

They looked at 80 million different click streams of people who visited and used ChatGPT, and they analyzed what they did with the platform, the prompts that they put in, all that kind of stuff. What I found quite interesting there is 70 % of those prompts had no corollary at Google. So you could not perform the task that was asked of ChatGPT in Google’s ecosystem

John Jantsch (11:05.868)

Hmm.

Rand Fishkin (11:13.55)

outside of Gemini whatsoever, right? This is an AI type of task. It’s like saying how much market share is Microsoft Excel taking from Google search? What? None. Like that’s people are doing different things with that. Chat GPT is taking 30 % away from a search engine, right? Or, or adding it to it, right? Those are, those, those are people who are using it for that replacement thing. But I think the answer here is every single business.

John Jantsch (11:15.948)

Yes.

John Jantsch (11:35.436)

Right, yeah.

Rand Fishkin (11:43.2)

Every sector needs to figure out whether its customers and audience are using large language models and AI tools to perform search like tasks inside their specific ecosystem. you know, not to promote spark Toro, but I, I don’t know of another place you can do this, but you can inside spark Toro. what that’s what we do with clickstream data, right? You can go and you can search for, you know, my audience is science fiction writers or interior designers or.

you know, painters or landscaping professionals, or I want to find people who search for backyard gardens. And, Spartora will then tell you in the AI and tools section, which platforms they’re using and how much more or less than normal. So you could see, for example, I ran a search recently for, people who do custom decking, like for their backyards. They don’t use AI tools very much, right? That’s not, that’s not their goal, but.

John Jantsch (12:34.583)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (12:37.952)

Right, right, right.

Rand Fishkin (12:40.396)

If you look for people who are searching for B2B CRM software, well, yeah, they are using ChakGPT and Gemini and Kaggy and all these different AI tools, much more than average. You probably need to pay attention to large language model optimization.

John Jantsch (12:58.334)

That’s a great, great point. I’ve seen a real divide between the idea of local businesses versus national or B2B, like you mentioned, like that Decker, you know, that you talked about that’s, that’s fixing people’s homes. I mean, he’s probably got people in his geography or he or she that’s looking for them and you know, Google maps and some of those tools are still their friend, right?

Rand Fishkin (13:20.414)

Yeah, absolutely. this, I mean, I don’t know what to tell you, John. Like there’s, there’s still people who just as they did in 1720 or 1950 or 2001, their primary resource for which person am I going to use to build my deck is they ask their neighbor, they ask their friend, right? And that, is a source of influence that is influenceable via different means than, you know,

John Jantsch (13:41.59)

Yep. Yeah.

Rand Fishkin (13:50.072)

highway billboard or a Google search or an AI tool or a social media platform. And so your job as a marketer is to figure out the sources of your audience influence and be present in those places, hopefully commensurate with how much they use them.

John Jantsch (14:07.98)

Yeah. Yeah. And dedicated what limited resources you have to the best ones, right? Now, so another sexy headline is Google’s dead. So is their dominance, you know, is their dominance going to fade? mean, obviously, the cash cow depends on people going to their homepage and clicking on ads instead of getting answers.

Rand Fishkin (14:14.219)

Exactly.

Rand Fishkin (14:20.325)

you

Rand Fishkin (14:32.512)

Yeah. So, it’s funny. I was just asked about this by some reporters. and I don’t like to give opinion based answers here, right? Google’s getting worse. I ran this search and I got a bunch of junk in my results where 10 years ago when I ran this search, I used to get good stuff. I don’t like those types of anecdotal, replies and responses. I don’t trust them. The thing I trust is data at scale. So

What I would look at if I were a reporter trying to answer the question, is Google dying? Is Google getting worse? Is, are there more or less people searching on Google than there were last year at the same time? Are there more or fewer searches per searcher than there were last year at this time? The answer to both of those, according to some research that I hope to publish in the next couple of weeks actually, is no.

Google grew about 10 % in terms of searches per searcher last year, and it grew in terms of number of total searchers last year. You don’t have to believe me, by the way, or Datos’ numbers. If you prefer, you can look at what Sundar Pichay said in the earnings call, the Google earnings call two weeks ago. He said the same thing, and our data bears it out. I don’t always trust Google to tell us the truth, but in this case,

all the data sources agree, if Google is getting worse, then the only logical response is, well, if they’re getting worse, everything else, all the alternatives must be even worse because people are still using them more and more.

John Jantsch (16:10.616)

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think people under or forget, you know, they’re more than just that search box as well. You know, I pay Google a hundred bucks every month to use Gmail and Sheets and Slides and all those kinds of things too. they’re an ecosystem way beyond their ad network.

Rand Fishkin (16:31.244)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But, but I want to be clear, I’m not talking about their earnings report in terms of their dollar, you know, of, of growth. I’m talking about right growth in, in raw searches.

John Jantsch (16:38.38)

Yeah. Just searches, right? Yeah.

Yeah. So another topic that, and this is right up your alley, so I’m inviting you to talk about Spark Toro here, is that attribution is just getting harder and harder. And yet, as I listen to your talk, it’s more important maybe than ever. Like, where are your people hanging out and actually reading stuff and how do you find them? So how do you advise businesses to really kind of arm themselves with better attribution?

Rand Fishkin (17:12.578)

Gosh.

John Jantsch (17:14.168)

Oh, I asked a hard question. like that. Well, that was my entire intent, so I did well.

Rand Fishkin (17:16.416)

Well, here’s the problem, John. You’ve set me up once again to like tee up my own software and I really, try not to. But you know, you know, I don’t like to be self-promotional. Okay. First off, there are, there are several ways to do this. Some of them good, some of them bad. One of the ones that a lot of people use that I really don’t like is they do post-consumer surveys.

John Jantsch (17:30.874)

hahahahah

Rand Fishkin (17:45.998)

So this is, you you just bought this pair of shoes from Nike, Nike sends you an email and they ask you, how did you find us? Or they ask you at the end of the checkout process, you know, how did you learn about these shoes today? What made you buy from us? And people will give answers that are incomplete, often inaccurate. And if you’re a marketer, you’re only ever going to get answers from channels and sources that you already reach. So you will never know.

about the ones that didn’t send you traffic, right? This is a huge bias problem. I cannot recommend enough against asking people where they heard about you and then using that to determine your marketing budget. is just logic. You you have failed logic 101 in college and you’re going to get kicked out of the class.

John Jantsch (18:20.973)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:28.536)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:35.99)

Well, and you’re also going to pay Facebook a lot more money because everybody says they saw your Facebook ad, right?

Rand Fishkin (18:41.006)

It depends on the sector. So we tried this. of my, one of my favorite stories, John, is early in the spark after spark Charles launch, we tried this with one of our customers. We asked them, this is a consumer brand in the food industry. So they like sell a food product. I don’t have permission to mention who they are, but they sell a food product direct to consumers. And we said, Hey, can you try something for us? Would you put these two? think it was like Martha Stewart and I wasn’t Guy Fieri, but it was some other like.

notable food person in the food world. We asked them to put that in their dropdown list of places where people had heard about them. Yeah. Guess what, John? Those people had never mentioned the brand. They had never talked about them. And 30 % of the customers said, yeah, that’s where I heard about you. So just, you you’re getting terrible data, like absolutely terrible data. the, the second one, the one that I do.

John Jantsch (19:09.986)

Food. Foodie. Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:23.01)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:30.168)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rand Fishkin (19:38.072)

quite like is to look at, broadly speaking, if you use a competitive intelligence platform and you can see where traffic is going to your competitors, that can make reasonable sense, right? So similar web is a good resource for that. Obviously, Spark Toro offers that type of data as well from a competitive perspective. I think SEM rush, the folks I mentioned who did that research.

John Jantsch (19:51.32)

Hmm.

John Jantsch (19:55.81)

Yes.

Rand Fishkin (20:05.676)

I think they might have some of that in their platform, but it might be search centric. So be careful. You’re not just getting biased by Google stuff. and then the, you know, the absolute best one, the absolute best way to do this is learn lockpicking, get the home addresses of all your customers break into their houses, steal their own, get the phone unlock code, and then look at everything that they read, browse, watch, subscribe to follow that of course.

John Jantsch (20:25.016)

Yep.

Rand Fishkin (20:33.556)

super illegal, highly unethical. have, I, yeah, that’s right. Yeah. You got a lot of competition for that. but, but the next closest thing is essentially clickstream data, which is, you know, a panel of users and the providers look at every URL that’s visited. And then you can sort of, take a broad group of people and extrapolate what a general population does.

John Jantsch (20:36.066)

Plus, Alexa’s already doing it anyway, so.

Rand Fishkin (21:02.094)

That’s what we do at Spark Toro. so, you if you want to see, you can type in your website or a competitor’s website or a search term that people use in Google or, a descriptor that people use in their buys. And then you can see what websites, what topics, what social media platforms they use more or less than average. and that can, that can be a good way to sort of get a sense of, Hey, you know, lot of our customers are using.

I don’t read it and we’re not there at all. A lot of our customers are on TikTok or LinkedIn or Pinterest or they’re using ChatGPT or they’re using Gemini and we’re not in those places. We should probably be making investments there.

John Jantsch (21:35.702)

Yes.

John Jantsch (21:49.876)

Yeah. Well, Rand, we’re, we’ve run out of time. I appreciate you dropping by. Uh, we’ve mentioned sparktoro.com a couple of times anywhere else that you’d invite people to connect with you and learn more about your work.

Rand Fishkin (22:00.504)

Sure, well, you know, at the start of our chat today, you mentioned Snapbar Studio. So folks are interested in an indie video game where you get to play an Italian chef in the 1960s. You can check that out at snapbarstudio.com. And who isn’t? It’s not live yet, but give us about 18 months, and there’ll be an early access version on Steam.

John Jantsch (22:14.2)

And who isn’t?

John Jantsch (22:24.408)

Awesome, awesome. Again, I appreciate you taking a few moments and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days soon out there on the road.

Rand Fishkin (22:29.838)

Yeah, I look forward to it, John. Take care of yourself. Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (22:32.098)

All right, bye now.


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Weekend Favs February 22nd

Weekend Favs February 22nd written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.

I don’t go into depth about the finds, but I encourage you to check them out if they sound interesting. The photo in the post is a favorite for the week from an online source or one I took on the road.

  • Zcal is a scheduling tool that allows individuals and teams to book meetings effortlessly. Zcal offers a more personalized approach with features like branded booking pages, personalized meeting invitations, and a sleek, modern interface.
  • Sidekick AI helps users schedule meetings effortlessly by scanning emails for meeting requests and automatically proposing times based on availability. It also provides scheduling links for one-on-one or group meetings.
  • Clara is an AI-driven virtual assistant that schedules meetings via email conversations. It mimics human-like communication, coordinating with participants to find the best meeting times.

These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Connect with me on Linkedin!

If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.

The 7 Roles Every Small Business Owner Must Master (and How to Manage Them All)

The 7 Roles Every Small Business Owner Must Master (and How to Manage Them All) written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I discussed the many hats small business owners wear and how to manage them effectively. Running a business often feels like spinning plates—balancing leadership, sales, client management, and more. Without the right systems in place, entrepreneurs can quickly become overwhelmed.

I broke down the seven essential roles every small business owner must master and shared practical strategies for streamlining operations, leveraging automation tools, and using business delegation to scale efficiently. From marketing strategy to project management, these insights help entrepreneurs focus on business growth while reducing day-to-day chaos.

Mastering these small business management roles is key to scaling a business without burnout. By delegating, automating, and focusing on core priorities, entrepreneurs can build a more sustainable and profitable business.

Key Takeaways:

  • CEO Vision: Small business owners must take time to plan long-term goals and growth strategies to avoid getting stuck in daily tasks.
  • Sales & Marketing: Consistently generating leads and automating follow-ups ensures a steady pipeline of clients.
  • Strategic Planning: A repeatable marketing strategy helps differentiate your business and deliver measurable results.
  • Project & Client Management: Using productivity tools for entrepreneurs like Monday or Asana simplifies workflow and client communication.
  • Finance & Accounting: Outsourcing bookkeeping frees up time and ensures financial stability.
  • Time Management & Delegation: Leveraging virtual assistants for business and outsourcing for small businesses reduces workload while improving efficiency.
  • Automation & AI: Sales automation and business process automation help small business owners scale without increasing workload.

Chapters:

[00:26] Juggling Multiple Roles
[04:38] The CEO Role
[05:37] The Sales Person Role
[07:09] The Strategist Role
[08:46] The Project Manager Role
[09:49] The Marketing Role
[12:59] The Client Manager Role
[13:56] The 4-Prong Approach

 



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John Jantsch (00:00.866)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and no guest today, just me, solo show. Those of you out in TV land, see I’ve got my DTM hat wearing just for this solo show. So what are we gonna talk about today? Remember when I was a little kid, I went to the circus, probably many of you did as well. I think they still have it around. Anyway.

They had the elephants and the trapeze and all that stuff, right? But my favorite, always remember was like this guy that would have like seven or eight plates and you’d have them spinning on these long big sticks. You’ve probably seen somebody do that before as well. And you know, it’s just as one would start to drop, he’d get over there and get that one going again. And then he’d find another one that was getting ready to drop and he’d do that one again. you know, years later, I find that and maybe some of you can relate running a business is a lot like that, isn’t it?

feel like we’re constantly spinning plates. And there’s a reason for that. Unless you have 50 or 100 people working for you, you’ve probably got multiple roles. In fact, the typical small agency owner, marketing consultant, that’s who we work with. That’s who I want to talk with, talk about today. I would say that we’ve all got like seven roles that we have to do every single day, maybe or maybe a lot of them we’re not doing, but they still follow us, right? And so

I want to talk today about what those roles are, but then I want to spend some time focused on how we actually free ourselves from the chaos of that, of the, many of those roles. mean, there’s so many amazing tools today that we have available to us. mean, AI being one of them, of course, but a lot of automation tools that really can make life a lot easier.

There’s a couple other things, certainly delegation to VAs and things. So I’m going to cover all of those today. So let’s go with the seven roles, what they are first off. The first one is CEO. mean, whatever you call yourself, somebody’s got to have, somebody’s the leader, that’s probably you, has to have a vision for the business. so, and that’s a role that I see that doesn’t get played very often. But if we’re not looking up and occasionally saying what needs to happen or where do I want to be this time next year?

John Jantsch (02:12.75)

be really, really simple. I mean, you don’t obviously have the same needs as a large organization for a CEO, but somebody who’s at least somebody that being you, who’s at least thinking about like, where am I trying to take this thing? What’s the big picture? All right. Number two, salesperson. Nobody’s going to make it rain, but you, right? I mean, you’re out there generating leads. You’re out there having those meetings. You’re out there closing those deals. That’s a, that’s obviously a very important role that you have to play typically.

Strategist, if you are a marketing consulting firm, if you’re an agency, you need to develop strategy for your clients. That’s really what’s going to differentiate you from everybody else who’s making those marketing plans, who’s helping that client decide where they’re trying to go. Project manager, right? Once you get the client, you do the strategy, you turn into a project manager, managing maybe its vendors or managing projects, campaigns, whatever the work calls for, there is essentially a project manager.

role in it. Then client manager, we have to do the reporting, we have to actually if we’re gonna, if we’re gonna have long term retainer clients, which are my favorites, we’re gonna have to actually maintain that relationship, we’re gonna have to be showing value, week in, week out, month in, month out. And that’s a role. That’s a that’s a function inside of business. And then finally, do we call it accountant? I don’t know. It’s a finance role. Somebody has to collect the money, somebody has to send out the invoices, somebody has to balance the

The checkbook, somebody has to make sure that bills are being paid on time, right? So there is that bookkeeping function. most people that I work with, agency owners, didn’t go into business because they love doing that work, but it’s an essential role. So of these roles, I think the key is to decide.

which ones are the most important? You know, you can make a case for all of them, right? But there’s no question that selling work, doing strategy, maintaining clients, maybe marketing your own business. I mean, these are roles that really have to be done on a consistent basis if you’re going to grow the business until you start getting help, until you can start getting into the role where maybe you are doing one or two of these and you have people doing some of the other roles.

John Jantsch (04:31.576)

So how do you balance that idea that some roles are more important than others, but you can’t just simply neglect or abdicate any of roles. So let’s go through those and talk about maybe how you not escape the role, but escape the chaos of either doing the role poorly or not at all. All right, so the first one, CEO. This is something that in a small business, I mean,

Time blocking is is the probably the only way you’re going to get to this right? If you just put it down as a task, think big about my business and then that like everything else on your checklist has to be addressed first. You’ve got to give yourself. I don’t care what it is, but let’s just pretend it is. Monday afternoon, block off two hours and use that two hours to think about the future of your business. The vision of business where you’re trying to go.

who you need to be doing that with, what you need to be doing without kind of feeling like, in between that, I’m gonna return email and I’m gonna do this project proposal for a prospect. No, that time is your big thinking time. If you don’t do it, if you don’t take that time to analyze where you are, where you’re going, where you wanna be, where the opportunities are, it never gets done. And then you just get really trapped in, gosh, wonder what I did today. Don’t know, I sure was busy, right?

So having that time is how you play the CEO role. Now the salesperson role, you’ve got to really get good at automating a lot of your follow-up. mean, if you are putting, if you’re generating leads by inviting them to webinars or you’re writing, having eBooks or things that they can download, checklists that they can download, you want to make, you know, the active campaigns of the world, the HubSpots of the world will allow you to create a 15 series email follow-up series

that just heaps value after value after value conversation and does it really automatically. I mean, that one’s kind of a no brainer because you really want to be taking a look, know, sale, active campaign, HubSpot, both also have pipeline. So you want to be taking a look at, are people I’ve talked to, here are people I want to talk to, here are people that have expressed interest but not move forward. You want to be having that kind of conversation where you can use those tools to automate

John Jantsch (06:54.862)

You know, if you move somebody from, we had this conversation or we had this meeting, now I’m going to move them to another stage in the pipeline. And that’ll automatically continue to nurture them with a different series of emails because they’ve moved to a different spot in the journey. So it takes time to set some of those things up, but really from a salesperson standpoint, you have to do it. Sales and marketing are something that you have to do every single day. And if you don’t set those things up,

you’ll not only be dropping opportunities, but you’ll be very inconsistent in terms of pipeline. And I think that’s one of the real killers with a smaller business because you get busy and then you look up one day and go, we haven’t been doing any marketing. Now the strategist role, mean, here’s the pitch from duct tape marketing. If you’re an agency or to this role, developing marketing strategy, developing the master plan for a client.

is something that you need to have a repeatable proven system for. If you are constantly making it up with every new client, reacting to what they say they want, here’s a hint. They don’t know what they want. Well, they know what they want. They don’t know what they need. They come to you with a list of tactics. We need you to do our social media and run that campaigns and produce content. What they need is a marketing plan, a marketing strategy that really differentiates them.

And that’s something that we license to agencies, fractional CMOs, consultants as the strategy first leadership system. They need leadership and they need scope. They need you to tell them what to do. They need you to lead them. So having a proven system to do that, quite frankly, is absolutely how you escape really that role from drowning you. Cause that’s, you know, I’ve talked to many, many business owners, many, many agency owners, and that’s the role that

consumes in some cases the greatest amount of time because it’s custom work every single time you do it. So what I imagine if you actually had a client come to you and say, hey, we need a website. You say, yes, you do. But first you need strategy first. And here’s how. And then you literally went down the process step by step. Here’s the process. You taught others in your organization to run many aspects of the process. You don’t have to think about what are we going to do? We’re going to do strategy first.

John Jantsch (09:16.588)

I mean, it’s a game changer. All right, let’s keep moving. Project manager. So you got to work, you develop strategy. They say, the strategy’s brilliant. Who’s gonna do this? And you say, well, I guess we are. And so there, again, using tools like, and we happen to use Monday, project management tools that allow you to not only show your client everything’s on track, give them unified communication.

give them access to all the reports, setting up a project management process that uses a technology like Monday or ClickUp or Asana. mean, there are a dozen, they probably all work about the same way. It’s essential, I think, if you are going to make this work. And a great deal of the things I’ve talked about, AI can play a real role in helping you. It can help you create, it can help you analyze your sales calls, past sales calls. It could help you create that email nurture

Setup that I talked about it could actually help you Set up repetitive tasks in some of the the you know, most of these tools today are building AI into it You can set up repetitive tasks in those All right marketing Your own agency. This is probably the one that gets most people I mean We were a lot of successful agencies in there and I can’t tell how many times they’ve said so they’re coming to us, you know analyzing our program and saying

and don’t look at my website because it’s a work in progress or it needs to be updated or I don’t know what it is. Maybe some of you have experienced that, right? We all do. It’s so hard to work on our own stuff because we’re working on our clients’ stuff. We’ve successfully done where we’ve actually, we have project managers in our business and we actually assign a project manager to our business as a client.

And I suggest that that’s how you have to look at it is you are one of your clients, you’ve got to get that work done. And that’s where really, you know, delegation, having somebody on board to do it. Consistently producing content, reproducing content, a lot of the AI tools, I never advise anybody to go to chat GPT, and say, give me a blog post on x words, but it does a great job of outlining

John Jantsch (11:34.466)

hub pages or outlines for bigger topics or giving you ideas. Then you write the content in your point of view, your voice. And then it does a really good job at repurposing that content into video scripts, into webinars, into LinkedIn posts. And then of course, you know, all of the social networks now tools like Buffer, Hootsuite, Zapier, Zapier, depending upon how you say it.

Lately, all of these tools really allow you to take a long piece of content, turn it into a hundred social posts, schedule those social posts out. The tools now will analyze. Lately is a great tool. It’ll actually analyze your content for what will get the most engagement. So there are many things that you can do and it’s not just a matter of spraying stuff around, but today, our clients, our prospects are actually

participating in a lot of networks. They’re getting their information a lot of different places. And so to some degree, we have to have that content in the format that they want it. Video, audio, text, short form, long form, both in video, long form, short form. So I mean, it’s overwhelming job to do that. And so using some of these assistants to really help you can be key. And before I go any farther, let’s use that word assistant again.

There are so many great ways for you to get virtual assistance. And it may not be, you’re gonna go out and find the marketer of the century and you’re going to delegate all your marketing to them. But maybe your first step is to actually say, look, of these seven roles that John’s talking about, which ones, what are those that I can’t do, I don’t like to do, maybe aren’t as essential for my business?

You know, finance is essential, but it’s not essential that you do it. That’s one that there are a ton of people out there that just basic bookkeeping can be purchased very inexpensively and it’ll get done right. It’ll get done on time. You will have your invoices going out. So, you know, there are places where, you know, investing in your business to get to free up not just time, not just tasks, but maybe even headspace. You know, some of these roles you don’t get to because you just don’t have the headspace.

John Jantsch (14:00.814)

I think we covered, no, I’m down to client manager, keeping clients happy. Boy, I tell you, this is one where we have heavily used AI. And the reason is because a lot of the reports that we get, you use tools like SEMrush and you use Google Analytics and you get these reports, you get a lot of data, but making sense out of the data, extracting anything that demonstrate to a client, here’s the value of what we’re doing.

AI is tremendous at actually analyzing those results. you know, using tools for that. In terms of accounting, again, I’m sure I don’t think there’s an AI tool out there that’ll send invoices. The day’s coming. We will have that. But in terms of the accounting role, I would definitely say that’s one that find somebody to do that. If you’re doing that yourself, it’s not getting done well. It’s not getting done on time. And that’s going to seriously hurt your business.

Here’s kind of the four prong approach, if you will.

John Jantsch (15:08.216)

Figure out what’s important, figure out what you like to do and what you’re good at doing. What’s the most valuable to your business and focus on creating systems and processes around those things that free up some of your time. Think about what you could delegate. And again, the list for that is what do I hate doing? What am I not good at doing? What maybe doesn’t move the needle?

if I’m doing it. And those are the first things that you should delegate and outsource so that you’re not doing them. The trouble with a lot of agencies is that, even solopreneurs, maybe you have three or four clients. And so, hey, I can do all this work. But then you look up one day and you can’t. You’re designing the websites, you’re writing all the copy, you’re doing all the things, and all of a sudden, you’ve got as much as you’ve

got on your plate, can no longer look for clients. You can no longer do really great work. You’re getting burned out. So, you know, delegating and outsourcing as soon as possible is a real key here. So the seven roles that I defined are important. They’re the plates that you have to keep spinning. But guess what? You can build foundations under those plates. They don’t have to be a little skinny stick anymore. So

That’s my two cents. If you’d like to know more about the duct tape marketing strategy first leadership system that we licensed to agencies and consultancies, check out duct tape marketing.com. We’d love to visit with you about how we might be able to bring our proven systems processes, almost business in a box. These seven roles are all covered in our training. So we can bring you that proven system so that you

can actually start getting out there and doing your best work, having a life, scaling a business that serves that life. All right, thanks for tuning in. Love to hear your feedback on today’s show and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.


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How to Attract Your Ideal Customers with the Right Brand Archetype

How to Attract Your Ideal Customers with the Right Brand Archetype written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Jane McCarthy

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, Sara Nay steps in as host to interview Jane McCarthy, a seasoned brand strategist and author of The Goddess Guide to Branding. Jane specializes in helping female entrepreneurs develop authentic, compelling brand identities through the power of goddess archetypes. Drawing from Carl Jung archetypes, she has created a branding framework that enables businesses to connect emotionally with their audience while maintaining a strong brand positioning.

During their conversation, Jane explained how businesses can use archetypes to craft an engaging brand storytelling strategy, ensuring their messaging resonates deeply with their ideal customers. She highlighted the importance of emotional branding, aligning a business’s core identity with the needs and desires of its audience. By embracing feminine branding strategies, companies can create a unique and relatable business identity that fosters trust and loyalty.

Sara’s discussion with Jane McCarthy provides valuable insights into brand development by blending business branding with powerful storytelling. By identifying the right archetype, businesses can position their brand more effectively, attract their ideal audience, and stand out in the marketplace.

Key Takeaways:

  • Brand archetypes enhance emotional connection – Using Carl Jung archetypes in branding creates a personality-driven approach that resonates with customers on a deeper level.
  • The right branding framework builds long-term credibility – A well-defined brand strategy helps businesses maintain consistency and authenticity, which strengthens customer trust.
  • Feminine branding can differentiate your business – Traditional archetypes often lean toward masculine traits, but embracing goddess archetypes allows brands to cultivate a more diverse and inclusive identity.
  • Personal branding plays a key role in business branding – Entrepreneurs who align their personal and business brand identities create a stronger, more authentic marketing presence.
  • Brand evolution should focus on amplifying strengths – Instead of completely rebranding, businesses should refine what customers already love about their brand to maintain loyalty while staying relevant.

Chapters:

  • [00:09] Introducing Jane McCarthy
  • [00:44] What are Goddess Archetypes?
  • [05:37] Identifying your Brand’s Goddess Archetype
  • [08:56] Using your Archetype to Find the Right Talent
  • [12:05] Brands That Embody Goddess Archetypes
  • [16:34] How to Approach Goddess Archetypes
  • [18:44] Figuring out the Heart of your Brand

More About Jane McCarthy: 

Check out Jane McCarthy’s Website

Connect with Jane McCarthy on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Want to elevate your marketing game? AdCritter pairs Connected TV ads with precise digital retargeting to drive real results. Discover how their full-funnel strategy can help your business grow smarter. Let them know Duct Tape Marketing sent you, and you’ll get a dollar-for-dollar match on your first campaign! Learn more at adcritter.com.



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Sara Nay (00:01.592)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is Sara Nay and today I’m stepping in as host for John Jantsch. And we’re actually doing a ladies takeover of the show because I have Jane McCarthy as my guest. Really excited to talk to you, Jane. Jane is a brand strategist who has worked with clients such as Sweet Tart, Southern California Edison and Pilot Pen. She is the author of the goddess guide to branding.

Helping female entrepreneurs create an abundant and authentic feminine brand. So welcome to the show, Jane.

Jane McCarthy (00:33.144)

Thank you, Sarah, I’m so happy to be here.

Sara Nay (00:36.792)

Well, let’s dive on in. One of the things that I know that you talk about a lot are the concept of goddess archetypes. And so for our listeners today, can you give me an overview as to what are goddess archetypes and how do they relate to brands and in business in general?

Jane McCarthy (00:52.684)

Yeah, so let’s start with archetype. Okay, so many of us are familiar with archetypes from Hollywood movies. Think about the hero of an action film or the outlaw of a Western. The comic who plays that role of giving a little bit of comic relief in a film. We are familiar with these characters. They play

they’re played by different actors, they wear different costumes, but at their essence, it’s a character we know, and that’s what’s considered an archetype. And this concept was developed by Carl Jung, who is one of the famous psychologists, psychoanalysts of the 20th century. And he developed a set of 12 archetypes that can be utilized as like base characters in the human experience. And if you think about,

Star Wars, that was a film that was really based on the knowledge of archetypes from Carl Jung. And in marketing, branding folks started to realize that we can use these characters to create a brand that feels like it has a personality people can actually connect with, a sense of humanity.

And so I, in my career as a brand strategist, and I’ve worked in advertising for over 15 years, have loved using archetypes. And I found that when I get to that central character with a business, we immediately understand the voice. We have a sense of the feel, even the colors and the symbols start to become clear. And so I’ve utilized Carl Jung’s archetypes throughout.

My my journey as as a brand strategist. However, one thing that I noticed is that a lot of those archetypes Tended to toward the masculine. So you have the hero you have the everyman is what it’s called in that system Which is like the guy next door and the explorer and there’s that that’s great but then the more feminine ones were

Jane McCarthy (03:08.556)

the lover and the caregiver. And I thought, wait a second, there are so many variations on the archetypal character from the feminine lens. And that led me to the work of Jean-Chenota Bolin, who is a Jungian analyst. And in the 1980s, she wrote this seminal book called, Goddesses and Every Woman. And she mapped the psyche of women along archetypal lines, utilizing the Greco-Roman goddess system.

Sara Nay (03:11.116)

Hehehe

Jane McCarthy (03:38.624)

and the goddesses. And I thought, this is an amazing source point to bring to branding and to say, let’s look at which goddess energy, if you want a more feminine energy brand, what goddess energy are you? And that’s how I got to the goddess archetypes for branding, which is like Athena, the free, the huntress, or Demeter, the love, the mother, or Maiden Persephone, the goddess of youth and magic and fantasy. And so,

It’s just been really fun to outline these. have eight goddess archetypes that you can utilize to inspire your brand based on this Jungian work.

Sara Nay (04:17.388)

Yeah, that’s great. And so you touch on a few of them, but can you quickly go over what are the eight different architects that you have identified?

Jane McCarthy (04:24.672)

Yeah, so Athena is the goddess of wisdom. She’s very much about education, working within the system to create credibility and legitimacy. She works toward justice. Another example is Hestia the sacred. She was the goddess of the hearth and she’s very much about like light and purity. So I associate her with healing.

And with products that are about wellness and about sacred space and quiet and almost, she’s almost the Zen kind of energy. And then we have Hera. She got a bad rap as being Zeus’s jealous, venomous wife. I think I see her as the regal energy and she’s the goddage of tradition and partnership. She is the queen energy. And…

you know, I rewrote her story a little bit for this book. So those are some examples of the goddesses and how much fun it is to work with mythic archetypes and then think about how that translates into brands today in contemporary life.

Sara Nay (05:40.526)

That’s great. So if someone is listening today and they’re working on their branding and they’re looking for clarity and direction, how would they go about identifying what goddess they might align with as a company?

Jane McCarthy (05:53.164)

Yeah, so if you look at this set of eight archetypes, you’re gonna see that there are dominant gifts that each goddess has. So for example, I mentioned Diana the Free, the goddess of the hunt. So she inspires adventuring, she inspires confidence, she inspires going out beyond the known. And so if you’re a brand that’s about

exploring new territories, then you can look to Diana to inspire you. So it’s a lot about what is the energy that you want to infuse your bandwidth and also the gift that you have. And so then another gift is Venus, the goddess of beauty and pleasure. And so if you’re bringing the energy of like pure joy, recreation,

Playfulness, then you can be a Venus archetype. So it’s thinking about the, you can think about the gifts that you want to bring to your customers through the brand experience. And that will bring you to your archetype, among others. I have a bunch of different exercises, but that’s one.

Sara Nay (07:09.228)

That’s one. It’s interesting to hear you talk through that, especially because I took the assessment that you have available on your website that I found and it identified myself as Diana the free and I’ve been at duct tape marketing for

about 14 years now and people have always looked at us as a marketing firm to be ahead, one step ahead of all the changes and evolution that’s happening in marketing. And so when I got that specific architect type, that aligned very nicely with what I’ve been in the position to do over the last 14 years.

Jane McCarthy (07:40.972)

love that. And I have to admit that I saw your quiz results and I saw that some folks at Duck Tape, a lot of you guys got Diana and I thought, okay, this is a team that’s aligned. And so yes, this is the goddess that is the innovative goddess and is one step ahead of the curve. And by the way, a lot of female founders have Diana as their core archetype. So you’re hitting on something too, which is a brand has

Sara Nay (07:45.004)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (07:53.024)

Yes.

Jane McCarthy (08:10.528)

an archetype, but then your person can have one. And of course, that’s what I took them from. I took them from a young analyst who was talking about people. And so we tend to all have one core archetype that defines our personality. I, for example, am a maiden Persephone. And so I’m all about imagination and feeling into possibility and

fantasy and myth, which actually makes sense for why I ended up doing what I’ve done here. But this can be very informative as we think about our own mission and our own purpose. And then if we are at the heart of our business and we’re the face of our business, like you are the host of this podcast, then who you are is going to inform the energy of the brand, the energy of the business that you’re driving. So who you are and your

Sara Nay (08:47.971)

Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (09:05.536)

your archetype is potentially linked, not always and doesn’t have to be, but potentially very linked to the archetype of your brand.

Sara Nay (09:13.9)

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And that’s actually a reason that I was interested in having my team take the assessment as well after I did, because, you know, I think we’ve established duct tape marketing as a brand over the years, but, one of the things that we’re always hiring for when we’re hiring new people are things, people that are up for change and up for a challenge and that want to be seen as leaders. So it wasn’t a surprise that we had.

a bunch of Diana’s on our team because of kind of what we’ve built as a brand and who we’ve hired for. And so I’m just curious in your experience, like this is all really important conversation for building the brand and putting yourself out there and resonating with clients. But in your experience, does it help with, you know, hiring and attracting the right type of candidates to join your team as well?

Jane McCarthy (09:56.226)

Well, I think this is a really intriguing idea. And I don’t have tremendous experience with team building based on archetypes, so I won’t make a objective statement. But I will tell you that I’m really interested in personality types in this whole world, and I have been for some time. And I was up at Esalen in Big Sur taking a workshop on Enneagram types.

Sara Nay (09:59.651)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (10:09.176)

Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (10:22.59)

And the Enneagram, I also mapped the Enneagram to the goddess archetypes and I utilized that system as well. And I remember talking with a guy who is a very successful CEO of a essential oils company. And he told me that when he was hiring, he did an Enneagram personality test on every applicant and he only hired number two, which is called the helper in the Enneagram system.

Sara Nay (10:50.275)

Mm-hmm.

Jane McCarthy (10:51.662)

for people who were gonna be working on the floor in stores. And he was just looking for that natural helping personality to be frontline, because we all know that if you have a brand or a business where you’re interacting with people in real life on the human level, that service experience is essential and you can have the right colors, you can have the right symbols, you can have the right products, but if everything falls down at the service level, that’s a disappointment. So I think…

Sara Nay (10:59.288)

Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (11:21.406)

I saw I saw I’ve had that anecdotal story of somebody who applied personality types to position in company effective.

Sara Nay (11:33.046)

Yeah, we’ve done a number of assessments over the years. So that’s why I was curious in relation to yours. well let’s dive into some, I love hearing about examples like the one you shared there. so, but can you identify any brands that you would say embody one specific type of architect and why and how they identify that.

Jane McCarthy (11:51.822)

Okay, yes, so since we’re talking about Diana the Free, we’ll just continue on that path. I think she’s a goddess, she’s the huntress, she’s running through the wilderness, she has no interest in cocktail parties on Olympus. And if you think about Wonder Woman and the Wonder Woman film from 2017 that was so great, her name is Diana. So this is Diana or the Athena archetype.

Sara Nay (11:55.906)

Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (12:19.694)

I interviewed for the book, The Goddess Guide to Branding, a CEO named Caitlin Bram. And she has started a hard cider company called Yonder, which is based in the Pacific Northwest. And they have a taproom now in Seattle. And then she has distribution throughout the region. And I think eventually she wants to go national. But her brand is called Yonder. And it’s all about the wild and wandering spirit.

of a yonder brand. And if you think about Diana as being this goddess of the wilderness, she has this wild and wandering spirit that’s about, that has to do with yonder. And on her can is a wolf howling at the moon. And she said, I can’t tell you how many people ask me for more merch that has this wolf. They just love this wolf. And so you could think apples, fall festival.

Sara Nay (12:51.331)

Mm-mm.

Sara Nay (13:09.688)

Mm-hmm.

Jane McCarthy (13:16.952)

that it’s not necessarily where you would go with a cider brand, but she went to a wild spirit, a wolf spirit, or in my case, in my book, a Diana spirit, in order to get at this adventuring spirit, first of all, so that people would think about trying something different, because most people are not familiar with hard cider, but also to deal with any issues around, think this cider is gonna be sweet.

Sara Nay (13:29.026)

Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (13:44.642)

Her products aren’t sweet. She focuses on making hard cider that tastes more like a cocktail. And so through her brand story, she combats any naysayers around, this is going to be sickly sweet. I don’t want to try it. So you can see how the wildness energy appeals to people on a visceral level. But then it also helps with tell the product story in a way that will be appealing. And that’s totally Diana. It’s about adventuring forward.

Sara Nay (13:50.701)

Yes.

Sara Nay (14:12.992)

Yeah, great. Can you give me another example? really love hearing, you know, use cases like you just did there. So can you talk through just one more example of a different brand? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (14:18.154)

Yeah, yeah, let me talk another one. So I love talking about the women in the book because they’re so awesome and they have, you know, fairly new companies. And so another brand in the book is Alice Mushrooms and Alice Mushrooms makes functional mushroom chocolates. And so people are familiar with functional mushrooms. Some of some people take it in their tea. They put it in smoothies and

These ladies put, these founders put their, Lindsey Goodstein and Charlotte Wasserstein to be specific, put these chocolates, the functional mushrooms in chocolate and then in a beautiful tin that is meant to have, you’re meant to have one square a day. So the mechanism of giving you the functional thing is a delightful treat.

And that was the innovation is they were, sorry, it was Charlotte Cruz. We may have to, maybe I could just retake this. Is this okay? I don’t want to get their names wrong. I’m so sorry. Okay. Okay. So Alice Mushrooms is a functional mushroom chocolate brand and they deliver the goodness of functional mushrooms in a chocolate square.

Sara Nay (15:24.332)

Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Yep, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. It’s okay.

Jane McCarthy (15:43.22)

And so you can take your daily dose of functional mushrooms through chocolate. And so then what they did with the brand, this is Charlotte Cruz and Lindsey Goodstein, these are the founders. They decided to use what I call a Maiden Persephone archetype. And so they took a functional mushroom chocolate and they made it delightful. They made it the energy of magical, fantastical, Alice in Wonderland world.

And if you go onto their website, when you use your cursor, little stardust follows your cursor. So the whole thing is delightful. And interestingly, in that category, a lot of the functional mushroom products are doing 70s psychedelia. So they really do like, and I love the Grateful Dead, but it’s kind of like tie-dye Grateful Dead energy. And so they completely did something different and they went to

Maiden Persephone energy, the goddess of delights and youth and sweetness. And they created a functional mushroom product that’s very feminine, very elevated. And so they found an archetype really inspired by Alice. And I would think of this as Maiden Persephone that differentiates them in market and appeals to people in a wholly different way compared to having a functional mushroom tea.

Sara Nay (17:10.488)

I love it. Thanks for sharing both of those examples. I’m gonna have to go check out their website and see the fairy dust. Now you intrigued me. My next question to you is let’s say someone’s listening today and they just overall like feel like their branding is tired. needs a do over, it needs a relook. How would you encourage them to approach this whole topic and just brand strategy in general?

Jane McCarthy (17:32.994)

Yeah, so I think this is a really intriguing thing to take on because what I want to caution is you never want to walk away too quickly from something that you’re known for. It takes time to establish credibility, legitimacy, and connection with customers. That takes a lot of time. So if you’ve been in market,

First, you want to look at what people love about you and really savor that and make sure that you build on that in a fresh way rather than throwing everything out. I’m always cautioning against a full reboot and I think an evolution and the word evolution is nice. And so then thinking about what people love about you and then what is the credible impact you can have on their life.

starting from there, I would then say, look to the archetype who delivers that and get really rooted in the meaning that you bring, get really clear about it, and then come up with all kinds of fun ways to do things new and different. That’s in the creative expression, right? That’s in the tactical imagination. But strategy-wise, don’t be too quick to walk away from what you’ve developed. Figure out what’s best.

about what you do, what people love about you, and then amplify that. And if you get the book, you can figure out which archetype you are. And I have a system for thinking about how to evolve. But that’s my big suggestion is don’t be too quick to walk away from what people love. Instead, come up with fresh ways to deliver on that.

Sara Nay (19:22.754)

That’s great. And one last question I was going to go to today. So I’m glad that you mentioned your book there. What can people expect if they do grab a copy of your book? What are they going to learn? Obviously learning what archetype makes the most sense for them, but what else can they get out of that book?

Jane McCarthy (19:37.472)

Yes, so figuring out your archetype is the first step. And in a lot of ways, it can unlock other keys to what I call your brand blueprint. But in the book, I walk you through this full set of exercises to get you to a complete brand blueprint. so for me, that’s not just the archetype, but we also share how you figure out the heart of your brand. So what is that core motivation, that driving energy,

Many of us who are into marketing are familiar with Simon Sinek’s idea of why, like why you’re doing this and what is that raw passion behind your business? So we get clear on that. And then the, what I call the gift. So what is the central emotion that you want your brand to help amplify in people? And so what is the takeaway feeling that they have?

after they’ve had an experience with your brand. So we wanna get clear on, once you know the feeling you wanna give people, you can come up with a million different ways of delivering on that feeling. But we wanna figure out what is that positive impact you wanna make at an emotional level. And then the style piece, which I think of both the iconic elements of your brand, so your colors, your symbols, the words, the voice, those are things that are true threat over time. And then we have a couple of…

exercises to start to think about how you then live that brand day by day, that brand identity day by day in terms of the dynamic actions. So what’s happening this month in the social media calendar, et cetera. So you leave with a complete brand blueprint that I think boils down the essentials of what makes a brand identity.

Sara Nay (21:26.582)

Yeah, that’s great. And a lot of those components are elements that John and I have been talking about the importance of marketing right now with everything that’s evolving. Like it’s becoming more and more important to connect with your clients on an emotional level and to tell the story of why and to represent the brand in a positive light. Like those things are gaining importance in marketing. So I’m glad that you touch on all of those in the book. If anyone wants to connect with you online, where can they find you Jane?

Jane McCarthy (21:53.464)

So I have a website, goddessoffice.com, and then I’m also on Substack, goddessoffice.substack.com, and I would love for you to reach out.

Sara Nay (22:04.438)

Awesome. Thanks so much for being on the show, Jane. really loved learning from you and speaking with you and thank you everyone for listening to the duct tape marketing podcast. We’ll see you next time.


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Weekend Favs February 15th

Weekend Favs February 15th written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.

I don’t go into depth about the finds, but I encourage you to check them out if they sound interesting. The photo in the post is a favorite for the week from an online source or one I took on the road.

  • Atomic Elevator offers EllaAi, an AI-driven marketing strategy platform that assists businesses and marketing professionals in developing comprehensive strategies, creating content, and optimizing campaigns through proven frameworks and data-driven insights.
  • Franzy is an AI-powered platform that matches aspiring franchisees with the right opportunities based on their goals.
  • AddEvent is a tool that facilitates event sharing and calendar management, allowing users to create events and provide “add to calendar” links for easy scheduling.

These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Connect with me on Linkedin!

If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.

Why Storytelling is the Most Powerful Business Skill (and How to Master It)

Why Storytelling is the Most Powerful Business Skill (and How to Master It) written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Mike Ganino

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Mike Ganino, a keynote speaker, storytelling expert, and the author of Make a Scene. Mike has helped shape viral TEDx talks, launch bestselling books, and coach leaders at Disney, Netflix, and Adobe to become dynamic, magnetic performers.

During our conversation, Mike shared why storytelling is not just a tool but a fundamental business skill that can transform public speaking, business communication, and leadership. He emphasized that while many professionals understand the importance of storytelling, few know how to craft engaging narratives that captivate audiences. By focusing on stage presence, storytelling techniques, and audience engagement, business leaders, marketers, and speakers can elevate their executive communication and brand storytelling to drive deeper connections and influence.

Mike Ganino’s insights prove that mastering storytelling techniques isn’t just for keynote speakers—it’s an essential skill for anyone in business communication, executive leadership, and brand storytelling. By refining public speaking tips, presentation skills, and speaker coaching, professionals can become more persuasive, engaging, and memorable in any business setting.

Key Takeaways:

  • Storytelling is a Business Superpower – Whether in public speaking, marketing, or leadership, compelling stories create emotional connections and make ideas memorable.
  • Start with a Scene – Great stories don’t always begin at the beginning. Mike advises speakers to drop the audience into a scene to create instant engagement.
  • Performance Matters – Beyond words, stage presence, voice modulation, and body language are key factors in delivering a powerful message.
  • Mastering Public Speaking – Effective speakers understand how to use storytelling frameworks to enhance presentation skills and keep audiences engaged.
  • Storytelling in Leadership Communication – Executives can use storytelling to inspire teams, navigate change, and build trust, making it a critical tool for business storytelling.
  • Practice in Low-Stakes Settings – Before taking the stage, hone your storytelling skills in meetings, presentations, and marketing content to build confidence and clarity.

Chapters:

  • [00:09] Introducing Mike Ganino
  • [00:57] Why is Storytelling a Hot Topic?
  • [02:09] What Draws Us to Storytelling?
  • [03:29] What Does Make a Scene Mean?
  • [05:44] Are There Any Rules to Storytelling?
  • [07:15] What if You’re Not Good at Storytelling?
  • [09:12] Benefits of Being a Good Storyteller
  • [12:45] Performance in Storytelling
  • [15:32] How to Get Better at Storytelling
  • [17:31] Do Different Platforms Need Different Approaches?

More About Mike Ganino: 



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John Jantsch (00:00.855)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Mike Ganino. He’s a creative force behind some of the world’s most compelling speakers and thought leaders. As a keynote director, he’s helped shape viral TEDx talks, launch bestselling books, and transform leaders at Disney, Netflix, and Adobe into magnetic performers.

He’s the author of the number one international bestseller we’re going to talk about today, Make a Scene, storytelling stage presence and the art of being unforgettable in every spotlight. So Mike, welcome to the show.

Mike Ganino (00:35.234)

Thanks, thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (00:37.175)

So do magnetic people like stick to stuff?

Mike Ganino (00:39.852)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they just walk around and like they attach themselves to like warehouses and cars and it’s a good life.

John Jantsch (00:45.015)

I’m sorry, I couldn’t help myself. That was terrible. All right. So storytelling hot topic. I bet you now we’re only one month into the year, but I know I’ve done at least one other show on storytelling. So two things. Why do you think so? And it’s such a hot topic. And, and I suppose the follow-up to that is like, what are you bringing that’s different?

Mike Ganino (01:08.686)

It’s such a hot topic because like it fundamentally makes sense. We get it. see, you know, storytellers, whether we’re watching someone on stage or we’re watching a movie, we’re watching a play, we’re reading fiction, we get that storytelling does something to us. And I think that there’s an element of it that the reason why it’s this kind of like, it’s coming up and it’s coming up again and it’s coming up again is because so much of the education around it out there focuses on the fact that like storytelling is important.

you should be storytelling, everyone has a story, but not very many people are actually saying, how do you make a story interesting? Where do you actually start? And for me, that’s what I hope I’m bringing that’s not new, but is definitely different than, know, and I have so many of the books on like the psychology of it, the neuroscience of it, the history of it, but like, how do you actually, what’s the first thing out of your mouth? There’s not a lot of great resources on that.

John Jantsch (01:43.233)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:55.212)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:01.781)

Yeah. You know what I’m always fascinated with? I read a lot of stuff, probably verges on anthropology. And you know, that storytelling was it. Like that’s where it started. Right? I mean, that was the only way to communicate necessarily. And you, you told stories to stay out of being eaten. You told stories, you know, where the food was, you told stories about, know, who not to trust on the road. you know, is, is that sort of in our DNA kind of why you think storytelling, you know,

part of what makes storytelling so natural.

Mike Ganino (02:34.49)

I so. mean, I think, and I think there’s probably plenty of books out there that talk about that exact thing of like, is by, but, we are like wired. Like in a make a scene, wrote about how so much that we could be learning about how to tell more effective stories is about how to trigger a dopamine response from the audience in that anticipation of reward in your story. And so I don’t know our, our, you know, body chemicals respond to wanting to know what happens next and needing a solution. It’s like,

when you sit down and you watch an episode of Law and Order SVU and your brain, even though you’ve maybe seen it 27 times, you’re just like, ooh, I’ve got to watch this episode again, because we want to know what happens next. We want to understand and feel that. And so, yeah, I think it’s somewhere in there.

John Jantsch (03:17.879)

And then six hours later, you’re like, I better go do something else. So it’s in the title, Make a Scene. So, you know, what do you mean by that? Other than it, you know, cleverly works with the basis of storytelling as a scene, right? But there’s also you can also interpret that as, you know, somebody is making a scene, you know, in a maybe not altogether positive way. So where are you trying to what line are you trying to strap?

Mike Ganino (03:47.73)

I think both, you the idea was that it had that double meaning that often my storytelling advice for people is start in a scene. A lot of times what we hear, we hear this bad advice again of like, start at the beginning. And it’s like, well, maybe not, maybe we don’t need to start at the beginning or we’ll hear that we need lots of exposition or a great story, you know, has X, Y, Z in it. And most of the time, my advice to people is, can you just make a scene for me? Like if I’m the director of this film that you’re creating,

What would I put in front of the camera? And if the first thing out of your mouth doesn’t help me decide what I would film, then we’re probably in summary and not in story yet. So make a scene is literally my storytelling advice. And then secondarily, I just think there’s so many people that have read so many books about all the things they shouldn’t do when public speaking or going on video, get rid of your isms and change the way you sound and try to sound deeper, try to sound less shrill. Don’t move your hands too much.

get rid of all of your ums, that I thought, what if we just had a book that was like, all of that can actually be quite effective. And when we see someone do it who is effective, we don’t worry about how many times they said at all.

John Jantsch (04:52.595)

F

John Jantsch (04:59.511)

Yeah, I saw somebody that I think was one of the most impactful talks I’ve heard. And he leaned against the podium most of the time. But there was something about it worked for him. Yeah, yeah.

Mike Ganino (05:14.872)

breaks all the rules. In the book I wrote about Monica Lewinsky when she did her TED talk several years ago, she’s one of the only people ever in the history of that to have a podium in front of her on the red dot. But it was a device. And at the end, she stepped out from behind it as like taking back her identity. And so that even is don’t stand behind a podium. No one at TED is allowed to stand behind a podium, except you can sometimes if you know how to break the rule.

John Jantsch (05:27.084)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:39.223)

Yeah. So this is dangerous. Is there a definition of great story or great storytelling? Is there a framework? there rules? is there, you got to have this and this and this. mean, that was about eight questions. So take it anywhere you want, but.

Mike Ganino (05:55.654)

I think the ultimate measurement of a story, and this is why even in the book, I don’t go through all of these, like, here’s the one framework you need, because you could find 20 examples of that not working. And I think so many people have lost themselves trying to do the like, I need to tell a hero’s journey. And then all of a sudden you’re like lost in the dark soul of your night and you don’t know where you are or what side, and you’re like, I just wanted to tell them. But Yoda’s there, I think.

John Jantsch (06:18.113)

But Yoda shows up at least. mean so…

Mike Ganino (06:21.058)

goodness, know, Dios y machina, he’s gonna save us. But I think that, again, all of the, can the frameworks work? Sure. But I’ve got 30 books on screenplay writing over here. And if all of the frameworks worked, every single movie would be a runaway hit. It’s not. I think the measurement of story is, is the pacing correct? That the audience is kind of like, wants to know what happens next, that they’re never saying, maybe they’re saying to themselves,

I can’t wait to see where this is going versus where is this going? You want the first version not the second. Does it cause an emotional response? Do they hate things? Do they love things? Do they feel things? I think those are ultimately the measurements. And when we start to look at storytelling and measure, did you have five acts? Did you have seven beats? Did you have this? We’re measuring the wrong thing instead of measuring what was the audience’s feeling from what they had. Did it do its job?

John Jantsch (06:53.047)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:11.777)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:18.561)

So I’m not sure if you work with these people, but there are certainly people out there probably listening who say, I’m just not good at story or I’m not as natural born story. Cause you, we’ve all met somebody you’re like that could talk all day long, you know, tell stories from their youth, you know, all day long. But a lot of people just, just really hesitate. I mean, it’s the same with getting on stage period, but you know, when you, when, somebody says I’m not a good storyteller, what do you do with that person?

Mike Ganino (07:30.422)

Yeah

Mike Ganino (07:46.402)

I generally ask them questions. Like when I have a client who says, I’m not a good storyteller. Like when I work with a lot of executives who are going to have to go out and speak to their company or speak at a convention or conference. And they’ve been sent to me usually by their like chief communications officer to say, help them be less boring. And I say, great, tell me some stories. I’m not a good storyteller. I just stick to the facts. My general thing is great. So the thing that you just told me, you just told me that AI is a great solution for small businesses. How do you know that to be true?

Where have you seen that to be true? I ask questions like that that are like, show me some of your personal experience with it. And that almost always gets them to be able to tell a story. Now, we need to shape it. We need to kind of clean it up a little bit, but it gets them to realize that they actually can tell stories. The issue is that they’re measuring themselves against like Steven Spielberg or Mel Robbins or something like that. And it’s like, we don’t have to all have the story of an astronaut who was in space. We can have just a, happened on a Tuesday story.

John Jantsch (08:24.171)

Yeah,

John Jantsch (08:30.806)

Yeah.

Mike Ganino (08:44.61)

that is a metaphor or just an example, if you know how to tell it. And usually that’s my way in with people who say, I’m not a storyteller. say, cool, no problem. That’s certainly a strange job to have anyway. Like there’s not a lot of people who get paid well being a storyteller. So don’t worry about that. But can you tell me how you know the thing that you just said is true? When did you see that? How’d you learn it? And we started locking stories out.

John Jantsch (09:05.929)

a little Byron Katie. I don’t know if you’re familiar with her work, but, but it the essence of that. Can you know that that’s true? Yeah, that’s so, so, you know, a lot of people naturally think, especially you work with speakers who are on stages, but storytelling is a part of life, right? It’s a story of, it’s certainly a part of a lot of elements of business. So, you know, how do you get somebody to start realizing that?

Mike Ganino (09:08.278)

Yes. Yeah, the questions, right? Like, how do you know that to be true? I’ve read that book.

John Jantsch (09:34.251)

They don’t have to want to be a paid speaker to be better at storytelling.

Mike Ganino (09:38.862)

It’s really that idea of if you’re, I think there’s very few people whose job is not to communicate with others and very few people whose job is not to get others to see something the way they want them to see it. And that doesn’t mean it has to be some persuasive, like you’ll change your mind, but like, I just want you to understand the situation the way that I do. And a story is often a very effective way to help them see it or say, oh, that’s interesting. Yeah, I didn’t think of it in that situation or scenario in a way that the data or facts alone couldn’t do. And so,

When I’ve worked with organizations like Disney or Adobe and Netflix, Caesars Entertainment, it’s helping them see that like, helping the audience understand the situation they’re in. If they’re in a sales meeting, if they’re a leadership at an all hands trying to convince the team that we have to like, know, buckle the purse straps a little bit, cause things are going to get tough. The most effective way to help them understand the situation is to put it into a narrative that they can say, I get that. I kind of, I don’t like it, but I see where you’re coming from. That makes sense now. Or.

I understand how the analogy you used about, you know, your grandma growing up is exactly like the situation we face. Okay, cool. I’m with you now. And so it’s helping them realize that all of those instances are times where a story could do a lot of the heavy lifting that a whole bunch of facts would have to do.

John Jantsch (10:54.293)

Yeah. And I think sometimes like in a sales environment, right? Stories are kind of disarming, right? We’re all of a sudden, we’re listening to the story. We’re building rapport. We’re building trust rather than being sold to. Do you think that, and you know, we’re 10 minutes in, I’m going to mention AI for the first time. Although I think you did earlier. I feel like, do you feel like I should ask you that storytelling is actually going to be a differentiator?

Mike Ganino (11:13.974)

I did, yeah.

John Jantsch (11:23.957)

You know, because AI doesn’t know my story. It never will. I mean, it might make up some stuff, but you know, my true authentic story that somebody might relate to is probably all I’ve got left, isn’t it?

Mike Ganino (11:35.928)

Yeah, and your takeaway from the things you experienced. So even if it’s not like your origin story, because sometimes people get lost with that of like, need my story. And I think, I don’t even know what my story is, but I got a whole bunch of them that helped me do my job every day. And I think that that’s the thing that AI can’t get. It could probably at some point learn something. We can shove enough blockbuster screenplays in there to work, but also we’re dealing with human feelings on the other side. So as soon as it starts to work, it’s going to start to not work anymore.

John Jantsch (11:48.519)

You

John Jantsch (12:05.473)

Yeah.

Mike Ganino (12:05.75)

And so those little stories of something you saw yesterday when you went to drop your kid off at school that made you think about something, AI will never know that because it’s always going to be lagging. It’s always going to be behind. And so I think that our ability to communicate in a way that actually makes people feel something, if we go back to like, how do you measure a story? Well, did it elicit a feeling in the person that is going to be such a differentiator because

We have all of the news of the day, all the history of the world, anything we want to find. You could even have AI. I’ve seen people do it like, know, pop in there and say like, here’s my goals for my business this year. What should I do? It can do all of that work, but it cannot do that storytelling piece of connecting something you experienced and almost holding it out. And I don’t remember who originally said this of like, hey, have you ever felt this way too? That is going to be such a differentiator, I think.

John Jantsch (12:59.671)

How big a part is the performance part? So the story or the words, the way you express the expression, but you know, how you act on stage, your body language, how you use your voice, your hands. I’m trying to gesture right now. But so how much of that is what really takes a good story over the top?

Mike Ganino (13:21.816)

I think a huge percentage of it, you know, in the book I talk about these five stage languages, which are the five ways that an audience interprets and understands our full meaning, right? The first one is verbal, the words you choose, the stories you tell, all those things. The second one is voice. Just the way that we sound signals to the audience how to feel. If, you know, I was working with someone recently, an executive, a chief marketing officer, and she was getting asked to go speak more frequently, and the feedback she’d gotten is that her voice was difficult to listen to.

And when we got on a call, we started working together. It’s that the whole time she was really up here this whole time speaking like this. And she thought, this is just how I sound. But she also was holding her chest. She wasn’t breathing. She was gasping for air. And all of those are defensive mechanisms. All of those are learned behaviors. And so we did some exercises just to have her kind of like drop her, her larynx a little bit, which is going to make your voice sound a little more grounded. And she was even shocked of like, is that me? And it’s like, yeah, you haven’t heard that voice in a long time because

John Jantsch (14:14.07)

Mm-hmm.

Mike Ganino (14:19.98)

You have been on guard probably for lots of valid reasons, your childhood, your I don’t know what, who told you what? But we show up in this world physically and vocally shaped by everything that’s happened to us. And then we think that all we need to do to be an effective communicator is put the words in the right order and stop saying But the sound of our voice is actually what the audience hears, not even fully the words, the pacing of our voice, the speed at which we do. If we’re on stage, I had this recently, I was reviewing someone’s video.

and the physical language is the third one. So verbal, voice, physical. And he was trying to have this moment where he was saying to his team, know, trust me, I’m with you, but he was moving backwards from them on stage. And I said, that is a signal to them of you’re hiding something, something isn’t right. And you’ve seen it before too, like, right? Like someone with a hand in their pocket. I think in the book, I use the example of Nixon and Kennedy. And when seen on TV, that debate that they had that was aired, Kennedy,

John Jantsch (15:01.662)

Right, right.

Mike Ganino (15:19.518)

overwhelmingly won because he looked calmer, he was tan from a resuscitation. Nixon had just had surgery and was sick and sweaty and pale and looked thin in his suit. But when people listened to it, they thought Nixon won because he had that more gravitas voice, that more distinguished voice. And so the way that we look, sound and move is not, we cannot separate it from the message we communicate to an audience. We simply can’t. It is a core part of what they take away from us.

John Jantsch (15:31.915)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:48.993)

So for somebody that just hasn’t done much of it wants to get started. mean, somebody comes to you and says, Hey, I’m, I’m in this new role or whatever it is, and I need to be doing a lot more. need a coach for this. mean, what are the free throws? Like what’s the, what’s the thing you have them do that is practice.

Mike Ganino (16:06.882)

The easy thing is to say, are all the low stakes places where you can try some of this on that like won’t matter? if you have a, I just did this with a chief finance officer. He was like, hey, I want to be a better communicator. I’m getting asked to speak at X, Y, and Z, go on podcasts. Their PR people are trying to get him onto like MSNBC to be, you know, a talking head in these places because it’s helpful to their business. And he said, so how do I practice? Do I get ready for that show? And I said, well, you don’t.

John Jantsch (16:09.9)

Yeah.

Mike Ganino (16:33.762)

get ready and the first time you deliver anything is in front of the real live audience where the stakes are super high and your nerves are going to take over. What kind of meetings do you have every week? Can you start off the meeting with some kind of story or metaphor that helps the team understand something? When are you going to go into a board meeting, which is relatively, you know, something a CFO does all the time, so not super high stakes, and how can you help them understand a situation that’s going on or

where some kind of money is being allocated using a story. How can you play with, for him, some of what we’re working on with his physicality and his ability to smile and soften his face on camera, because it all came across very harsh. So said, those are all things that you can, on your next Zoom call with your team, be more aware of how are you looking at the camera? How are you leveraging and playing with your voice? How are you using your physicality? And so,

All of those places are spots where we can test things. You know, even for me, so many ideas in the book are things that I’ve tested through group coaching calls with my clients, through live workshops with my clients, through being on podcasts like this and trying out different stories and seeing what resonates and saying, ooh, people seem to like that and mention it back to me. I ought to put that in a book, you know, which is the more high stakes version of doing a podcast or a group coaching Zoom call.

John Jantsch (17:49.675)

Yeah, you alluded to the Zoom call. I mean, we are on a lot of formats now, right? We’re on stages, but we’re also doing our own video. We are doing virtual presentations. We’re on podcasts. Do we need different stories, different approach, you know, for each of those?

Mike Ganino (18:08.482)

I think that the stories probably have some universalness to them. Maybe they’re told slightly differently because the context, you know, if you’re on a stage telling a story versus, and it’s part of a bigger insight in a keynote, that might be different than if you’re on a Zoom call with your team. But the medium definitely changes it. for folks, one of the big things that people get wrong with having the camera is they want to be looking at the audience, to see the audience on their little Zoom camera, on the little Zoom screens to connect with them.

But there’s a flaw in that for a couple of reasons. One is we have no idea what they’re looking at. And so someone makes a grimace. Well, they could be watching a TikTok that upset them, or they could have gotten a text message from someone. We have no idea. And then we respond to that thinking, I’m boring. Versus when we’re on camera, our job is to have a relationship with the piece of glass in front of us, to be able to look through the lens and to have enough energy that this thing that absorbs these cameras absorbs so much of our energy that we can still.

deliver what we want without being obsessed of having a live audience like we would on stage. So I think that the stories can have, you if you’ve got three or four good stories that work in your business to set it up, like you probably don’t need a whole bunch more, but understanding the difference of telling them in a, a stage, in a boardroom, sitting around a table, in an interview with someone or telling it to a camera and even here, right? The difference between doing it for

John Jantsch (19:17.483)

Yeah, yeah.

Mike Ganino (19:31.98)

social media versus doing it in a group coaching call. All of those are different mediums. And so that’s where you can leverage, know, voice can be different. Physicality can be different.

John Jantsch (19:39.319)

Right, right, right. Yeah, wouldn’t use your big booming projection voice with five people in a boardroom, right? You’d freak them out. You know, one of the things I, my one little tip, and you probably tell this to people all the time, but when I do, especially group Zoom calls, I turn my view off, camera view off, because I find myself looking at myself and I may be way over there at the corner of the screen as opposed to, then once that’s off, all there’s left to look at is the camera.

Mike Ganino (19:46.956)

Yeah, yeah.

Mike Ganino (19:58.54)

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Ganino (20:08.62)

Yeah, you know what I have? got this, I got an Elgato teleprompter and I have it on the front of my camera with the zoom screen of the person I’m talking to. So I actually am just seeing you right now through the glass and it’s quite helpful.

John Jantsch (20:09.047)

I

John Jantsch (20:20.277)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause you have to look at the camera at the same time. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I also have, this little, Plexo glass, camera holder. And so what it does is it, can put my camera in it and then I can move the camera anywhere I want. you know, it’s just one of those little screen, you know, those cameras you’d put on a screen. but I can, I can move it around that way. So, it’s really nice for doing a lot of that as well.

Mike Ganino (20:39.622)

nice.

Mike Ganino (20:44.12)

Yeah.

Mike Ganino (20:49.24)

fun.

John Jantsch (20:50.379)

Well, Mike, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to find out more about your work and obviously find a copy of Make A Scene?

Mike Ganino (20:59.756)

Yeah, I’m easy. Once you figure out how to spell Ganino, I’m usually the one you’re going to find. So G-A-N-I-N-O, Mikeganino.com. The book and all the information about it is at Mikeganino.com slash book. And it’s wherever you like to get your books. We’ve got it everywhere for you.

John Jantsch (21:14.123)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days soon out there on the road.

Mike Ganino (21:19.224)

Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (21:22.999)

Okay, you’re supposed to get a little…


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